Main Reason For Atheism

[AnAtheist]

TTM:

Woah, ease off the hostility there buddy. I’m only stating what I believe; it isn’t meant to be an accusation of any sort.

Hm, but your belief here is actually an accusation (sort of). And totally wrong, if I may say so, see below.

Atheists can not believe that human beings have intrinsic worth, since we’re simply a more advanced configuration of primodial broth, and a product of chance.

Yes they can. You imply that the process of production has an impact on the intrinsic value of the end product. I outright deny that.

Is there no intrinsic value in a photo, if it was taken with a digital cam rather than an oldfashioned one?
Is there no intrinsic value in a human, if he was concieved in a test tube?

 

[wcknight]

Everstruggling:

When I was a kid a prayed for super powers. I didn’t get them, and the world is a better place for it.

Since then, I’ve prayed for the conversion of friends and family members, the end of illnesses of my friends and family members, the end of suffering for those whose illnesses weren’t going away, for my sister to meet a man that would make her happy, for the strengthening of my own faith, for a return of faith, for relief of mental illness, for the end of my friend’s addiction to drugs, and for peace in general. I find it hard that not one of these was pleasing to a kind God, but if in fact they were answered, the answer must have been no.

Personally, I find it far more comforting to believe that there is no God (or even more appealling, that God is powerless to help) than that God is here, able to help, but choses to ignore me. If my experience of praying had gone differently, than I would probably still believe.

Cheers,

Everyone expects their prayers to be answered instantly and in the manner they request. God just doesn’t work that way for the Hebrews it took hundreds of year to be freed, and it took 40 years to get them to the promise land.

There are many instances where conversion are not made until many years down the road, and there have been mention from some of the saints that a conversion did not happen until the last moment before death.

In one case it was said that a conversion took place betweenthe time a man fell off his horse until the moment he hit the ground and was killed. It may be that those who you want to convert are just not ready yet to accept God. They may be one of those who have to see God face to face just before they die before they can believe.

I’ve asked for similar type things, conversion for my family, cures for illnesses, and although some of these things have not YET taken place, some have and I still believe that most will be done in good time.

A few of my family have already converted and in ways or circumstances that totally surprised me. In one instance my sister had an embolism and bleeding in her brain, and it required 3 operations. The last one was her last chance and thankfully it was successful. She was as close to dying as anyone could imagine.

Suffering has always been a excuse for some to dismiss the idea of a loving creator. How can God allow such things. Yet Jesus tells us that suffering is an intergral part of salvation.

Folks forget that we are on earth NOT in Heaven YET. Earth is where random things can happen, where free will can let other folks interfere with our wishes or our happiness. Some will argue that you can not know or appreciate true happiness or joy until you experience suffering or pain.

I don’t necessarily agree with that but there is a bit of truth to that as well. Some think that suffering allows us an opportunity to serve our time in Purgatory while here on earth, saying that pain in Purgatory is more intense than while here on earth. Some of the saints have said that that is why they had some painful ailments while here.

I’m not a big advocate of pain or suffering. A small cut or hang nail is about all I can take. But I would much perfer to suffer now rather than later.

Personally I think there is some randomness to life. Some of us are fortunate or more careful, we don’t happen to touch the poison ivy or we are more careful in crossing the street. Or maybe we are just a bit more in tune with our guardian angels.

One thing that suffering does is, it makes us ask God for help, and it gives us an opportunity to comfort our loved ones. BUT one should always be ready and willing to accept God’s will in whatever the outcome.

IF my sister had died, I would have been very depressed and sad, but I was willing to accept that as a possibility. Her condition was critical and she needed a miracle to survive. Yet, I felt confident that God would not disappoint me. I had the prayers of my fellow KC members, and even after the first 2 operations failed, I still believed that God would not disappoint us.

My sister still has some memory loss, and has blurred vision in one eye, but she is basically back to full health.

To me it was a miracle and definitely a prayer answered better than I expected. One of many in my life.

wc

 

[wcknight]

Most of us will never experience or even witness a miracle first hand. They are rare and the very fact that they are very rare makes them that much more impressive when they do happen.

If you visit the cloak of St. Juan Diego just outside Mexico City or the body of St Bernadette about an hour ouside of Paris, you can see two real miracles.

The cloak in Mexico is over 300 year old, yet the image is made with pigments that has properties not available even 50 years ago. And under extreme magnification, the eye of our Blessed Mother, shows the reflection of St. Juan Diego. No artist even to this day can duplicate such an image. Yet this cloak dates back to just 50 or so years after the conquest of the Aztecs !!

