Made for Hell

[PioMagnus]

I was discussing with a friend the question of if God makes some people for the purpose of damnation, that is to say, that some people are not given the necessary grace to be able to go to heaven.

He holds that Romans 9, especially 9:13-18 and 9:22, show that God does make some people purely for the purpose of damning them, that is, as objects of wrath.

How do we respond to this? What is the Catholic interpretation of these scriptures, and what scriptures can I use to show that God gives necessary grace to all, and that acceptance or rejection of that Grace is the cause of damnation?

 

[thistle]

I was discussing with a friend the question of if God makes some people for the purpose of damnation, that is to say, that some people are not given the necessary grace to be able to go to heaven.

He holds that Romans 9, especially 9:13-18 and 9:22, show that God does make some people purely for the purpose of damning them, that is, as objects of wrath.

How do we respond to this? What is the Catholic interpretation of these scriptures, and what scriptures can I use to show that God gives necessary grace to all, and that acceptance or rejection of that Grace is the cause of damnation?

That is totally wrong. The Church teaching is that nobody is predestined to go to Hell.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance.”

 

[Cajetan]

The Calvinist/Reformed doctrine of ‘double predestination’ (which is what your friend is espousing) is ultimately an over-simplification of what the Scriptures are telling us. Although Predestination is real and totally Scriptural (and it is a Catholic dogma), to say that people are ‘predestined’ to damnation is jumping the gun.

While problematic at some points (just in terms of misrepresenting the Calvinist doctrine), Jimmy Akin’s article “A Tiptoe Through TULIP” is a very helpful, quick resource on this issue. You can read it here:

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

 

[AndyF]

I was discussing with a friend the question of if God makes some people for the purpose of damnation, that is to say, that some people are not given the necessary grace to be able to go to heaven.

He holds that Romans 9, especially 9:13-18 and 9:22, show that God does make some people purely for the purpose of damning them, that is, as objects of wrath.

How do we respond to this? What is the Catholic interpretation of these scriptures, and what scriptures can I use to show that God gives necessary grace to all, and that acceptance or rejection of that Grace is the cause of damnation?

see: www.newadvent.org /Predestination/Reprobation of the Damned

Andy

 

[Eucharisted]

I was discussing with a friend the question of if God makes some people for the purpose of damnation, that is to say, that some people are not given the necessary grace to be able to go to heaven.

He holds that Romans 9, especially 9:13-18 and 9:22, show that God does make some people purely for the purpose of damning them, that is, as objects of wrath.

How do we respond to this? What is the Catholic interpretation of these scriptures, and what scriptures can I use to show that God gives necessary grace to all, and that acceptance or rejection of that Grace is the cause of damnation?

No one was made for hell. Scripture is clear that God wills all to be saved.

In fact, when God was thinking about us before He created us, He was thinking of us being admitted into His Kingdom. This is what Scripture means when it says God wills all to be saved.

 

[Galnextdoor]

II Peter 3; 9 Eph 1:4-6,9-11 Rom 8:15,28-30 I Tim 2:3-4
Mt 18:14

God knows who will turn from Him, but all men were created to know, love and serve the Lord and be happy with Him in heaven.

St. Thomas Aquinus and St. Augustine wrote about this.

 

[tobinatorstark]

That is totally wrong. The Church teaching is that nobody is predestined to go to Hell.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance.”

Thank you I agree you 100%

 

[ryanoneil]

I was discussing with a friend the question of if God makes some people for the purpose of damnation, that is to say, that some people are not given the necessary grace to be able to go to heaven.

He holds that Romans 9, especially 9:13-18 and 9:22, show that God does make some people purely for the purpose of damning them, that is, as objects of wrath.

How do we respond to this?

If I’m not mistaken, the vessels of wrath have prepared themselves for doom by rejecting the gospel. And Divine hardening does not cause a person to sin but is a disciplinary measure for those who are already resisting God.

If Paul was saying that God predestined the unbelievers of Israel for damnation, why would he be praying and working for thier salvation?

