Main Reason For Atheism

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TTM:
I think though that, philosophically, there’s no reason to believe in intrinsic human value, if we are **merely **products of chance.
I understand that. The problem is the word “merely”. As I said, you judge the process, you regard a product of pure chance as inferior to an purposely intended product. Not because of the product’s features, as they are the same here, but only of how it came into existence.
I hope that’s OK. I don’t expect you to believe me, but I do ask to keep an open and inquisitive mind.
That’s very much OK. I’ll only ask you the same. 🙂
And then I can only agree to what cheddarsox has said here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=945770&postcount=2
 
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cheddarsox:
Jumping in… evolution is not without purpose. It is the process by which organisms that can sustain themselves in a given ecosystem are selected.

Or are we only assuming “divine” or anthropomorphic purpose?
I would only mean purpose that matters. Evolution and natural selection may have purpose in a limited way, but what does it matter in the end? Time will come to destroy everything, and maybe start the process over again, perhaps infinite number of times - but for what reason? What meaning does my life or yours have, or the entire Earthly civilization, when it is swallowed up by the sun in a few billion years? Objectively? I’m not talking about subjective, “experiencial”, perceived meaning here. I didn’t want that as an agnostic, and I don’t want it now as a Chrisitian.
Often, I come up against the argument that since random chance makes no sense, there must be the Christian God, as if there were only those two possibilites.
That would be a very limited argument. I think it’s a bit of a straw man though.
For one, the universe does not operate on a system of random chance
What do you mean by that?
and secondly the Christian God is not the automatic default, only other possible explanation.
There we go, so it is a straw man 😉

No, it’s not the automatic default, you’re right about that. That’s why we must keep seeking the truth.

God bless!
TTM
 
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cheddarsox:
People other than Christians do believe that humans (and other things as well) have intrinsic value.
You’re right. Again, I’m sorry it came across as denying that.
The fact that you do not or cannot understand why they feel this way, does not mean they do not have reasons why. Your not understanding their reasons, does not make their reasons any less real or valid.
I agree with you. People have this intrinsic knowledge, although I must say that for myself it can become awefully unclear. People are able to recognize beautiful deeds of kindness, generosity, self-lessness and love as “good”, and rudeness, selfishness and hatred as “bad”. This natural revelation undoubtedly prompted the ancients to seek objective morality and manners of conduct, and to speculate on the nature of man. It’s also a reason for the existence of so many religions.

I guess I approach it from a philosophical perspective (not that I’m all that well versed in philosophy at all). I’ve always been a truth-seeker, and believed that I should not only seek it with all my being, but also dedicate my life to following it. I think one of the wisest things I did was to take into account that intrinsic knowledge, that we are meant to be and do good.
Assuming and/or treating the ideas and beliefs of the person you are conversing with as whimsy or without reason will not encourage them to take anything you share seriously.
Again, I do apologise, but I think it was a misunderstanding. I do not think (and did not mean to imply) that atheists necessarily lack this intrinsic insight into the dignity of human beings, as hopefully I’ve been able to explain.

God bless!
TTM
 
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AnAtheist:
I understand that. The problem is the word “merely”. As I said, you judge the process, you regard a product of pure chance as inferior to an purposely intended product. Not because of the product’s features, as they are the same here, but only of how it came into existence.
Well, I never said which was necessarily “superior” or “inferrior” - that was only deducible through the intrinsic knowledge present in both you and I, but I don’t think I’ve made a statement on that as such (correct me if I’m wrong - I’m feeling a bit sleepy).

I do not see why it would be a problem for an atheist to admit that, philosophically, the implication of their stance would necessarily take out objective meaning and value from human lives. I think it’s because we know intrinsically that value and meaning are really, objectively “good”, and to admit anything of the sort would mean parting from these “good” values. Morally, then, that’s very good. In terms of following the truth, I’m not so sure.
That’s very much OK. I’ll only ask you the same. 🙂
And then I can only agree to what cheddarsox has said here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=945770&postcount=2
Point taken. I hope my reply to the post was satisfactory.

