Main Reason For Atheism

[Gilbert_Keith]

Siginbeauty

And just because he doesn’t agree with you means he is attacking religion???
Of course he’s attacking religion. Why do you think an atheist visits this forum? I don’t mind that he attacks religion. As I said above, this is a debate forum. What I mind is that he denies he is attacking religion. This is absurd. Read post # 101 again. Is he defending religion? Is he defending atheism? No, he is attacking religion. Let him admit that is why he is here.

I’d love to hear him defend atheism for once! I’d love to hear Monarchy say what attracts him to atheism. If he says what attracts him to atheism is that it defies and attacks religion, I can live with that. At least the truth is out.

We can go from there.

But you seem anxious to enable him by denying with him that he attacks Christianity. I know many Christians, including Catholics, who bow and scrape to atheists. Not so in the PSALMS, where it says “The fool in his heart says there is no God.” Are you a biblical Christian? No doubt you know that passage. Do you disagree with it?

By the way, when I talked about the Church I was obviously referring to the both the physical and spiritual Church. Do you know any Church that does not have buildings?

 

[Singinbeauty]

Do you know any Church that does not have buildings?

I believe that the CHURCH that Jesus implimented should not have a certain building that people convene in. The early church met in homes and worshipped for hours in those homes. They studied scripture together in these homes in small groups. The Church that Jesus spoke of was US. The Body of Christ. Not a building you walk into. But of course this is just my interpretation… Are you going to accuse me of attacking those who think that going to church is what saves you?

But you seem anxious to enable him by denying with him that he attacks Christianity. I know many Christians, including Catholics, who bow and scrape to atheists. Not so in the PSALMS, where it says “The fool in his heart says there is no God.” Are you a biblical Christian? No doubt you know that passage. Do you disagree with it?

But see I don’t see that he is attacking Christianity. I see that he is misinformed on some things. That he misinterprets somethings but I have not yet (even in post# 101 as you keep insisting on me reading it) that he is meaning to attack. God brought him here for a reason. He is searching. We shouldn’t view his accusations (if that is what he means them to be) or misinformed statements as a means of attack but as a way for him to be searching christianity looking for answers. We should (no matter what we FEEL he is putting behind his questions) answer his statements and thoughts with LOVE and UNDERSTANDING followed by a touch (ok, more than a touch, a HUGE wallop) of knowledge so that he can make sense and perhaps begin to see our God as a loving one instead of the hateful one he perceives Him to be.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Singinbeauty

We should (no matter what we FEEL he is putting behind his questions) answer his statements and thoughts with LOVE and UNDERSTANDING followed by a touch (ok, more than a touch, a HUGE wallop) of knowledge so that he can make sense and perhaps begin to see our God as a loving one instead of the hateful one he perceives Him to be.

Ever heard of tough love? Perhaps you don’t believe in it.

Tough love means that you do not let someone get away with telling you one thing and doing another. Paul calls it “admonishing” and he highly recommends it.

Moreover, you keep insisting that Monarchy is not attacking. Anyone who reads post # 101 can see that it his own eloquent answer to a previous post in which he insisted that he was here only to defend atheism, not to attack Christians or Christianity.

When Monarchy owns up to what he is here for, all this discussion will blow over, because he is certainly allowed to attack … whereas he is not allowed to attack and pretend (with your help) that he is not attacking.

By the way, we are still waiting to hear from him about all the things that make atheism so defensible … or attractive, which is the real theme of this thread. Wouldn’t you also like to hear his answer to that question?

I’ll be off the computer for the next 7 hours.

Thanks.

P.S. Homes are buildings too.

 

[john_doran]

Monarchy:

no he says “choose between being with me or torture”.

and what’s the problem with that? it’s up to you…

if i tell you, “look - if you put your hand on the hot stove element, you’ll get burned and it will hurt”, and then you put your hand on the element and suffer a painful injury, am i culpable for the harm you undergo?

the only way to motivate your argument is to assume that god has a duty to prevent people from choosing incorrectly…and why should anyone believe that?

