Magi and the Epiphany

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I am not sure this has been asked before, if so I apologize, I see in Matthew and Luke the story of Jesus’ birth and the visit by the Magi (Matthew 2), with the references to gold, frankincense, and myrrh. I had thought that the Magi were actually named e.g. Caspar, Balthazar, and Melchior. Is there any reference to the Magi by name in Sacred Scripture? If not then where in other Catholic text would it be found?
I have a friend that said they were told by their “Pastor” that the Magi did not visit Jesus until he was in his teens because it took the Magi several years to get to Him. In Matthew 2, it says that they found Him with Mary in a house. I had always thought they came on the Epiphany, which is consistent with all of the Nativity scenes we grew up with. I guess this is one of those stories that we have heard during our lifetime and assumed it was in Sacred Scripture.
 
wmscott said:
I am not sure this has been asked before, if so I apologize, I see in Matthew and Luke the story of Jesus’ birth and the visit by the Magi (Matthew 2), with the references to gold, frankincense, and myrrh. I had thought that the Magi were actually named e.g. Caspar, Balthazar, and Melchior. Is there any reference to the Magi by name in Sacred Scripture? If not then where in other Catholic text would it be found?
I have a friend that said they were told by their “Pastor” that the Magi did not visit Jesus until he was in his teens because it took the Magi several years to get to Him. In Matthew 2, it says that they found Him with Mary in a house. I had always thought they came on the Epiphany, which is consistent with all of the Nativity scenes we grew up with. I guess this is one of those stories that we have heard during our lifetime and assumed it was in Sacred Scripture.
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What scripture says is different from what we have learned via cultural and tradition.names of the wise men come from much later documents and adopted by the mases.There are no roots in scripture at all for these names As far as being Three magi- scripture doesn’t say that either. What it does say is that Three gifts where given. Being really expensive gifts it is a possiblity that a group of Magi could have gotten together and ’ went in ’ on a gift.the gifts are highly symbolic-Gold symbolic of Kingship- Frankincense- symbolic of priesthood- and myrrh symbolic of the death and burial jesus would have to go thru before the Glory of Easter.Hope this helps- as far as the Pastor-he doesn’t have a biblical leg to stand on:D
 
juliamajor said:
What scripture says is different from what we have learned via cultural and tradition.names of the wise men come from much later documents and adopted by the mases.There are no roots in scripture at all for these names As far as being Three magi- scripture doesn’t say that either. What it does say is that Three gifts where given. Being really expensive gifts it is a possiblity that a group of Magi could have gotten together and ’ went in ’ on a gift.the gifts are highly symbolic-Gold symbolic of Kingship- Frankincense- symbolic of priesthood- and myrrh symbolic of the death and burial jesus would have to go thru before the Glory of Easter.Hope this helps- as far as the Pastor-he doesn’t have a biblical leg to stand on:D
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Thanks for the info. Its like you said it has always been that way (cultural) and not realizing its not scriptural. I do agree that the “Pastor” is taking some very liberal (personal) interpretations with regards to this. Thanks again.
 
Note that they came at least 41 days after His birth; the Presentation in the Temple was at 41 days and had to have happened before the Magi got Herod riled.

Herod determined that He was less than two; so he killed all those under two.

My guess is that Herod was cautious; and He was about one.
 
Joe_Kelley said:
Note that they came at least 41 days after His birth; the Presentation in the Temple was at 41 days and had to have happened before the Magi got Herod riled.

Herod determined that He was less than two; so he killed all those under two.

My guess is that Herod was cautious; and He was about one.
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Your last point is excellent.

Btw in Zoroasterianism (the religion of the Magi) there were traditions of a savior being born under a star in a cave. Preparatio Evangelii.
 
Joe_Kelley said:
Note that they came at least 41 days after His birth; the Presentation in the Temple was at 41 days and had to have happened before the Magi got Herod riled.

Herod determined that He was less than two; so he killed all those under two.

My guess is that Herod was cautious; and He was about one.
Click to expand...
Yes, I was reading something along those lines in Luke and Matthew. Thanks for this info
 
I remember a priest giving a very good sermon about the magi - the marvelous way God prepares in advance.