God bless!
TTM
 
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TetrisStar:
Another reason might be that they see that most of the world does not believe in God or believes in more than one god.
Is this fact, or assumption?
There are several ancient stories that when matched up to the Bible are pretty much the same. ‘Man’ has been trying to find the souce of their creation since they have been created. This might be a a reason for atheism.
Yes, I can see how this is an argument for atheism. Indeed, it cast some doubt into my own faith as well. I guess it helps to know that the bible is compiled by human communities, but that God can use it too. For example, story of Abraham and the flood are similar to other writings, but the outcome, and therefore the moral implications, are very different. The Old Testament’s predictions being fulfilled in Jesus is amazing, not to mention the reliability of the New Testament. But don’t take my word for it - keep thirsting for the truth.

God bless!
TTM
 
I would only mean purpose that matters. Evolution and natural selection may have purpose in a limited way, but what does it matter in the end?

**It would seem that part of the problem is that for you to be satisfied, you must have some kind of proof that you will matter for all of eternity (assuming such a thing exists). Do you only do things hoping for an eternal reward? Is that how you perceive the whole purpose of your being?

Babies don’t know about the concept of eternity, yet they struggle to live. They know life matters. It is born in them. Life either matters or it does not, eternity or no. Is a short life less valuable than a long life? Is it all about how long one goes on as a distinct entity?

Actually, if there is no afterlife, no eternity, this earthly life matters even MORE, because it is all there is.**

Time will come to destroy everything, and maybe start the process over again, perhaps infinite number of times - but for what reason?

**I don’t know. Nor do I see why there has to be a reason that makes sense to humans. We are but a small part of creation, and very likely not the point or summit of creation. The divine does not need to answer to us as to the purpose of the universe.

Personally, as a pantheist, I think that the purpose is that the divine experiences itself through creation. And we are part of that, and that is pretty awesome to be part of this dynamic, amazing universe. And I feel blessed to be so, even though I do not believe that I will exist for eternity. It is a blessing to exist just for now.**

What meaning does my life or yours have, or the entire Earthly civilization, when it is swallowed up by the sun in a few billion years? Objectively? I’m not talking about subjective, “experiencial”, perceived meaning here. I didn’t want that as an agnostic, and I don’t want it now as a Chrisitian.

**I take that on faith. The purpose of the universe and everything in it is obviously not to please me, make me feel special and eternally safe. That much seems pretty clear. But then again, why should it?

Think of the story of the Garden of Eden. The people did not die when they came to know good and evil, but they became insecure. Suddenly they knew about death, they could anticipate eternity, or lack thereof, they began to question, and the questions make them crazy and insecure.

We are no less secure than we were before the “fall”, not in reality. the divine is in charge, as always. What changed was our perception. We stopped trusting the that the universe and the divine knew what it was doing. We began to think we were the point of it all. But only our perception changed, not the truth.

The truth is that the divine is still in charge, and we don’t need to spend our lives worrying over eternity. It is out of our hands, as it always has been. Worrying cannot add one cubit to our stature…We are meant to live, and leave the running of the universe to the divine, yet we continue to try to be as “god”, to understand that which we cannot, to secure eternity for ourselves, etc. etc. The sin of pride continues. Calling our beliefs Truth, is nothing but supreme pride and hubris.

It is not our job, responsibility, or capability to run, change, fix, or control the universe. The divine has it covered. Our attatchment to self, our pride in ourselves as we are now, drives us to worry over maintaining ourselves, as we are, for all eternity. The ultimate security is in letting go, and letting the divine handle it, that is the ultimate in trust, humility and faith. To let “god” be “god”. And if that means that we will not last, in our present forms, as distinct individuals, with our precious memories etc, then so be it. It is not our call to make.

cheddar

**
 
TTM,

What I mean about the universe not operating on a system of random chance is this. There are clearly laws, forces etc that are at work in the universe. It is not chaos. There is cause and effect.
We can make predictions based on what has gone before.

It is incredibly complex, and our minds cannot factor all the circumstances , but even so, it is clear that what is taking place is not random.

