Main Reason For Atheism

[Gilbert_Keith]

MONARCHY

I had hoped to see you grow through this dialogue, but you are proving to be a hopelessly irrational and angry debater. I think I will just leave you to your own devices and pray that God will some day give you the grace to come to your senses.

As Jesus tells us, if they will not listen to His gospel, we should shake the dust of their town from our feet.

Go in peace.
Gilbert

 

[Joe_Monahan]

Reminder to All:

Keep the discussion charitable and civil and free of personal attacks against one another or the thread will be closed.

Joe

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Close it, by all means.

Thank you,
Gilbert

 

[john_doran]

Monarchy:

you are moraly responsible for what you create. If I creat a deadly virus that kills billions, am I not reponsible for that.

it depends on why you created it - if you created it with the intent that it kill, then, yes, you are guilty of murder.

but that is, again, beside the point, since we are not like viruses. more to the point: if my son grows up and murders someone, am i responsible for that act of murder?

 

[Monarchy]

"If going to church makes you a christian, does going to a garage make you a car?”

Singin’ Beauty

The reason you don’t see this as an attack on religion escapes me. What he is saying is that there is no connection between going to church and being a Christian. In other words, church is not the way to Christian salvation. Do you agree with him?

Acctualy I got that quote of a christian’s car. Maybe you shouldn’t just quote mine and put stuff up that I said out of context. The reason I thought it was a good quote is that I see many ‘christians’ who go to church EVERY sunday, but don’t follow through after they leave. Then there are people like my mother, who don’t go to church every sunday (maybe once or twice a year) but do handle themselves as a christain would be expected.

 

[TTM]

Monarchy:

Just because millions of people believe something to be true does not make it true.

Yah, but at least it’s not like Santa or Easter bunny, right?

All I was trying to do was to distinguish the two, and seeing which is more credible. You couldn’t convert an intelligent person like C. S. Lewis to believe in Santa Clause, but you could convert him to Christ (or at least J. R. R. Tolkien could, anyway).

Let’s not argue for argument’s sake. We’re all after the truth here, aren’t we? That goes for both parties here…

If you’re interested, have a look at what Peter Kreeft has to say in his Arguments for God’s Existence. I do recommend The Case for Christ/Faith/Creator by Lee Strobel too.

God bless!
TTM

 

[pseudoanselm]

Gilbert Keith! Have you risen from the dead already?

Anyway, you pose some great questions about atheism. I think each of the reasons you cite causes atheism for different people.

Some people call themselves atheists simply b/c the Christian moral code is too strict. But, they don’t have an aversion to the possibility of metaphysical realities like “God” or “soul”.

Others, have a philosophical predisposition which is called scientific materialism. It is the believe that all that exists is physical/material and therefore testable. These are the hard core atheists who look on all religions with suspicion.

These people consider such notions as “spirit” or “God” to be entirely meaningless and without substance b/c they cannot be verified. This is the so-called Verification Theory of Meaning. Of course, what these people have done is a priori rule out the reality of spiritual substances or beings.

For me, this is a major challenge for all theists and we must fight these people with all our resources.

 

[pseudoanselm]

Monarchy:

I’ve never come across anything that proves to me that God exists.

From the xian perspective, I do have a real big problem with a ‘loving’ god punishing people infinitly for a finite ‘crime’, whether it is with torture or not.

---

First of all, what is your understanding of what Christians mean by the term “God”? You may be rejecting a concept that Christianity doesn’t even teach.

Second, I can understand how it can be hard to reconcile a loving God with eternal punishment.

But, your thinking is linear. Do you think eternal reward is compatable with a loving God? If so, then isn’t the flipside to eternal reward, in fact, eternal punishment?

If you say, “No”, then obviously you believe that God should grant everyone eternal reward. Now, if you believe that, then you MUST believe that Hitler and Mother Theresa are sitting side by side rubbing shoulders right now? Is that what you believe? Is that what you believe to be a “loving God”?

And, what if punishment after death is temporary? Is that compatible with a “loving God”? What’s the flipside to temporary punishment? Wouldn’t it be temporary reward?

But, if reward and punishment after death are temporary, then the moral state of souls after death must be ETERNALLY temporary or changeable. Right?