He noted that the magi very probably came from Persia, a land to which the Jews had been exiled in 500’s BC. Coincidentilly ??, the Persian religion was monotheistic. (I think he said it was the only monotheistic pagan religion of the time.) This no doubt made them respectful and open to learning about the Jewish faith. They probably read the OT Scripture and handed on the knowledge to subsequent generations.

Nita
 
Joe_Kelley said:
Note that they came at least 41 days after His birth; the Presentation in the Temple was at 41 days and had to have happened before the Magi got Herod riled.

Herod determined that He was less than two; so he killed all those under two.

My guess is that Herod was cautious; and He was about one.
Click to expand...
I am thinking that this may be a case similar to just when is Jesus’ birthday, or when is the Epiphany, Easter, or any other fixed date on the calendar that relates to a significant event in biblical history. Does it really matter, as long as we take the time to celebrate it and honor Him? I am thinking that we may also want to take into consideration the significance of numbers and what they represent along with the message they are trying to convey. Just a thought.
 
juliamajor said:
the gifts are highly symbolic-Gold symbolic of Kingship- Frankincense- symbolic of priesthood- and myrrh symbolic of the death and burial jesus would have to go thru before the Glory of Easter.Hope this helps- as far as the Pastor-he doesn’t have a biblical leg to stand on:D
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Actually Franincense is to show His Divinity, not His priesthood…at least that’s the way I’ve learned it.
 
Joe_Kelley said:
Note that they came at least 41 days after His birth; the Presentation in the Temple was at 41 days and had to have happened before the Magi got Herod riled.

Herod determined that He was less than two; so he killed all those under two.

My guess is that Herod was cautious; and He was about one.
Click to expand...
Correct. And Joseph and Mary may have found a house in Bethlem after all the census folks cleared out. Or they might have gone back to Nazareth, but Herod killed the babies in bethlemhem because that’s what the scriptures fortold.

The point isn’t the specific day or place or even the numbers of wise men or their names. The point is that even in pagan/gentile cultures people knew about Jesus and revered him.
 
Nita said:
I remember a priest giving a very good sermon about the magi - the marvelous way God prepares in advance.

He noted that the magi very probably came from Persia, a land to which the Jews had been exiled in 500’s BC. Coincidentilly ??, the Persian religion was monotheistic. (I think he said it was the only monotheistic pagan religion of the time.) This no doubt made them respectful and open to learning about the Jewish faith. They probably read the OT Scripture and handed on the knowledge to subsequent generations.

Nita
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I agree. The prophet Daniel was the leading wiseman in their court during the exile. They would have studied all his learning very carefully.
 
wmscott said:
I am thinking that this may be a case similar to just when is Jesus’ birthday, or when is the Epiphany, Easter, or any other fixed date on the calendar that relates to a significant event in biblical history. Does it really matter, as long as we take the time to celebrate it and honor Him? I am thinking that we may also want to take into consideration the significance of numbers and what they represent along with the message they are trying to convey. Just a thought.
Click to expand...
Interetingly enough, Isaiah predicts that the Magi will come, as indicated in this coming Sunday’s first reading.

Furthermore, according to Pope Benedict XVI, the original feast of Hannukah was celebrated on December 25th, the day when Judas Maccabbeus cleansed the temple, removing the statue of Zeus from the Holy of Holies.

I don’t have my book with me; however, Digitonomy started a thread on Luke and the date of Christmas in this particular forum.
 