Even an accident is only something that we did not intend to happen, but there is clearly a cause for even accidents. Things work in certain ways.

cheddar
 
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cheddarsox:
Do you only do things hoping for an eternal reward? Is that how you perceive the whole purpose of your being?
This sounds a bit like a reductionist view of Christianity, as a system of religion where one only works selfishly for reward (a popular view of it too, I might add). I did have some resentment toward Christianity and Christians for this very reason, but I think I now know a little better. For Christians, love is in itself the reward. To receive love, and to freely love back; that’s what Heaven and eternal life is. To reject, and so be seperated from love; that’s what hell is. The holier one becomes, more free one is to love. So, in a sense, Heaven starts on Earth - and so yes, that is my purpose of being; to be free to love, to love, and to receive love.
Babies don’t know about the concept of eternity, yet they struggle to live. They know life matters. It is born in them. Life either matters or it does not, eternity or no. Is a short life less valuable than a long life? Is it all about how long one goes on as a distinct entity?
Yes, I agree, babies know intrinsically that life is worth it, and no, shortness of life does not make it any less valuable - this is why we adamantly oppose abortion. However, what does matter is how and why the life matters and is worthy of being valued.
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cheddarsox:
It would seem that part of the problem is that for you to be satisfied, you must have some kind of proof that you will matter for all of eternity (assuming such a thing exists)… Actually, if there is no afterlife, no eternity, this earthly life matters even MORE, because it is all there is.
What I’m saying is, an atheistic explanation of the universe is inconsistent with anything to do with “intrinsic value” of human beings.

I can’t agree with that last statement. I mean, if in the end the product is the same (total annihilation), what determines right and wrong? What is it that makes people say “to love is good”, and “to hate is evil”? I do not think that the atheistic concept of the universe allows for such a value system to form - in fact, I think it’s contrary to it, and they should regard it as primitive and unenlightened superstition, if they are to carry their philosophy into reality.

How can this Earthly life matter more if there is no eternity? If all our choices either to love or to hate were meaningless, whether you were a Saint or a rapist would not matter, at all. All our concepts of right and wrong would simply have been a lack of long term vision! If this is all there is, a rapist might say, “oh well, life’s short, I may as well rape as many as possible and enjoy it - too bad about jail terms”, and it would simply be a matter of different approach to life, as valid as a saint’s.

[continued…]
 
I don’t know. Nor do I see why there has to be a reason that makes sense to humans. We are but a small part of creation, and very likely not the point or summit of creation. The divine does not need to answer to us as to the purpose of the universe.
Personally, as a pantheist, I think that the purpose is that the divine experiences itself through creation. And we are part of that, and that is pretty awesome to be part of this dynamic, amazing universe. And I feel blessed to be so, even though I do not believe that I will exist for eternity. It is a blessing to exist just for now.
You’re right, the divine does not need to answer us at all. As a Christian though, I believe that the divine did in fact answer us. Because the universe has a beginning in the Big Bang, where time and matter were created, I believe God is apart from this world; seperate from time (therefore “in eternity”) and space (therefore immaterial, or spirit). I do agree though, that we can indeed experience “the divine” through creation, because God has left his signature on the world and its inhabitants (this is why all of creation is a “sign”). Peter Kreeft says that “if God is love, all creation must reflect love”:
Have you ever wondered why there is gravity? Science explains that every particle of matter attracts every other particle according to fixed laws, proportionate to mass and distance. But science does not explain why. Why does that funny little electron in a hydrogen atom keep doggedly orbiting around its positively charged nucleus rather than zooming off orbit in a straight line? The scientific answer is: because its angular momentum, which tends to move it straight away from the nucleus, is exactly counterbalanced by its electromagnetic attraction to its oppositely charged nucleus. But why? Why is it attracted to its nucleus? Why do negative and positive charges attract? Don’t you see a real connection between this and love? Juliet loves Romeo because he’s Romeo. And the electron loves (unconsciously, of course) its proton because it’s a proton.
We can see the same principle at work on every level: gravity and electromagnetism on the inorganic level; a plant’s attraction to the sun and to water and nutrients in the soil on the plant level; instinct on the animal level; and love on the human level. And within the human sphere there is also a hierarchy beginning with the sexual desire (eros) and affection (storge) that we share with the animals up to the friendship (philia) and charity (agape) that we share with the angels. The universe is a hierarchy of love. This is not a myth. This is the splendid and glorious truth. Look! How can you miss it? It’s all around us.
[from Kreeft, “Love sees with new eyes”]