But, if your state of soul after death remains changeable, as it is during life, then what you have is an eternal process of bouncing back and forth b/t reward and punishment.

Tell me, with the horrors of life as they are, is such a view compatible with the “loving God” that you so demand? If so, then I say no thanks. I’d rather suffer and die once than suffer & die an infinite # of deaths throughout eternity.

Finally, if you think death is the end, how is that “loving”? Is your atheistic mechanistic universe “loving”? Was Mao Tse Deung, the atheist dictator, “loving”.

So, if you’re going to heap scorn on the Christian concept of God as not “loving”, then wouldn’t it be just as fair for Christians, for said reasons, to dump on your world view as equally unloving?

What you need to do is think through what your criteria are for what makes a “loving God”. Once you’ve really thought that through, then get back to me.

 

[elwedriddsche]

pseudoanselm:

For me, this is a major challenge for all theists and we must fight these people with all our resources.

Just as some atheists are anti-religious, some theists are anti-atheists. Combative and mildly derogative language like the above do not make Christianity more attractive to atheists and only increase any mutual hostility.

 

[Everstruggling]

Singinbeauty:

You have not been in my shoes. I HAVE felt the very presence of God. If it weren’t for Him and my experiences with Him… I wouldn’t be alive today. And no, I have never taken drugs or anything of that nature.

This is why I do not believe in God. I have never felt the presence of Him. I don’t see him day to day. I have to rely on others telling me that God did this or that. I’ve never had a pray answered with anything but “No”, if it in fact it was answered at all.

I’m not in anyway trying to belittle Singinbeauty’s faith. I believe that others have seen, felt, heard these things, but unless I have experiences of my own, they aren’t enought to convince me. I think faith in a loving God, and feeling the presence of God is a beautiful thing. Just not my thing, apparently.

Despite this, the main reason I stopped believing in originally was that I started dating an athiest. I couldn’t accept that the woman I loved was going to go to hell.

Great thread :clapping:

 

[TTM]

Hi!

Everstruggling:

This is why I do not believe in God. I have never felt the presence of Him. I don’t see him day to day. I have to rely on others telling me that God did this or that. I’ve never had a pray answered with anything but “No”, if it in fact it was answered at all.

That’s fair enough. I don’t think feeling his presence is a prerequisite to conversion at all. It wasn’t the case for me anyway.

The way God answers prayers is very mysterious. We may at times pray for things that seem to us to be good for us, and so it can make us think that God doesn’t care or, that He doesn’t exist, but often we realise later that what’s best for us in the long run isn’t necessarily what we want or what we think would be good. Often, suffering can bring us greater life, for example.

Despite this, the main reason I stopped believing in originally was that I started dating an athiest. I couldn’t accept that the woman I loved was going to go to hell.

Great thread :clapping:

In that case, you can quite easily become Catholic, since we don’t believe that atheists automatically go to hell . Even though they have natural revelation of God through nature, conscience, etc., If they’re sincere seekers of truth, won’t God have mercy on them? We’re only accountable for what we know, so we can confidently ask mercy for them, and hope for their salvation, even while we lovingly try to bring them to Christ.

God bless!
TTM

 

[wcknight]

Everstruggling:

This is why I do not believe in God. I have never felt the presence of Him. I don’t see him day to day. I have to rely on others telling me that God did this or that. I’ve never had a pray answered with anything but “No”, if it in fact it was answered at all.

I’m not in anyway trying to belittle Singinbeauty’s faith. I believe that others have seen, felt, heard these things, but unless I have experiences of my own, they aren’t enought to convince me. I think faith in a loving God, and feeling the presence of God is a beautiful thing. Just not my thing, apparently.

Despite this, the main reason I stopped believing in originally was that I started dating an athiest. I couldn’t accept that the woman I loved was going to go to hell.

Great thread :clapping:

Have you really ever asked God for anything in particular ?

Many people go through life thinking that God never intervenes in anything in their lives, but more than likely the thing is, they just never associate anything that happens (or does not happen) as having divine intervention.

A lot of us Catholics (and many other Christians) believe that we are each assigned a guardian angel. So many times, we narrowly escape some harrowing accident by seemingly pure chance. It may not seem so miraculous. Was it intuition that you just happened to turn your head at just the right instance and notice an on coming vehicle or was it something else ?