The body of Bernadette lies in a glass case, with no special perservative or freezing or vacuum, yet her body is perfectly preserved after almost 100 years. She is one of several saints to have their bodies remain intact even many years after death.

To say that there is no evidence of God, simply is not true. Evidence abounds pointing to His existence, folks just refuse to accept any of it as true. IF you look for God, you will certainly find Him.

Folks who say God does not exist, reminds me of my kids when they stoop out in the open covering their eyes and yell, you can’t see me… It’s kind cute !

 

[TTM]

AnAtheist:

Hm, but your belief here is actually an accusation (sort of). And totally wrong, if I may say so, see below.

I tend to disagree. Accusations are… accusatory . For me, it was simply a philosophical proposition. I think the reason why it was taken to be an accusation was because of the general tone of this thread.

Yes they can. You imply that the process of production has an impact on the intrinsic value of the end product. I outright deny that.

Is there no intrinsic value in a photo, if it was taken with a digital cam rather than an oldfashioned one?
Is there no intrinsic value in a human, if he was concieved in a test tube?

OK… so tell me, why does a human being have any value? From an atheistic perspective, are we not simply an advanced form of cosmic dust, formed by chance? If such is the case, I do not see how the perceived value is any more than that - a perception. We’re an insignificant dot in the vastness of the meaningless universe, destined to non-existence and destruction. That being the case, how can a human life then have any meaning apart from what we perceive, and how can any perceptions be worth more than mere illusions?

God bless!
TTM

 

[Everstruggling]

wcknight:

Everyone expects their prayers to be answered instantly and in the manner they request. God just doesn’t work that way …

I’ve asked for similar type things, conversion for my family, cures for illnesses, and although some of these things have not YET taken place, some have and I still believe that most will be done in good time.

Suffering has always been a excuse for some to dismiss the idea of a loving creator. How can God allow such things. Yet Jesus tells us that suffering is an intergral part of salvation.

Folks forget that we are on earth NOT in Heaven YET. Earth is where random things can happen, where free will can let other folks interfere with our wishes or our happiness. Some will argue that you can not know or appreciate true happiness or joy until you experience suffering or pain.

Sorry, I just don’t buy it.

I have friends, I have family, and they know I love them. How? I give them my time, my help, my gifts. They know I am there for them because I show up and lend a hand. They know that I would do for them what I could. I show my love for them in a way that is impossible for them to miss. When they ask me for things that are not in my power to give, I don’t think that they should have or do, or I just don’t feel like doing for them; I let them know why.
I don’t ignore them for years at a time or say no, and then say, “There, I answered your requests.”

If I had a daughter I wouldn’t let another child hurt it. I wouldn’t let one of my son hurt her. I would stop him and tell him why it is wrong. If he still tried to hurt her, I would separate them. If my child told me he hated me, I would give him space, but I would keep checking back to see if he is okay. I would hold their hand when they were scared, and if it was a mistake to help them, I would tell them they had to do it on their own. My kids wouldn’t have to guess if I loved them. They would never debate whether I existed.

I can’t give life, or heal illness. I’m not even that great a guy. I’m mostly a selfish jerk. I would expect much more from an all-loving
God, but I don’t see it.

 

[AnAtheist]

TTM:

I tend to disagree. Accusations are… accusatory . For me, it was simply a philosophical proposition. I think the reason why it was taken to be an accusation was because of the general tone of this thread.

Well, ok. It’s a matter of perspective.

OK… so tell me, why does a human being have any value? From an atheistic perspective, are we not simply an advanced form of cosmic dust, formed by chance?

Not exactly, but as I don’t want to go into the details of evolution not equals atheism or evolution not equals pure chance, for the sake of the argument: YES.

If such is the case, I do not see how the perceived value is any more than that - a perception.

Pardon me of being accusatory myself now, but that’s *your *problem. But I try to explain, though finding the right words is a bit difficult, so I answer your other questions first.

We’re an insignificant dot in the vastness of the meaningless universe, destined to non-existence and destruction.

Well, yes.

That being the case, how can a human life then have any meaning apart from what we perceive, and how can any perceptions be worth more than mere illusions?

Isn’t that enough? We are here, we all (or at least most of us) want to live and love, have desires and dislikings. You see a certain vlaue in yourself (I think so), and to extrapolate that on others equal or similar to yourself is not so difficult. As far as I see it, life has no meaning, but it certainly has value. There is no contradiction, because those two concepts are independent. Only if you construct a dependency there, and that seems to be your philosophical point of view, you get the notion a meaningless thing is a worthless thing. Other people see that differently. Though I won’t deny that there are atheists out there, who see the same dependency and therefore behold humans as totaly worthless, but that does not apply to all.