[continued…]
 
I take that on faith. The purpose of the universe and everything in it is obviously not to please me, make me feel special and eternally safe. That much seems pretty clear. But then again, why should it?
I’m glad you recognize your belief as containing faith - that’s something many people don’t realize about theirs. You’re right, the purpose of this life is not to please us. Romans 8:23 says, “and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies”. The whole universe is groaning. I believe that this universe of suffering and imperfection is a place of preparation. Imagine what spoiled brats we would be if everything was made to please us - we’d be totally devoid of love, and completely self-absorbed!

However, I do believe that you are indeed special, and valuable beyond my wildest imagination (boy, talk about cheese, but that’s what I believe!). You are as unique as your set of fingerprints, or DNA, and is valued and loved because you are who you are. Now, there’s nothing wrong with feeling good about that, because it would be reception of love, and not harbouring of pride.

We all seek love and self-worth in this life, above all other things, and I believe there is a reason for it. We all seek money, status, respect, sex (a form of love, but with lots of pleasure!), power - these seemingly fill our need for self-worth and love, but none of these can be fulfilling as or beneficial without true love.
Think of the story of the Garden of Eden. The people did not die when they came to know good and evil, but they became insecure. Suddenly they knew about death, they could anticipate eternity, or lack thereof, they began to question, and the questions make them crazy and insecure.
We are no less secure than we were before the “fall”, not in reality. the divine is in charge, as always. What changed was our perception. We stopped trusting the that the universe and the divine knew what it was doing. We began to think we were the point of it all. But only our perception changed, not the truth.
The truth is that the divine is still in charge, and we don’t need to spend our lives worrying over eternity. It is out of our hands, as it always has been. Worrying cannot add one cubit to our stature…We are meant to live, and leave the running of the universe to the divine, yet we continue to try to be as “god”, to understand that which we cannot, to secure eternity for ourselves, etc. etc. The sin of pride continues. Calling our beliefs Truth, is nothing but supreme pride and hubris.
It is not our job, responsibility, or capability to run, change, fix, or control the universe. The divine has it covered. Our attatchment to self, our pride in ourselves as we are now, drives us to worry over maintaining ourselves, as we are, for all eternity. The ultimate security is in letting go, and letting the divine handle it, that is the ultimate in trust, humility and faith. To let “god” be “god”. And if that means that we will not last, in our present forms, as distinct individuals, with our precious memories etc, then so be it. It is not our call to make.
There’s certainly a lot of truths in what you said. Certainly, “the divine” is in charge. Certainly, we ought to trust “the divine”, and certainly the fall was due to the lack of trust. True, we are not to worry, and true, we cannot secure eternity for ourselves.

However, calling our belief “truth” is not necessarily “supreme pride”; it is faith. Christians have absolutely no ownership of the truth, since it is not man’s pursuit of God, but the reverse; God’s pursuit of man, a revelation. Hence, there is nothing we can be proud for - no, we ought to be grateful and humbled. Our faith is not our own. It is a gift. This is why we value it so much - it is part of loving back. Thus, faith is all about trust. Trust in a person; goodness personified (since evil is not to be trusted), not in some abstract concepts. This goodness, this love, we believe, calls us to be with Him for ever, outside of time (which is His creation). Thus, we are to cleanse ourselves now from all impurities, since nothing unclean shall enter His presence (Rev 21:27). But, we can not cleanse ourselves - only God is capable of doing that, and we can lovingly cooperate with it.