One can associated everything to God or nothing, just about anything can be explained away as just the way the world works, or as having been influenced by divine intervention.

Most times, I’m fairly self sufficient. I can fend for myself most of the time but those few times when I have feel I have no control of my situation, I rely on God for help. And almost without exception God comes through in spectaular ways.

Everyone get a certain amount of good things happeniing in their lives. So, I guess it would be just as easy for anyone to say all their good fortune comes from God as it is to say all good things happen by pure chance.

Some will say, if you go through situations often enough, sooner or later a positive outcome will turn up. Unless you examine the possibilties of some things happening and see that there was very little chance of a certain outcome, one might claim that all good fortune can happen by pure chance.

Was it by prayer that such a thing happened or by pure luck of the draw ? There have been studies made that showed that folks who were seriously ill recovered or had less complications when a group of folks prayed for them, more so than a similar group who did not have folks praying for them. (this was a “double blind” study in which the sick and those praying did not know either party and did not know that they were the subject others prayers.)

It appears than not everyones prayers are answered, at least not always in the exact way that they may have hoped for. Sometimes the answer is “no” or “not right now”. It may be that what is being requested in not in the best interest of the requestor. You may think winning a big lottery is good for you, but very likely it may end up destroying your life.

I happen to know of a co-worker whose brother prayed for help and did win a lottery (‘only’ 3 million but still a very long shot). In his case he was able to use the money in very helpful ways to assist for his brother and sister (their parents had died and he was at wits end on how to make ends meet.)

It may sound like I’m using God as a crutch, (which in a way I AM) but when the going gets tough, I ask God for help. I’m one of those folks whose prayers are often answered. I don’t ask to win lotteries or fame or fortune, but I’ve been blessed in so many other ways. Folks on the outside may say I’m very successful as far as career, and family goes. All of that I attribute to a lot of prayer.

I did some hard work to get to where I am (maybe not lately ), but I believe I had some divine intervention also. The moral of the story is to ASK and it will be granted to you (and keep asking if you really think this is something that you really need).

 

[AnAtheist]

Speaking only for myself:
Gilbert Keith:

MAIN REASON FOR ATHEISM

What is the main reason atheists are atheists?

(1) Is it that they cannot believe God would create a world with so much evil in it?

Depends on God’s nature. The theodicee problem occurs with the Christian image of god only. Other universe creating gods like the Jewish or the Catharian one do not raise that problem.

(2) Is it that they find the idea of God intellectually unsupportable?

Indeed.

ARE THERE OTHER REASONS?

Yes, though it is somewhat (2) in detail:
There is no empirical evidence of gods whatsoever and the existing intellectual attempts to reason why a god must or should exist have all serious weaknesses. There is simply no reason to assume a supernatural being or spirit or concept (or any plural of) to explain the universe.

 

[AnAtheist]

TTM:

I can tell you that pride, peer pressure, and fear of ridicule are big factors.

Quite true. Try to grow up in a small Bavarian or Italian or Spanish village and not being Catholic. The peer pressure is immense. You are seen as a strange person and being mocked is the best thing you can receive, more likely you are shunned.
So, this works in both ways.

As for my peers, I have Atheists, Wiccans, Christians, and "I don’t really care what else"s among my friends. So what?

 

[Everstruggling]

wcknight:

Have you really ever asked God for anything in particular ?

Yes, I have repeatedly. I was a fairly devout Catholic for about 10 years. I spent time in the seminary training for the priesthood, in fact. Believe me, I prayed. Not as much, or with the same faith and humility as some people around me, but I did pray. It actually took me years to stop believing.

wcknight:

Everyone get a certain amount of good things happeniing in their lives. So, I guess it would be just as easy for anyone to say all their good fortune comes from God as it is to say all good things happen by pure chance…
…one might claim that all good fortune can happen by pure chance.

Have you ever noticed that insurance companies call disasters “Acts of God” ? It always seemed a little unfair to me.
It’s true that the good things that happens fortuitously could be from God, but then again, the bad things that happened by chance could be as well. I neither give credit or blame to God for the chance occurences in my life. It might be mistaken, but it is fair.

wcknight:

It appears than not everyones prayers are answered, at least not always in the exact way that they may have hoped for. Sometimes the answer is “no” or “not right now”. It may be that what is being requested in not in the best interest of the requestor. You may think winning a big lottery is good for you, but very likely it may end up destroying your life.