A rainbow is only an optical illusion, created by sunlight, drops of water and the positions of the observer, the sun, and the drops. It is still beautiful, isn’t it?

 

[TTM]

Everstruggling:

Sorry, I just don’t buy it.

I have friends, I have family, and they know I love them. How? I give them my time, my help, my gifts. They know I am there for them because I show up and lend a hand. They know that I would do for them what I could. I show my love for them in a way that is impossible for them to miss. When they ask me for things that are not in my power to give, I don’t think that they should have or do, or I just don’t feel like doing for them; I let them know why.
I don’t ignore them for years at a time or say no, and then say, “There, I answered your requests.”

You know, I sometimes think that those who struggle with issues of suffering are those most sensitive to it. I believe that every human being is good, ontologically (morally, that’s another question…), and your obvious care for your family and friends demonstrate this. St. John of the Cross said, “At the end of life, we shall be judged by love”. I’m hopeful for those atheists who become atheists because of their love for neighbour, and confidently pray for God’s love and mercy on them.

I too did struggle with people’s suffering, and unanswered prayers but, for me, I’ve come to understand that God does everything for a reason, and for our best interests in the light of eternity. Afterall, suffering can teach us, purify us, bring us closer to God, and redeem the world.

It can be hard, but I think the main thing is to keep seeking the truth, and to work on holiness (holiness, yes, because even by secular standards, elimination of pride, undue sexual attachments (!) and other cravings, grudges, etc, frees our mind for it to know the truth without bias). I do not think that anyone who honestly and earnestly seeks the truth with a pure heart is ever lost.

May God bless you heaps,
TTM

 

[amarischuk]

Everstruggling:

Yes, I have repeatedly. I was a fairly devout Catholic for about 10 years. I spent time in the seminary training for the priesthood, in fact. Believe me, I prayed. Not as much, or with the same faith and humility as some people around me, but I did pray. It actually took me years to stop believing.

Everstruggling, I am interested in your journey. I myself was an extrememly devout Catholic for about 10 years, went to the seminary only two years ago, left after a year and now find myself in a position of either extreme Catholic liberalism or agnostic.

My journey and liberalization occured mostly due to studying fairly conservative writings ranging from the bible to Jacques Maritain.

One particular passage I still find haunts me is a passage in a debate between Arnold Lunn and G.G. Coulton (Is the Catholic Church Anti-Social?) where the historian Coulton makes a long case for the Catholic belief that the vast majority of humanity is bound for the eternal BBQ. But it was Lunn’s reply that shocked me by saying “Coulton, you claim to have a problem with the Catholic Church, but you really have a problem with Christ…” and then goes on to discuss the narrow path etc.

Maybe I have a problem with Christ too, but then I think about certain great Christian thinkers like the Church Father Origen and the 20th century theologian von Balthasar and their views on universal salvation. It only leads me to the opinion that the great majority of Catholics, particularly conservative Catholics, have a very parochial view of the Church. This is one reason why I like Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, even though I do not care for the platonist trends in his philosophy. Perhaps I should better study Henri de Lubac who was the prince disciple of the immanent Thomist Etienne Gilson (whom I love) but who also maintained a balanced interest in de Chardin.

This leads me to the position of either a) Christ was Christ and the people who wrote about him (ie the Bible) missed the boat in their portrayal of Him as a petty parochial figure (and their portrayal of God too for that fact) or B) Christ wasn’t the Christ and the Biblical nonesense is just that.

And yet at the same time, I cannot help but feel a need to defend the Church when attacked by my athiest/agnostic/protestant friends and I am perennially interested in the affairs of the Church.

Feel free to message me or search my user name on this board for more information.

Adam

 

[cheddarsox]

TTM:

Woah, ease off the hostility there buddy. I’m only stating what I believe; it isn’t meant to be an accusation of any sort.
**
I find it funny that you think I** am being hostile, when you were the one who made a flat out statement that no non Christians believed in the intrinsic worth of human beings. And you did not present it as a philosophical proposition, you presented it as if it were fact.

I find it very hostile to falsely present the world view of others as if it is a given.

Thanks for answering my question as to where you came up with your opinion.

cheddar

 

[TTM]

AnAtheist:

Not exactly, but as I don’t want to go into the details of evolution not equals atheism or evolution not equals pure chance, for the sake of the argument: YES.