Sr_Sally said:
Correct. And Joseph and Mary may have found a house in Bethlem after all the census folks cleared out. Or they might have gone back to Nazareth, but Herod killed the babies in bethlemhem because that’s what the scriptures fortold.
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I think at this time, they were living in Bethlehem, because they didnt take up residence in Nazareth until they returned from Egypt, and they didnt even leave for Egypt until after the Magi depart.
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Nita:
He noted that the magi very probably came from Persia, a land to which the Jews had been exiled in 500’s BC. Coincidentilly ??, the Persian religion was monotheistic. (I think he said it was the only monotheistic pagan religion of the time.) This no doubt made them respectful and open to learning about the Jewish faith. They probably read the OT Scripture and handed on the knowledge to subsequent generations.
Click to expand...
Isa Almisry:
Btw in Zoroasterianism (the religion of the Magi) there were traditions of a savior being born under a star in a cave. Preparatio Evangelii.
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Right, the Magi were Zoroastrian. Zoroastrian is extremeley interesting to study, as is the relationship between Judaism and Zoroastrianism. Nita notes that they may have picked up some knoweldge from the Jews; this is possible. Many historians think that the Jews ended up picking up more from the Zoroastrians, such as certain messianic ideas, the battle between good and evil at the end of time, etc.

Check out sullivan-county.com/z/zor6.htm#6 for a quick look at the similarities between zoroasrianism and judaism

Heres what i like best about Jesus’ youth: Both of the nations where the Jews were held in Captivity, Egypt, Persia, play a large part in the Nativity story. Jesus’ family goes to Egypt seeking safety, just as the Jews went there seeking relief from a famine. And Persian Magi acknowledge Jesus as a divine king of the people their country had subjugated earlier.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Your last point is excellent.

Btw in Zoroasterianism (the religion of the Magi) there were traditions of a savior being born under a star in a cave. Preparatio Evangelii.
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there is also no scriptural evidence of the religion of the Magi, that is conjecture from the practice of that sect studying the stars, and some of their leaders being designated as wise men.
 
Frankincense symbolizes priesthood, not divinity.

Oh, and it is correct that the Magi visited Christ after he was a bit older (though by no means in his teens). The Scriptural evidence for this is because the Greek word for “infant” is changed to “child” to describe the boy visited. No real theological ramification… just some linguistics.
 
wmscott said:
I am not sure this has been asked before, if so I apologize, I see in Matthew and Luke the story of Jesus’ birth and the visit by the Magi (Matthew 2), with the references to gold, frankincense, and myrrh. I had thought that the Magi were actually named e.g. Caspar, Balthazar, and Melchior. Is there any reference to the Magi by name in Sacred Scripture? If not then where in other Catholic text would it be found?
Click to expand...

As to the names as such: the first two are sort of in the OT - Melchior seems not to be.​

“Gaspar” is based on
  • the title Rab-shag - i.e., the Rabshakeh (Rabsaces in the Vulgate) of 2 Kings & Isaiah; but with the order of the syllables reversed.
    The Rab-shag was an Assyrian official of high rank at the Assyrian court. It is most unlikely that those Christians who re-used this title as a personal name for one of the Magi knew more of the Rabshakeh than the OT says.
As for “Balthasar”
A possible source for the name “Melchior” is:

The Ascension of Isaiah
And Sammael Malchira will serve Manasseh, and execute all his desire, and he will become a…
  • www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ascension.html
    “Malchira” is here a name for Sammael/Mastema/Satan. It too may have been re-used, like the other names given to the Magi, to make the same point. (Manasseh in this text is the king of Judah of that name.)
Hope that helps.
I have a friend that said they were told by their “Pastor” that the Magi did not visit Jesus until he was in his teens because it took the Magi several years to get to Him. In Matthew 2, it says that they found Him with Mary in a house. I had always thought they came on the Epiphany, which is consistent with all of the Nativity scenes we grew up with. I guess this is one of those stories that we have heard during our lifetime and assumed it was in Sacred Scripture.
Click to expand...

Bits of it are in Scripture - other bits are not.​

 
There seems to be a tradition in Eastern Christianity that says that there are twelve Magi. Numerical symbolism is very important here.

Matthew
 
St_Aloysius said:
Frankincense symbolizes priesthood, not divinity.
QUOTE]

From Haydock commentary:
haydock1859.tripod.com/id14.html

Divers of the ancient Fathers take notice of the mystical signification of these offerings; that by gold was signified the tribute they paid to him, as to their king; by incense, that he was God; and by myrrh, (with which dead bodies used to be embalmed) that now he was also become a mortal man.
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