 

[Monarchy]

Sorry I can only drop in quickly and I will be gone for the next three days, but I will be back on Monday and I will continue with the discussion then. I am not abandoning the discussion.

 

[Mike_O]

Monarchy:

It is not a ‘fact’ that there is a god.

Incorrect.

The existence of God can be convincingly proven rationally.

Read:

members.aol.com/cmor923905/

 

[siamesecat]

Monarchy:

Could you honestly chose to believe in something for which there is no proof? Unicorns for instance? Bigfoot, Alien abductions, Oiji(sp?) boards, leprechauns, faires, telekenisis, etc…? Can you just turn off you reason center and believe in them (assuming you don’t already)?

What makes you think I haven’t? Because I’m an atheist? I would wager I spend more time thinking about religion then most people. I would like to believe in god, I really would. It would be nice to believe that there is someone/something out there that loves me and wants to help. But unfortunately when I use my reasoning skills, I see absoulutly no reason to believe. There are several things in the bible that I find absoulutly moraly reprehensable. To ‘Chose’ to belive would mean I need to abandon reason and morality, which I will not do.

i feel the same way about believing in big foot and about trying to find religion…i too would like to think there is a heaven and someone watching over me…but I just dont. Same way i dont believe in santa.

 

[TTM]

I haven’t read any of the replies, but as a former atheist/agnostic, I can tell you that pride, peer pressure, and fear of ridicule are big factors. You see, people need to feel accepted and valued (because every human being was created to pursue a relationship with God, the only being who could provide those things fully and unconditionally). If becoming a Christian meant; (a) admitting wrongs in what one currently believes; (b) not getting along with one’s peers, or; (c) being seen as a “strange” person, and to risk being mocked; then the chances are, you’d make up any excuse (eg. “it’s unscientific”, “I disagree on philosophical basis”, etc.) not to believe.

So. I think the best thing we as Catholics and Christians can do is to love them as they are, and to make them feel valued (for men) and cherished (more for women) because they’re made in God’s image, and are in search of goodness and truth (that’s why they feel the need to be valued). Of course, that means we have to work on our personal holiness first.

Bless you all!
TTM

 

[TTM]

siamesecat:

i feel the same way about believing in big foot and about trying to find religion…i too would like to think there is a heaven and someone watching over me…but I just dont. Same way i dont believe in santa.

Yah, but no intelligent adults believes in Santa, but millions do believe that Christ the man-God died and rose from the dead. I understand that it is something totally strange to you, but I ask you for now just to keep an open mind. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Every blessing,
TTM

 

[TTM]

Maranatha:

As a Catholic, I believe even an Atheist can go to heaven. If an Atheist is trying, to the best of his ability, to search for truth, then he is oriented toward God. The act of denying his existence does not hurt God nearly as much as being apathetic altogether.

Agreed!
Mike O:

Incorrect.

The existence of God can be convincingly proven rationally.

Read:

members.aol.com/cmor923905/

Hi Mike,

I do agree that there is a strong and rational case for God’s existence, but I’m not sure that we should be so confrontational about it. Afterall, they’re in search for God too - every human being is, since we cannot help but to pursue good (evil are perversions of goodness). Instead of pointing out how wrong they are (which is a debatable point anyway, since it is through faith, and not fact, that we come to trust God), let us be a witness for God’s goodness and God’s love. As Dr. Peter Kreeft (the Catholic philosopher) points out, rational arguments can be refuted, if one is keen enough to do so, but there are no arguments against the smiles of the Saints.

God bless!

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

TTM

*I can tell you that pride, peer pressure, and fear of ridicule are big factors. *

Good point. The psychologist Paul Vitz, author of a book on atheism, Faith of the Fatherless, agrees with you. In the Introduction he talks about his own loss of faith as a result of entering the field of psychology and realizing that he was an outsider by virtue of his faith. He got the cold shoulder from colleagues until he became “politically correct.”