OK, that’s interesting, what stance do you have regarding the origin of species?

Pardon me of being accusatory myself now, but that’s *your *problem. But I try to explain, though finding the right words is a bit difficult, so I answer your other questions first.

Um, I’m not sure that it is. What I’m saying is that for an atheist, he/she would have to concede that there’s no value in anything, apart from perception. Wouldn’t that be right?

Isn’t that enough? We are here, we all (or at least most of us) want to live and love, have desires and dislikings. You see a certain vlaue in yourself (I think so), and to extrapolate that on others equal or similar to yourself is not so difficult. As far as I see it, life has no meaning, but it certainly has value.

Well, no, I don’t think it’s enough. What about when someone wants to commit suicide, because he/she sees no value in himself, or meaning in his/her life? According to that, from his/her perception, it’s an OK thing to do. If value is only a perception, why should one care to preserve one’s life when things get too tough?

There is no contradiction, because those two concepts are independent. Only if you construct a dependency there, and that seems to be your philosophical point of view, you get the notion a meaningless thing is a worthless thing. Other people see that differently. Though I won’t deny that there are atheists out there, who see the same dependency and therefore behold humans as totaly worthless, but that does not apply to all.

I guess I happen to think that meaning and value are inter-related, and not totally independent from each other. No matter.

A rainbow is only an optical illusion, created by sunlight, drops of water and the positions of the observer, the sun, and the drops. It is still beautiful, isn’t it?

Um, I’m not quite sure how to figure out this analogy. A rainbow is a real phenomena, where sunlight is filtered through the prisms of rain drops and is divided into its spectrums. Light particles are real, not imagined. Maybe I’m not getting this. It’s past my bed time .

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

cheddarsox:

I find it funny that you think I am being hostile, when you were the one who made a flat out statement that no non Christians believed in the intrinsic worth of human beings. And you did not present it as a philosophical proposition, you presented it as if it were fact.

I apologise if you took offense. You’ll have to trust me though, when I said that it wasn’t accusatory. I had no intention of putting your position down (or if I did, I didn’t realise it). From my perspective, any action where I put others down is a result of my imperfection and brokenness, since if I truely believed in my self-worth and dignity in God, I would not have to do anything of the sort in order to place myself above others (which would be illusionary anyway).

I find it very hostile to falsely present the world view of others as if it is a given.

It would be, but the thing is, I didn’t think it was false. I believed it, and I believe it now, that yes, only Christians can truely believe it. I guess the important word is “truely”, since absolutely everyone can believe it (and I think most do), but without reasons why. I guess my wording didn’t make it all that clear.

Thanks for answering my question as to where you came up with your opinion.

cheddar

You’re most welcome. I hope it was a satisfactory answer.

God bless!
TTM

 

[AnAtheist]

TTM:

Um, I’m not sure that it is. What I’m saying is that for an atheist, he/she would have to concede that there’s no value in anything, apart from perception. Wouldn’t that be right?

Let me put it in a different way.

You say

1. Creation (with purpose) → brings forth → humans (with value)
2. Evolution (without purpose) → brings forth → humans (without value)

And from that you conclude, that everybody sticking to evolution must not see value in humans .

What I am trying to say is, Evolution (without purpose) → brings forth → humans (with value)
Humans (and other lifeforms) can have intrinsic value regardless of the process that “creates” them (if I may extend the meaning of the verb to create here).

You judge the value of the end product by judging the production process. I say, that is wrong, you should judge the value of the end product by the end product itself.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Everstruggling

*Sorry, I just don’t buy it.

I have friends, I have family, and they know I love them. How? I give them my time, my help, my gifts. They know I am there for them because I show up and lend a hand. They know that I would do for them what I could. I show my love for them in a way that is impossible for them to miss. When they ask me for things that are not in my power to give, I don’t think that they should have or do, or I just don’t feel like doing for them; I let them know why.
I don’t ignore them for years at a time or say no, and then say, “There, I answered your requests.”

If I had a daughter I wouldn’t let another child hurt it. I wouldn’t let one of my son hurt her. I would stop him and tell him why it is wrong. If he still tried to hurt her, I would separate them. If my child told me he hated me, I would give him space, but I would keep checking back to see if he is okay. I would hold their hand when they were scared, and if it was a mistake to help them, I would tell them they had to do it on their own. My kids wouldn’t have to guess if I loved them. They would never debate whether I existed.

I can’t give life, or heal illness. I’m not even that great a guy. I’m mostly a selfish jerk. I would expect much more from an all-loving
God, but I don’t see it.*

Read the Gospels again with an open mind and an open heart, and you will find just the God you are talking about!!!