Yes, I do agree about letting go of our pride - but that’s only fully possible upon truely realising that we are loved, and that all our our self-worth is contained in that. This is why, when asked for her motivation, Mother Theresa would do everything “for the glory of God” (much to the perplexing of the inquisitive media). We can love only after we are loved, and so be free and joyful enough to let go of pride, money, status, in order to love. We believe (as John Paul II said) that freedom exists for the sake of love.

God bless you!
TTM
 
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cheddarsox:
TTM,

What I mean about the universe not operating on a system of random chance is this. There are clearly laws, forces etc that are at work in the universe. It is not chaos. There is cause and effect.
We can make predictions based on what has gone before.

It is incredibly complex, and our minds cannot factor all the circumstances , but even so, it is clear that what is taking place is not random.

Even an accident is only something that we did not intend to happen, but there is clearly a cause for even accidents. Things work in certain ways.

cheddar
Oh, I see. Yes, I certainly think the universe is very complex, and certainly ordered and configured to an incredible precision. Reasons.org has very good information regarding the Anthropic Principle - that is, the necessary conditions in the universe for life to exist, including the expansion rate of the universe, nuclear force coupling constants, entropy level of the universe, etc. This is briefly mentioned in “The Case for Faith” as well. It’s a case for an intelligent designer of the universe.

However, what I was referring to by “random chance” is the atheistic notion of the universe, that life came out of pure chance, and nothing more.

Yes, I do believe that the universe was intelligently ordered toward creation of life, and therefore an intelligent creator exists behind it.

God bless,
TTM
 
Having read through all the posts on this thread, I am unclear as to what answer atheism has to the question of the intrinsic value of human life.

To what does the atheist attribute the value of human life?

The most I could gather thus far is perhaps that human life has value to an atheist because the atheist places value on it. If I have understood the posts correctly, this doesn’t answer the question. For this would mean the value is subjective, not objective. That is to say, the value is in the eye of the beholder.

If this is the case, then if a person places value on it, very well, it has value (to him). But if a person of a different world view does not place value on it, then it does not have value (to him).

Have I misunderstood the atheist position (or at least the position of the atheists in this thread)?
 
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Monarchy:
But I thought morality was unchanging? What is right now had always been right. If it was moral at one time to stone a person to death for missing the sabbath and it is now no longer moral to do so, then morality changes.

Since Chistians (and many other faiths, btw) claim that morality is unchanging (one of the big arguments against moral relativism (sp?)) this would kind of fly against that would it not?
I could not find where this was answered so here goes:

The Moral Law has not changed. What is objectively right will always be right. And what is objectively wrong will always be wrong. That is not to say that mankind perfectly understands what is objectively right or wrong at any given time. Jesus revealed more to us than was revealed before His time. And the Catholic Church has been charged to continue to clarify what was revealed. But Moral Law remains unchainged.

As one reads the Bible from the OT to the NT, there is a progression of God revelation to man. Man has not always understood the things it understands now, and this will continue I suppose. So when Jesus told the Jews who were about to stone the adultress “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” it furthered clarified our understanding. The Moral Law did not change. Our understanding of it changed…it was clarified so that future generations would not repeat the error of past generations.

This was the case with divorce as well. The Jews permitted divorce under certain circumstances. But Jesus said it was only permitted because of the stubbornness and hardness of their hearts. Jesus said it was not so from the beginning. Thus he said what I am now saying…the Moral Law has remained unchanged, regardless of what men understood about it.

In some ways things changed a but as well due to the new creation man becomes through Baptism into the Body of Christ. Abundant graces have been given to us that were not available before the suffereing and death of Jesus. Thus God may justifiably expect more from us.

Does that help at all? The Moral Law is perfect, we (and thus our interpretations and fulfillment of it) are not. However, we are at an advantage now because we have an infallible truth verifying source available to us now to clarify with authority.

Obviously I do not expect that you would recognize the teaching authority of the Church, but hopefully you can see that your initial concern of perceived contradiction, is not a contradiction.

Peace,
Chris W
 
Monarchy,

You mentioned in an earlier post (hopefully I can paraphrase accurately) that you would perhaps like to believe in God, but that you cannot see how you can, without abandoning logic and reason.