 

[TTM]

Gilbert Keith:

Good point. The psychologist Paul Vitz, author of a book on atheism, Faith of the Fatherless, agrees with you. In the Introduction he talks about his own loss of faith as a result of entering the field of psychology and realizing that he was an outsider by virtue of his faith. He got the cold shoulder from colleagues until he became “politically correct.”

Yah, I’m not surprised.

For Catholics and Christians, I do have one advice that has helped me personally to overcome this, and it’s all about our self-worth. You see, every human being (as I said in the posts earlier) wants to be affirmed and cherished. As soon as we enter an environment where we would be ridiculed for our faith, we feel under attack, since we place our self-worth in what others think of us. In other words, we take their ridicule of our faith as a criticism of our capacity to judge reality, that we are incapable of seeing reality for what it is, and therefore are worth less than them. But that last bit is a lie, which does not come from God. We need not worry about our self-worth because it comes from God, who values us and loves us unconditionally. Our intelligence, capacity to judge the reality, or things like money, status, jobs, University degrees, our talents - none of these determine our worth. When we realise this, we can more readily be critical of ourselves, and not be ashamed of our incompleteness (since God’s love is not dependant on what we are capable of doing), and also not be worried about others’ judging us. We are then able to be much more patient (since we no longer feel the need to defend ourselves in a reactionary way), and loving (because we are no longer preoccupied with ourselves).

Hm. That got a bit long, didn’t it? He he. Well, you can put the above to practice by saying in every situation that, “my self-worth does not depend on [insert situation here]], because my self-worth is found in the infinite love of God and in the dignity of being created in His image”.

Hope this helps (I know it did me). Every blessing!
TTM

 

[Monarchy]

Gilbert Keith:

MONARCHY

There are several things in the bible that I find absoulutly moraly reprehensable. To ‘Chose’ to belive would mean I need to abandon reason and morality, which I will not do.

More attack on religion, I see. You just don’t get it. This “reasoning” faculty of which you boast is not kicking in. Youy can’t say you are only in this forum to explain and defend atheism and then spend your best efforts attacking the Judeo-Christian heritage. Is that your example of logical reasoning?

Exactly how is the above quote attacking your religion? I was told that I have a choice and I explained why I cannot ‘choose’. All the reasons I have been given to believe in god are either based in fear or emotion, not reason.

If you would just get to the point of admitting why you are in this forum … to win people over to atheism by slamming religion … at least then you would get some respect for truth-telling from this poster.

Yes that will happen when I become a theist.

Until then, I see you as a very angry person dumping on Christians at their own web site. When you are exposed for that … you needn’t go howling “foul play!”

All the anger I’ve seen has come from you in this thread.

 

[Monarchy]

Mike O:

Incorrect.

The existence of God can be convincingly proven rationally.

Read:

members.aol.com/cmor923905/

Yes the creation must have a creator argument. So who created the creator?

 

[Monarchy]

john doran:

and what’s the problem with that? it’s up to you…

if i tell you, “look - if you put your hand on the hot stove element, you’ll get burned and it will hurt”, and then you put your hand on the element and suffer a painful injury, am i culpable for the harm you undergo?

the only way to motivate your argument is to assume that god has a duty to prevent people from choosing incorrectly…and why should anyone believe that?

you are moraly responsible for what you create. If I creat a deadly virus that kills billions, am I not reponsible for that.

 

[Monarchy]

TTM:

Yah, but no intelligent adults believes in Santa, but millions do believe that Christ the man-God died and rose from the dead. I understand that it is something totally strange to you, but I ask you for now just to keep an open mind. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Every blessing,
TTM

Just because millions of people believe something to be true does not make it true.

Argumentum ad numerum

This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. For example:

“The vast majority of people in this country believe that capital punishment has a noticeable deterrent effect. To suggest that it doesn’t in the face of so much evidence is ridiculous.”