God bless

 

[TetrisStar]

Another reason might be that they see that most of the world does not believe in God or believes in more than one god. There are several ancient stories that when matched up to the Bible are pretty much the same. ‘Man’ has been trying to find the souce of their creation since they have been created. This might be a a reason for atheism.

 

[SamCA]

TetrisStar:

Another reason might be that they see that most of the world does not believe in God or believes in more than one god. There are several ancient stories that when matched up to the Bible are pretty much the same. ‘Man’ has been trying to find the souce of their creation since they have been created. This might be a a reason for atheism.

I’ll admit that’s where the cracks first started showing up, for me. As a youngster, I saw no particularly good reason to believe in Jesus, but not in Zeus, Ganesh, or Thor.

Well, ok, Zeus was kind of a dick, so he’s probably off the list. But you know what I mean.

That’s not what actually killed it for me, but it was the first major blow.

 

[cheddarsox]

• 1. Creation (with purpose) → brings forth → humans (with value)

1. Evolution (without purpose) → brings forth → humans (without value)

**Jumping in… evolution is not without purpose. It is the process by which organisms that can sustain themselves in a given ecosystem are selected.

Or are we only assuming “divine” or anthropomorphic purpose?

Often, I come up against the argument that since random chance makes no sense, there must be the Christian God, as if there were only those two possibilites.

For one, the universe does not operate on a system of random chance, and secondly the Christian God is not the automatic default, only other possible explanation.
**

 

[cheddarsox]

• It would be, but the thing is, I didn’t think it was false. I believed it, and I believe it now, that yes, only Christians can truely believe it. I guess the important word is “truely”, since absolutely everyone can believe it (and I think most do), but without reasons why.

---

People other than Christians do believe that humans (and other things as well) have intrinsic value. The fact that you do not or cannot understand why they feel this way, does not mean they do not have reasons why. Your not understanding their reasons, does not make their reasons any less real or valid.

Assuming and/or treating the ideas and beliefs of the person you are conversing with as whimsy or without reason will not encourage them to take anything you share seriously.

cheddar**

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

SAM CA

I’ll admit that’s where the cracks first started showing up, for me. As a youngster, I saw no particularly good reason to believe in Jesus, but not in Zeus, Ganesh, or Thor.

The first and most important reason to distinguish Jesus from Thor or Zeus is that no one ever saw Thor or Zeus in the flesh and reported any doing with him. This is certainly not the record of the Gospels, which is full of accounts of Jesus as a real person with real traits with which we can all identify.

So at least from the start there is certainly a good deal MORE reason to believe in Jesus than in Zeus or Thor.

Unless, of course, you want to contest the very existence of Jesus and want to reduce him to the same kind of fantasy experienced by the Greeks and the Vikings, which is really the subject for another thread.

 

[TTM]

AnAtheist:

You say

1. Creation (with purpose) → brings forth → humans (with value)
2. Evolution (without purpose) → brings forth → humans (without value)

And from that you conclude, that everybody sticking to evolution must not see value in humans .

No, that’s not what I was meaning to say. It’s plain enough to see that everyone on the planet can see value in human beings, through natural revelation. What I am saying though is if one truely believed in non-theistic evolution, one should be able to discard human value without any philosophical problems, since it’s consistent with such a belief.

Most likely though, an atheist would certainly believe that human beings have value, not because it is consistent with their belief, but because it’s pretty obvious to a sane mind.

You are free to disagree, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you do, but that’s what I think.

What I am trying to say is, Evolution (without purpose) → brings forth → humans (with value)
Humans (and other lifeforms) can have intrinsic value regardless of the process that “creates” them (if I may extend the meaning of the verb to create here).

You judge the value of the end product by judging the production process. I say, that is wrong, you should judge the value of the end product by the end product itself.

It’s not so much the process, since Catholics are free to believe in evolution too. I think though that, philosophically, there’s no reason to believe in intrinsic human value, if we are merely products of chance.

I hope that’s OK. I don’t expect you to believe me, but I do ask to keep an open and inquisitive mind.

God bless!
TTM

 

[AnAtheist]

* 1. Creation (with purpose) → brings forth → humans (with value)
2. Evolution (without purpose) → brings forth → humans (without value)
*
**Jumping in… evolution is not without purpose. It is the process by which organisms that can sustain themselves in a given ecosystem are selected.
**

I meant it has no purpose in such, that there is no consciousness behind it intending something.