If you are interested in how you can believe without abandoning logic and reason, I recommend you read “Light of Faith” by St. Thomas Aquinas. It is difficult reading (at least I think so) but you seem intelligent so perhaps you will find his logic and reasoning up to snuff, so to speak. I cannot find the flaw in his reasoning. I recommend it only in response to your statement in an earlier post as paraphrased above (the time of day has discouraged me from scolling back through nearly 200 posts to find the one I am referencing).

Peace,
Chris W
 
TTM,

I was responding to what you presented as your personal inability to believe or accept that people other than Christians could believe in the intrinsic value of humanity. I was not challenging the whole of Christianity on this, just me, discussing with you.

Nor are the things I present necessarily or automatically an argument for atheism, I am not an atheist. They were, in this instance me, talking to you about your beliefs and my beliefs.

People who are not Christian can do things out of love as well. You call it heaven and eternal life, fine and good. Other people have it too. It is not dependant upon the belief in heaven and eternal life.

Your arguement that without the belief in eternal life why not just be a rapist is one I hear all the time. Again, I ask, is the only reason you are not a rapist because of eternal life? I doubt it. There are plenty of good reasons to be good, to enjoy love, to share community, to get a good feeling from being part of something positive, etc. that makes people do good.

Honestly, I think that the afterlife and eternity are too vague and questionable for most humans to use as the ultimate reason to do anything. Humans are much more immediate than that. We have a hard time waiting till the end of the month for a paycheck let alone waiting till the end of life for a hoped for reward. Most of us do what we do for much more immediate reasons.

Look at the world around you, there are a great number of non Christians who do plenty of good, just as there are christians who choose evil. It is not about the afterlife for most humans, most of the time.

If this earthly life is all you have, how can you say that it doesn’t matter if you are a saint or a rapist! Of course it does. If this is all you have, it matters tremendously how you spend it, what you make of it. If you have $100 dollars, and only $100 dollars, you are going to be very careful how you spend it, more careful than someone with unlimited $ will be with a mere 100.

Why you think that most humans would prefer to be rapists, and are only ever good because they fear hell is beyond my ability to comprehend. You must live in a really rough neighborhood.

As to the rest of your posts, I am not sure what to make of it. I tell you about my faith, and you tell me why I cannot feel and believe what I feel and believe, because I am not Christian.

If you won’t accept me sharing my very personal and heartfelt beliefs with you as how I actually feel. If you wont accept what I offer you at face value, then there is not much point in me continuing to share with you.

That is what I believe, and why, yet you tell me it is not possible for me to “really” and “truely” believe such, because I don’t belong to your club.

conversation over?

cheddar
 
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TTM:
However, what I was referring to by “random chance” is the atheistic notion of the universe, that life came out of pure chance, and nothing more.

**I have never heard an atheist say this. I have only heard non atheists say that is what atheists believe.

cheddar**

,
TTM
 
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cheddarsox:
TTM,

I was responding to what you presented as your personal inability to believe or accept that people other than Christians could believe in the intrinsic value of humanity. I was not challenging the whole of Christianity on this, just me, discussing with you.
OK, I thought I had cleared this up, but obviously not. Let me quote myself from my other posts just for reminder:
No, that’s not what I was meaning to say. It’s plain enough to see that everyone on the planet can see value in human beings, through natural revelation
cheddarsox said:
People other than Christians do believe that humans (and other things as well) have intrinsic value.
You’re right. Again, I’m sorry it came across as denying that.