“All I’m saying is that thousands of people believe in pyramid power, so there must be something to it.”

 

[Monarchy]

Maranatha:

The morality of the New Testament has superseded the morality and laws of the Old Testament. The dichotomy you presented is not a problem for Christians.

But I thought morality was unchanging? What is right now had always been right. If it was moral at one time to stone a person to death for missing the sabbath and it is now no longer moral to do so, then morality changes.

Since Chistians (and many other faiths, btw) claim that morality is unchanging (one of the big arguments against moral relativism (sp?)) this would kind of fly against that would it not?

 

[Monarchy]

Gilbert Keith:

Of course he’s attacking religion. Why do you think an atheist visits this forum?

Already stated why.

I don’t mind that he attacks religion. As I said above, this is a debate forum. What I mind is that he denies he is attacking religion. This is absurd. Read post # 101 again. Is he defending religion? Is he defending atheism? No, he is attacking religion. Let him admit that is why he is here.

Okay, enough of this MODERATORS THIS IS TO SHOW WHAT I VIEW WOULD BE A TRUE ATTACK ON CHRISTIANS, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN OR CONDONE WHAT IS SAID. I AM SIMPLY DOING IT AS A DEMONSTRATION FOR THE OP:

Chistianity is a mental disease that should be destroyed. Christians attempt to force their beliefs down everybody else’s throats but don’t really belive it themselves. They claim the moral high ground, but still do most of the things forbiden them by the bible.

AGAIN I DO NOT BELIEVE OR CONDONE THE ABOVE WORDS THEY ARE AN EXAMPLE OF A TRUE ATTACK, AS SEEN BY ME.

Another example would be that there are other people on this board from other faiths, they are not attcking Catholisism. The only Attack I have seen so far from another faith is when a couple of months back some one was posting “REPENT Devil Worshipers!!!” or something close to that. An attack is not ment for discussion it is simply meant to wound. On atheist bords there are Christians who come on board to discuss things, I don’t consider them to be attaking unless they are posting things like above.

I’d love to hear him defend atheism for once! I’d love to hear Monarchy say what attracts him to atheism.

I am not attracted to athiesm, it is a state of mind. I am without God Belief, Infants are atheists when they are born because the have no God belief. If a chistian (or buddist or Muslim, etc…) can show me that their claim is true then I will believe, but as Carl Sagan put it best “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”

If he says what attracts him to atheism is that it defies and attacks religion, I can live with that. At least the truth is out.

I am glad to know you are a mind reader Gilbert, as you seem to absoulutly know what ‘attracts’ me to atheism.

I know many Christians, including Catholics, who bow and scrape to atheists. Not so in the PSALMS, where it says “The fool in his heart says there is no God.”

I don’t claim there is no god, and neither do most of the atheists I know. There is a small minority who do, but that position is logicaly indifensible. I am simply without God belief.

 

[Mike_O]

Monarchy:

Yes the creation must have a creator argument. So who created the creator?

Did you bother to read the link?

I’ll answer for you in saying that, quite obviously, you didn’t. Much like a movie critic offering a review of a film he’s never seen, your reply is particularly useless until you take the trouble to actually read it.

 

[Mike_O]

siamesecat:

i feel the same way about believing in big foot and about trying to find religion…i too would like to think there is a heaven and someone watching over me…but I just dont. Same way i dont believe in santa.

Your bio makes it known that you were born in 1989. So you call yourself an atheist–which implies CERTAINTY that you “know” that God “doesn’t exist”–and yet you’ve not yet completed the 11th grade.

See how doubt and denial work for you. Consider, if nothing else, Pascal’s wager, the weakest, yet still compelling argument for theism. An atheist ALWAYS loses. And the comparison to Santa Claus and Bigfoot, to say the least, exceeds “ludicrous” and heads into the comically ridiculous realm.