Magi and the Nativity Star? (MERGED threads)

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Darryl_B said:
What then were they following to Jerusalem? Gut feeling?
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Please explain to me: why would the Magi have to follow anything? They followed a road. The Magi came from the East and were near the capital when at the dawn in the eastern part of the sky they saw the rise of an unusual star. They decided a new king was born in the capital and came there to worship him. When the Magi arrived to the capital the star became invisible in daylight.
 
AIR said:
Please explain to me: why would the Magi have to follow anything? They followed a road. The Magi came from the East and were near the capital when at the dawn in the eastern part of the sky they saw the rise of an unusual star. They decided a new king was born in the capital and came there to worship him. When the Magi arrived to the capital the star became invisible in daylight.
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The Magi “followed” as you say because they clearly studied the heavens for signs. Most people oif the day were well acquainted with the moving of the constellations since in Summer, they slept outside due to the heat. They were well versed (you should pardon the pun) in the prophesy of a Messiah.
The didn’t need to go to the capital. They went to Bethlehem “house of bread”.
Of course stars are not visible by day. What has that got to do with anything.
:whacky:
I can’t help but wonder: what is the point of all this? What are you trying to assert? just come out with it.

Here’s another article for reading.
newadvent.org/cathen/09527a.htm

Merry Christmas
 
pianistclare said:
The didn’t need to go to the capital. They went to Bethlehem “house of bread”.
Of course stars are not visible by day. What has that got to do with anything.
I can’t help but wonder: what is the point of all this? What are you trying to assert? just come out with it.
Merry Christmas
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  1. I don’t understand why you write: “The didn’t need to go to the capital” ???
    Matthew writes that first the Magi came to Jerusalem because they expected to find and worship a new-born king in the capital. They went to Bethlehem only because Herod suggested them to go there.
  2. You write: “Of course stars are not visible by day. What has that got to do with anything”.
    It is important to emphasize this point in order to explain firstly why the Magi could not see and show the star in Jerusalem, and secondly to come to the next question of our discussion:
    When according to Matthew did the Magi see the star for the second time?
  3. Merry Christmas to all.
 
AIR said:
Please explain to me: why would the Magi have to follow anything? They followed a road. The Magi came from the East and were near the capital when at the dawn in the eastern part of the sky they saw the rise of an unusual star. They decided a new king was born in the capital and came there to worship him. When the Magi arrived to the capital the star became invisible in daylight.
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That doesn’t sound like Magi to me. That sounds more like vagrants making random interpretations.

I would prefer to think of the Magi as being learned, educated, familiar with texts, familiar with histories, learned in prophecies, expert in their field. Not just random opportunists who have to stop off at the local shops to acquire an unexpected present.
 
AIR said:
I agree with you that “their journey took a long time”, but according to Matthew they saw the Nativity star two times: the first time they “saw his star when it rose” Mt.2:2 and the second time “they saw the star” Mt 2:10 standing “over the place where the child was” Mt 2:9.

Merry Christmas
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I guess we’re using the word “saw” differently. If I say “I saw Bob last week,” that doesn’t necessarily mean I laid eyes on him only once during that week.

Merry Christmas!
 
Darryl_B said:
I would prefer to think of the Magi as being learned, educated, familiar with texts, familiar with histories, learned in prophecies, expert in their field.
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I do not know, but I have no objections. At the same time, I’m sure they had a very modest appearance and they were very excited with their recent observation of the rising of an unusual star. This explains firstly their behaviour in the streets of Jerusalem and secondly the fact that King Herod did not give them any escort. But the latter should be discussed in the thread “Herod and the Magi”. In this thread it would be desirable to allow the assumption that the first time the Magi saw the star near Jerusalem.

Merry Christmas!
 
captainrick said:
I guess we’re using the word “saw” differently. If I say “I saw Bob last week,” that doesn’t necessarily mean I laid eyes on him only once during that week.
Merry Christmas!
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And when you say: “This morning I saw the sunrise” how many times have you seen it?

Merry Christmas!
 
