Main Reason For Atheism

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SIAMESECAT

In my opinion, the “creator”, if it exists, is no longer involved in world affairs.

What would be the point of going to the trouble of creating a universe and then being no longer involved with it?

And when you answer this question, remember that you will being trying to read the mind of God; therefore you must assume that God has a mind to read.

And remember that Isaac Newton, the greatest genius of his time and possibly any other, was not taken in by the Deists. He was very much a Christian, if not a Catholic.
 
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Monarchy:
No, I am attempting to show you what I percieve to be a hole in your logic. Thusly if God is not morally culpable for the indefinite torture of souls, because you have a ‘choice’ (believe or else), I would not be morally culpable for shooting you as I gave you a ‘choice’ (give me your money or else).
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this isn’t exactly right. the choice that people are given is the choice to go to heaven or to hell; those souls in hell choose to go there, and subsequently choose never to leave. god doesn’t actually do anything other than respect those choices.
 
john doran:
this isn’t exactly right. the choice that people are given is the choice to go to heaven or to hell; those souls in hell choose to go there, and subsequently choose never to leave. god doesn’t actually do anything other than respect those choices.
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hey, he chose to get shot, I warned him didn’t I? I didn’t do anything but respect his choice to get shot.:rolleyes:
 
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Monarchy:
hey, he chose to get shot, I warned him didn’t I? I didn’t do anything but respect his choice to get shot.:rolleyes:
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if you are just repeating yourself, then, no, this is still not the same thing, since you shoot him, and that’s entirely disanalogous to what happens when someone goes to hell.

if, on the other hand, you are subtly redescibing your example to be more like a situation where i inform someone that i will be, say, engaging in target practice on the firing range at 2pm, and then that person goes down to the gun club and jumps in front of one of my bullets, thereby committing suicide, then fair enough: this is definitely closer to the mark. but note also that i am not culpable for the death of the suicide. just as god isn’t culpable for any individual’s choice to go to and remain in hell.
 
I do not reject the divine, but I do reject the God you are describing here, and your tortured mental gymnastics in trying to explain how that which created everything and is all powerful is still not culpable for the eternal doom of the near powerless creatures thus created.

If you could go back and read these last several posts through fresh eyes, the question of why so many people are atheists would be answered.

cheddar
 
Gilbert Keith:
SIAMESECAT

In my opinion, the “creator”, if it exists, is no longer involved in world affairs.

What would be the point of going to the trouble of creating a universe and then being no longer involved with it?

And when you answer this question, remember that you will being trying to read the mind of God; therefore you must assume that God has a mind to read.

And remember that Isaac Newton, the greatest genius of his time and possibly any other, was not taken in by the Deists. He was very much a Christian, if not a Catholic.
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I dont really believe in any creator, but since I have no idea how the universe got started, maybe there was some “force” that created it, that could be like a good. I dont know. But then what would have made the creator? Endless cycle. Makes my head hurt to think of how time never begins and never ends.
 
CHEDDARSOX

I do not reject the divine, but I do reject the God you are describing here, and your tortured mental gymnastics in trying to explain how that which created everything and is all powerful is still not culpable for the eternal doom of the near powerless creatures thus created.

DOOM has nothing to do with going to heaven or hell. In Catholic theology we believe in free will. We CHOOSE our end, and God beckons us to glory, not perdition… The doomsayers are really the atheists who believe that everything is predetermined. They even believe their refusal to believe in God is predetermined and they have no ability to believe in God. Thus they shift their own responsibility to some dark, unknown and sinister FORCE.

If you don’t believe me, read some Sartre, Camus, Russell and Santayana. Fatalists all. Atheists all.

Now there’s real DOOM for ya, and plenty of it!!!
 
Gilbert Keith:
SIAMESECAT

In my opinion, the “creator”, if it exists, is no longer involved in world affairs.

What would be the point of going to the trouble of creating a universe and then being no longer involved with it?

And when you answer this question, remember that you will being trying to read the mind of God; therefore you must assume that God has a mind to read.

And remember that Isaac Newton, the greatest genius of his time and possibly any other, was not taken in by the Deists. He was very much a Christian, if not a Catholic.
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Just because Sir Isaac Newton was a Christian isn’t an argument for believing in God. There are many geniuses of modern times who don’t believe. Should I also follow them?

How about the very devout Muslims who fly themselves into buildings? Are they an argument for believing in God?
 
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cheddarsox:
I do not reject the divine, but I do reject the God you are describing here, and your tortured mental gymnastics in trying to explain how that which created everything and is all powerful is still not culpable for the eternal doom of the near powerless creatures thus created.

If you could go back and read these last several posts through fresh eyes, the question of why so many people are atheists would be answered.

cheddar
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i’m not sure if this is addressed to me…

at any rate, i am unsure what to make of this post: either your use of loaded descriptors like “tortured”, “all powerful”, “doom”, and “near powerless” serve a rational purpose - i.e. they play a semantic role in a deductive or inductive argument - or they are simply expressions of strong feeling on your part.

if the former, then i’m afraid i can’t see what you’re driving at - at best the facial sense of what you say is inaccurate, at worst, it’s utterly false.

if the latter, then it just doesn’t work: my emotional make-up is such that i don’t find the existence of (even horrifying) evil confusing or upsetting in any way at all - it makes perfect sense to me.
 
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elwedriddsche:
Another reason for atheism.
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funny you should say that - my own skepticism eventually led me back to theism.

“skepticism” is closer to “caution” than it is to the resolute incredulity i most often see displayed by self-professed skeptics.
 
bapcathluth

Just because Sir Isaac Newton was a Christian isn’t an argument for believing in God.