So no, I do not have an inability (I don’t know why it has to be turned into a personal attack, but never mind) to believe that people other than Christians can believe in the intrinsic value of humanity. What I was meaning is that only Christianity could account for it as part of the belief. Feel free to disagree, with evidence, but please respect that as my view point - it was never meant as an accusation. If you read the original context in which I said it, I think you’ll see that.
Nor are the things I present necessarily or automatically an argument for atheism, I am not an atheist. They were, in this instance me, talking to you about your beliefs and my beliefs.
OK, point taken. The topic of the thread is atheism though.
People who are not Christian can do things out of love as well.
Yes, I never doubted that. It’s written in all our hearts.
You call it heaven and eternal life, fine and good. Other people have it too. It is not dependant upon the belief in heaven and eternal life.
Yes, but my point was that the existence of God accounts for objective morality. Atheists are free to ignore this, and say that morality is all subjective (and therefore value).
Your arguement that without the belief in eternal life why not just be a rapist is one I hear all the time. Again, I ask, is the only reason you are not a rapist because of eternal life? I doubt it. There are plenty of good reasons to be good, to enjoy love, to share community, to get a good feeling from being part of something positive, etc. that makes people do good.
I was never a rapist, even before I was a Christian, so yes, of course I do not think that is the only think keeping me from being one. However, without objective morality, there is nothing to stop you from saying that “to rape is good” (especially if it’s of evolutionary advantage) - and that was my point.
Honestly, I think that the afterlife and eternity are too vague and questionable for most humans to use as the ultimate reason to do anything. Humans are much more immediate than that. We have a hard time waiting till the end of the month for a paycheck let alone waiting till the end of life for a hoped for reward. Most of us do what we do for much more immediate reasons.
Yes, true, we are very impatient. What I was meaning though, was that objective morality exists, because we were created by an intelligent being, and not by chance.

[continued…]
 
Look at the world around you, there are a great number of non Christians who do plenty of good, just as there are christians who choose evil. It is not about the afterlife for most humans, most of the time.
I agree. That’s why Catholics do not reject what is good and holy in other religions, but embrace them (I still value a lot of what I learned from Buddhism). But there’s an objective standard from which we can say “ABC does good, while XYZ does evil” - since if good and evil are entirely relative, good would not be “better” than evil (as C. S. Lewis pointed out in Mere Christianity regarding Dualism).
If this earthly life is all you have, how can you say that it doesn’t matter if you are a saint or a rapist! Of course it does. If this is all you have, it matters tremendously how you spend it, what you make of it. If you have $100 dollars, and only $100 dollars, you are going to be very careful how you spend it, more careful than someone with unlimited $ will be with a mere 100.
But without objective morality, there’s no difference as to what you spend it on, since they’re all priced the same and are all the same products.

But I guess you would believe in objective morality, wouldn’t you?
Why you think that most humans would prefer to be rapists, and are only ever good because they fear hell is beyond my ability to comprehend. You must live in a really rough neighborhood.
Please stop the straw man argument - it’s offensive. You know I did not say or imply that “most humans would prefer to be rapists”, or that “humans are only ever good because they fear hell”.
As to the rest of your posts, I am not sure what to make of it. I tell you about my faith, and you tell me why I cannot feel and believe what I feel and believe, because I am not Christian.
As I’ve been trying to tell you, that’s not what I’ve been doing (hopefully, this post has cleared this up). I do believe that you can feel and believe what you feel and believe. It’s written in your heart; in all our hearts. We are created to love and to be loved - of course you’d recognize intrinsic value in human beings, as would most human beings. Is that clear enough?
If you won’t accept me sharing my very personal and heartfelt beliefs with you as how I actually feel. If you wont accept what I offer you at face value, then there is not much point in me continuing to share with you.
That is what I believe, and why, yet you tell me it is not possible for me to “really” and “truely” believe such, because I don’t belong to your club.
I hope this post has cleared things up a bit.
conversation over?
It would be unfortunate if it was, since it’d be based on a misunderstanding. I do ask that you stick around.

God bless!
TTM
 
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cheddarsox:
I have never heard an atheist say this. I have only heard non atheists say that is what atheists believe.
Is that not what the atheists believe? That given enough time, intelligent life would form from the non-intelligent universe’s tendency toward order? It does come down to pure chance then, does it not?

God bless,
TTM
 
I think what I meant also by “intrinsic value of human beings” is that human beings are set apart from the rest of creation, so that life of a human being is not equivalent to life of a bacterium (otherwise taking anti-biotics would be an evil equal to the holocaust - and don’t even think about going down to your local butchery!). Sorry for the confusion.

God bless!
TTM
 
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