AIR said:
I do not know, but I have no objections. At the same time, I’m sure they had a very modest appearance and they were very excited with their recent observation of the rising of an unusual star. This explains firstly their behaviour in the streets of Jerusalem and secondly the fact that King Herod did not give them any escort. But the latter should be discussed in the thread “Herod and the Magi”. In this thread it would be desirable to allow the assumption that the first time the Magi saw the star near Jerusalem.

Merry Christmas!
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Merry Christmas to you too my friend.

In their own land the Magi waited advent, knowing the scriptures of the Hebrews, but their knowledge extended far beyond that. They did not know the time and the season, so they waited in their own country, not just on the outskirts of Jerusalem wandering in circles around Jerusalem until they saw the sign. No instead, they first saw the sign in their own land, searched the sacred writings and found reference in the Jewish writings of a King. Having found that they undertook their journey. Having stocked up gifts worthy of a King, they embarked on their journey in the direction of the star.

Herod of course would not provide escort, if he did do that, his cover would be blown. The Magi would not need revelation to return to their land an alternate route. Instead they would have known Herod’s motive, and then they would have wandered round and round Jerusalem.
 
pianistclare said:
The Magi “followed” as you say because they clearly studied the heavens for signs.

Merry Christmas
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My friend, merry Christmas, and I do entirely agree with what you have said. This information is not just for you.

The Magi might have been familiar with Numbers 24:17

A Star will come out of Jacob, a Scepter will Rise out of Israel.

The Magi see a Star, and then link it to Scepter.

Source: A gentile prophet named Balaam, when the Spirit of God came upon him.
 
AIR said:
I do not know, but I have no objections. At the same time, I’m sure they had a very modest appearance and they were very excited with their recent observation of the rising of an unusual star. This explains firstly their behaviour in the streets of Jerusalem and secondly the fact that King Herod did not give them any escort. But the latter should be discussed in the thread “Herod and the Magi”. In this thread it would be desirable to allow the assumption that the first time the Magi saw the star near Jerusalem.

Merry Christmas!
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What is the point to this nonsense thread?
 
When I asked the question “Where did the Magi see the Nativity star for the first time,” or more precisely, “Where were the Magi when they saw the Nativity star for the first time”, I was expecting the traditional answer "The Magi saw the star when they were in their country in the East” (see posts #20,#28,#30,#33,#40,#49). But Matthews writes only: “We saw his star at its rising and have come to do him homage” usccb.org/bible/matthew/2 . I have many reasons to understand it as: this morning “we saw his star at its rising and have come to do him homage”, that is the Magi saw the rise of the star near Jerusalem. My interpretation is simpler than the traditional one and in a better agreement with Matthew’s text.
 
If they observed the star from it’s heliacal rising, each day the star would be visible for longer, and for that star to reach it’s zenith at midnight it would take about 6 months of star watching.
 
Re: how the Magi looked

Assuming that we are talking “Magi” as in “Persian Zoroastrian fire priests with excellent astrological/astronomical knowledge and a strong belief in angels,” they would have been pretty darned obvious foreigners in Jerusalem. Same thing if they were Chaldean astrologer/astronomers.

First off, most Zoroastrian Magi lived in Persia. Persia was in a perpetual cold war/hot war cycle with Rome, so it’d be like a bunch of your nation’s archrivals suddenly arriving in Iowa to look for the new Emperor/President/King.

Secondly, Magi fascinated the Greco-Roman world. Everybody knew that they were Wise and Knew Things. They did lots of calendar observations of the celestial bodies. That’s why you sometimes had people like Simon Magus (who was a homeboy from Syria who’d never done anything Zoroastrian) trying to call themselves Magi, the same way somebody today might try to impress someone by saying they’re secretly a Knight Templar or a Navy SEAL.

Thirdly, Persians often wore riding trousers, or riding trousers under robes. In a Greco-Roman world full of people in robes of various kinds, that made you instantly noticeable. The only other people who wore that kind of thing were crazy steppes barbarians, or crazy Northern barbarians. Persians were ultra-civilized, so the contrast freaked out Romans. A lot.
 
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