Nor was the fact offered as a proof for the existence of a personal God. It was offered only to show that Newton, far and away the most brilliant mind of his day, was not taken in by the Deists. Make what you like of that.

You really have to be careful about taking quotes out of context and pretending that they say anything other than what they say.

That aside, if you are a Deist, I would like to hear how you can prove Deism against the existence of a personal God.

If you are an atheist or agnostic, what appeals to you in either of those positions?
 
john doran

*funny you should say that - my own skepticism eventually led me back to theism.
*
Interesting. I had the same experience. I got weary of the dogmatic assumptions of atheism that struck me as having even less proof for them than the assumptions of religion. The more I learned about religion, the more logical it seemed to me … and it certainly had beyond doubt the greater appeal of beauty, hope, and virtue.
 
john doran:
if the latter, then it just doesn’t work: my emotional make-up is such that i don’t find the existence of (even horrifying) evil confusing or upsetting in any way at all - it makes perfect sense to me.
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Yes, the words I chose were chosen due to strong emotion I my part.

I understand that the explanations for why your God behaves the way the church teaches he does make sense to you. I also understand why they don’t make sense to many others.

I don’t believe the divine needs to “make sense” to humans. But I do find the divine to be consistent unto itself, and consistent with the workings of the universe. I do not find the divine to behave with human types of emotions or behaviors, so there is no need to define the workings of the divine using human terminology or metaphore. The same with “evil”. It does make sense to me, because it is consistent with the workings of the universe. Doesn’t make it palatable, but I am more able to face it due to my understanding of it.

My posts are simply my ideas on the discussion taking place. There is no need to take them at anything but face value. No agenda but to share my ideas.

I do find the teachings of the church to often turn to tortured mental gymnastics to explain dichotomies, weave old teachings and traditions to new understandings. I have to say that often I think the church puts more energy into saving face and developing convuluted theology and doctrine than it does in sharing the truth about god. That is just my take on it.

I have been involved in a number of discussions on this forum reguarding why some people don’t believe in Catholicism, or christianity or any god at all. And with some regularity people come up with lists of convuluted reasons why. And people tell the non believers that they are here with hidden agendas, or because they secretly hope to be converted, or what ever. But people have a hard time accepting that many don’t believe because they see no truth in what the church has to offer. Sometimes it is as simple as that.

Pretty much the same reason you don’t belong to another religion, because you found what you are seeking in Catholicism.

cheddar
 
Gilbert Keith:
DOOM has nothing to do with going to heaven or hell. In Catholic theology we believe in free will. We CHOOSE our end, and God beckons us to glory, not perdition… The doomsayers are really the atheists who believe that everything is predetermined. They even believe their refusal to believe in God is predetermined and they have no ability to believe in God. Thus they shift their own responsibility to some dark, unknown and sinister FORCE.

If you don’t believe me, read some Sartre, Camus, Russell and Santayana. Fatalists all. Atheists all.

Now there’s real DOOM for ya, and plenty of it!!!
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Maybe that’s why I am not an atheist either…Though the one’s I know personally and in real time do not believe all is predetermined. Most atheists I know do not practice it as a religion, reading and studying it etc, belonging to atheist clubs and the like.

cheddar
 
Gilbert Keith:
MAIN REASON FOR ATHEISM

What is the main reason atheists are atheists?

(1) Is it that they cannot believe God would create a world with so much evil in it?

(2) Is it that they find the idea of God intellectually unsupportable?

(3) Is it that God presents an authority figure which they are by temperament unable to submit to?

(4) Is it that they find God (especially the Christian God) an obstacle to charting their own moral code?

(5) Is it that they are conformists to the fashionable mode of 20th century thought inherited from Nietzsche and others?

(6) Is it that they have inherited atheism from their parents?

(7) Is it that they have inherited atheism from the media and/or academia?

(8) Is it a combination of any or all of the above reasons?

ARE THERE OTHER REASONS?

Thanks for any interest in this thread!
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All those are great.

How about this-

They are afraid they may give more love than they get in return. In other words, their faith and love may be wasted if there is no God.
 
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Monarchy:
Did they hold the Atheists and such to the same standards (no blessed be or such)? If not complain, they are being unfair.
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The argument was pretty much the same as many “no win” type debates. My point of view was uncompromisingly wrong in their view. Nothing I posted on that site was acceptable to the moderators. They deleted my posts. Eventually the webmaster emailed me and told me that I “didn’t fit” the forum. I guess I just decided that the whole effort wasn’t worth it in the end.
 
Yeah this question is as useless as asking a question why do people
in religion now that I come to think about it.
 
MONARCHY

*I do find the teachings of the church to often turn to tortured mental gymnastics to explain dichotomies, weave old teachings and traditions to new understandings. I have to say that often I think the church puts more energy into saving face and developing convuluted theology and doctrine than it does in sharing the truth about god. That is just my take on it.
*
These remarks seem to indicate that you are typical of atheists who visit Christian boards. Like Monarchy, you are here to attack religion, not merely to defend or explain atheism. Then you turn around and say you have no agenda to convert us to your way of thinking.

This is disengenuous, to put it mildly.
 
coyote

My point of view was uncompromisingly wrong in their view. Nothing I posted on that site was acceptable to the moderators. They deleted my posts. Eventually the webmaster emailed me and told me that I “didn’t fit” the forum. I guess I just decided that the whole effort wasn’t worth it in the end.

I had a similar experience at an atheist board some years ago. I caught up an atheist in a false statement. He had quoted Voltaire as an atheist. I referred him to Voltaire’s essay On Atheism, which resoundingly rejects atheism. For my trouble I was severely scolded by the moderator. Later I was denied access to the site.

So much for the myth of liberal atheism.
 
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