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God on their behalf is for salvation. (Rom 10:1)

in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them. (Rom 11:14)

What is the Catholic interpretation of these scriptures, and what scriptures can I use to show that God gives necessary grace to all, and that acceptance or rejection of that Grace is the cause of damnation?

**Jer 18:1
This word came to Jeremiah from the LORD:
2
Rise up, be off to the potter’s house; there I will give you my message.
3
I went down to the potter’s house and there he was, working at the wheel.
4
Whenever the object of clay which he was making turned out badly in his hand, he tried again, making of the clay another object of whatever sort he pleased.
5
Then the word of the Lord came to me:
6
Can I not do to you, house of Israel, as this potter has done? says the LORD. Indeed, like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, house of Israel.
7
Sometimes I threaten to uproot and tear down and destroy a nation or a kingdom.
8
But if that nation which I have threatened turns from its evil, I also repent of the evil which I threatened to do.
9
Sometimes, again, I promise to build up and plant a nation or a kingdom.
10
But if that nation does what is evil in my eyes, refusing to obey my voice, I repent of the good with which I promised to bless it.
11
And now, tell this to the men of Judah and the citizens of Jerusalem: Thus says the LORD: Take care! I am fashioning evil against you and making a plan. Return, each of you, from his evil way; reform your ways and your deeds.
12
But they will say, “No use! We will follow our own devices; each one of us will behave according to the stubbornness of his evil heart!” **

 

[MarcoPolo]

I was discussing with a friend the question of if God makes some people for the purpose of damnation, that is to say, that some people are not given the necessary grace to be able to go to heaven.

He holds that Romans 9, especially 9:13-18 and 9:22, show that God does make some people purely for the purpose of damning them, that is, as objects of wrath.

How do we respond to this? What is the Catholic interpretation of these scriptures, and what scriptures can I use to show that God gives necessary grace to all, and that acceptance or rejection of that Grace is the cause of damnation?

Read further in Romans and other of Paul’s writings to see that this interpretation is untenable.

*Titus 2:11 For the grace of God our Saviour hath appeared to all men

1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved…

Romans 11:32 For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.*

 

[MarcoPolo]

In another thread I also addressed a Calvinist’s use of Romans 9:

Additionally, no, the word “all” does not always mean “all.” However, in this conversation, there are defenders of Calvin’s position that only the elect are given grace by God, and the reprobate are never given the grace to be saved. So if the word “all” {in Titus 2:11} is only referring to the elect, then it is referring to what is described as the “few who enter the narrow gate.” (Mt 7:14). That renders this either a highly improbable interpretation of the word “all” or a completely untenable one. The verse would instead read, “for the grace of God has appeared to a few.”

Contrary to this notion of God withholding grace to some of mankind are these examples, some of which I cited earlier to no avail:

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved…

Romans 11:32 For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.Everyone has a chance to be saved. Although his exegesis remains absent, our good brother, Reformed, has apparently pitted the analogy of the potter in conflict with these verses and Christ’s mission.

There are at least three reasons why Romans 9 cannot not trump the verses I have cited. The first, is Paul’s musing of the phrases “what if God” made people for good or some for destruction (e.g. v. 22). By this hypothetical language, He simply demonstrates who is in command. The point being no one can supersede His will.

The second is because no two Scriptures cannot conflict. They all must be harmonized.

The third is what I have been articulating for a number of posts now, which is the God’s foreknowledge recognizing in advance from the beginning of time, who would cooperate with His grace and who wouldn’t. Those whom He “foreknew” would cooperate therefore were His “predestined.” (e.g. 1 chapter earlier, Rm 8:29). And thus, in Romans 9, those whom He foreknew to cooperate correspond to the noble (v. 21) and the those whom He foreknew to not freely cooperate still entered time and served “dishonorable” purposes. The analogy of the clay cannot go so far as to equate man as a completely passive, inanimate blob with no free will. To take the analogy that far would also be to contradict Scripture, especially since Calvinism teaches that those who go to hell go there of their own fault.

No matter how you slice the chapter, it does not refute, but rather is harmonized with, the rest of Scripture, that demonstrates God wills the salvation of all and so provides grace to all.