When I was a kid a prayed for super powers. I didn’t get them, and the world is a better place for it.

Since then, I’ve prayed for the conversion of friends and family members, the end of illnesses of my friends and family members, the end of suffering for those whose illnesses weren’t going away, for my sister to meet a man that would make her happy, for the strengthening of my own faith, for a return of faith, for relief of mental illness, for the end of my friend’s addiction to drugs, and for peace in general. I find it hard that not one of these was pleasing to a kind God, but if in fact they were answered, the answer must have been no.

Personally, I find it far more comforting to believe that there is no God (or even more appealling, that God is powerless to help) than that God is here, able to help, but choses to ignore me. If my experience of praying had gone differently, than I would probably still believe.

Cheers,

 

[cheddarsox]

Everstruggling:

Personally, I find it far more comforting to believe that there is no God (or even more appealling, that God is powerless to help) than that God is here, able to help, but choses to ignore me. If my experience of praying had gone differently, than I would probably still believe.

I understand what you mean here. I no longer believe in a god who is a being, anthropomorphic, etc. out of lack of evidence for such.
But because there is something that keeps the universe in line, laws, forces, attractions etc, and in many ways it fulfills the non anothropomorphic characteristics of a god, I accept that as the divine. And I am so much better off than believing God was choosing the way things go. The universe is awesome, but indifferent. I can accept that. That makes sense. No one is singled out for “lessons”, things happen because it is the nature of things to happen that way, not because I am being “tested out of love” or “blessed” or “chosen” with seemingly no rhyme or reason. I was always trying to figure out the mind of god. Now I accept that the divine has no mind. It works in ways that are not analogous to human understanding. Once I let the divine out of the box of anthropomorphism, WOW!! I was able at once to recognize the awesomeness, and I am moved to worship, and I see the universe as so incredible and perfect. This is the divine I always heard about! Truly magnificent.

I think that religious teachings are often metaphores to give us a glimpse of what the divine is like. It is a mistake to turn these metaphores into literal dogma, and thus define god in human terms. Religion can point us in the right direction, but often ends up taking the place of the divine and becoming as idol itself.

cheddar

 

[TTM]

AnAtheist:

Quite true. Try to grow up in a small Bavarian or Italian or Spanish village and not being Catholic. The peer pressure is immense. You are seen as a strange person and being mocked is the best thing you can receive, more likely you are shunned.
So, this works in both ways.

Yah, that’s true, I’m sure there are some “cultural” Catholics in situations like that. It’s sad though if they do get mocked or shunned, because I believe Christians should treat everybody in ways that affirm their dignity and value, be they atheists, homosexuals, etc. Afterall, only Christians can truely believe that human beings have intrinsic value.

As for my peers, I have Atheists, Wiccans, Christians, and "I don’t really care what else"s among my friends. So what?

I think you’ve hit the nail there in terms of ways of treating your friends, but I think it’s easy to confuse treating people with love and respect, with absolute tolerance. The former position recognizes the existence of objective goodness and truth (thus affirming human dignity and goodness of love, while recognizing objective morality), while the latter position can foster ignorance toward truth (affirming moral relativism and negating truth in the process).

God bless!
TTM

 

[cheddarsox]

TTM:

Yah, that’s true, I’m sure there are some “cultural” Catholics in situations like that. It’s sad though if they do get mocked or shunned, because I believe Christians should treat everybody in ways that affirm their dignity and value, be they atheists, homosexuals, etc. Afterall, only Christians can truely believe that human beings have intrinsic value.

**Where did you come up with this piece of nonsense?

cheddar**

 

[TTM]

Everstruggling:

Yes, I have repeatedly. I was a fairly devout Catholic for about 10 years. I spent time in the seminary training for the priesthood, in fact. Believe me, I prayed. Not as much, or with the same faith and humility as some people around me, but I did pray. It actually took me years to stop believing.

Wow. Seminary, even?

You know, I do believe that your prayers will be answered… just in God’s own time.

Have you ever noticed that insurance companies call disasters “Acts of God” ? It always seemed a little unfair to me.
It’s true that the good things that happens fortuitously could be from God, but then again, the bad things that happened by chance could be as well. I neither give credit or blame to God for the chance occurences in my life. It might be mistaken, but it is fair.

Whatever the case, I believe that God can use any disasters, suffering, and misfortunes for good. The answer to all the suffering is not necessarily a philosophical reply (which couldn’t satisfy anyway), but Jesus’ presence; as God who suffered all the suffering on Earth, past, present and future; as God who said “let there be light”, knowing this will come to be.

You see, a God who is indifferent to suffering isn’t worthy of honour. Our God is not indifferent, but is present to all our suffering, because the cross comes into the present. When we lose a loved one, He is there, weeping with us. When disasters strike, He is still with us, holding us. Not only that, he allows us to participate in His suffering, so that our suffering becomes infinitely valuable as tools of redemption.

Since then, I’ve prayed for the conversion of friends and family members, the end of illnesses of my friends and family members, the end of suffering for those whose illnesses weren’t going away, for my sister to meet a man that would make her happy, for the strengthening of my own faith, for a return of faith, for relief of mental illness, for the end of my friend’s addiction to drugs, and for peace in general. I find it hard that not one of these was pleasing to a kind God, but if in fact they were answered, the answer must have been no.

Look, God never wastes a prayer, no matter how insignificant. Remember that faith isn’t lack of doubt, but is essentially about trusting God, as you would a person. God’s time is not our time - and that is why we are to persist in prayer. I believe that God will see your caring heart, but perhaps not before you go through a “Job” experience. Keep asking the Mother of God for her powerful intercession. She loves you.

Personally, I find it far more comforting to believe that there is no God (or even more appealling, that God is powerless to help) than that God is here, able to help, but choses to ignore me. If my experience of praying had gone differently, than I would probably still believe.

You know what? God loves you no matter what. You are made in His image, and you have so much dignity and worth because of that. God doesn’t reject a humble and contrite heart, and most certainly does not ignore you, or your prayers. As we are all called to do, keep on working on your sanctification, and your prayers will also be more pursuasive to God too (although he still will listen to you, no matter what).

Ask the Holy Spirit for guidance - we can do nothing without Him!

May God bless you in your search, and may Mary our Mother be your helper.
TTM

 

[TTM]

cheddarsox:

Where did you come up with this piece of nonsense?

cheddar

Woah, ease off the hostility there buddy. I’m only stating what I believe; it isn’t meant to be an accusation of any sort.

Well, I do believe that only Christians (out of major religions) can truely believe that human beings have intrinsic value, because our self-worth comes from the dignity of being created in God’s image, out of pure love - God who is love, is infinitely holy, wise, and beautiful; and also from God’s infinite and eternal love for us.

Buddhists, for example, can not claim this, since (in its original form, anyway) they are silent on the reality of God.

Islamic God is not a God of love, although he is merciful. Where, then, can man claim his worth?

Atheists can not believe that human beings have intrinsic worth, since we’re simply a more advanced configuration of primodial broth, and a product of chance.

Hinduism - Well, I confess I have little understanding of Hinduism, but I do get the impression that our worth as human beings is no different to that of a cockroach, if we follow the principle of reincarnation.

OK, I’m not saying that any others cannot recognize the intrinsic worth of human beings. On the contrary, I believe that everyone on the planet pretty much has the capacity to see the intrinsic value that a single human being has. This is why we revere Mother Theresa, who dedicated her life to restoring dignity to the “untouchables” in India, and recognize her work to be beautiful and so right (and rightly so). I do believe though, that only Christianity can really say why this is. Afterall, shouldn’t the Darwinist say according to his belief “leave them to die - survival of the fittest is for the betterment of mankind”? Or the Hindu according to his, “it’s what they deserve for their previous life”? A Muslim might say “I’ll do this, because God likes it”, but I can’t see how they’d say “I’ll do this, because of their intrinsic dignity as a human person”.

I hope that clarifies a few things. Feel free to object, but please take it easy on me here - I’ve had enough conflict in the past week to last me a year.

God bless,
TTM