Main Reason For Atheism

[Booger]

Gilbert Keith:

Booger

No, you address it.

I believe that my link already did.

Where were you when this thread was humming? Too late now. I’m all played out, but not so played out I can’t offer an atheist the last word.

Go for it.

God bless,
Gilbert

I’m sorry that I can’t make my schedule conform to yours.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

BOOGER

*I believe that my link already did.
*
Your link did, but you didn’t.

And equally sorry you got here too late.

See you in* Is Atheism a Religion?* thread?

 

[TTM]

Hm. Check this out.

 

[cheddarsox]

TTM:

Hm. Check this out.

And this is significant how?

cheddar

 

[AnAtheist]

cheddarsox:

And this is significant how?

cheddar

It shows, how well the pattern recognition systen of the human brain works. We impose meaning on patterns everywhere, thus we can see white triangles on white paper.
Here, see the name of Allah written on a bee hive and a water melon:
road-to-heaven.com/pics/miracles.htm

What a miracle.

 

[TTM]

Heh, yah yah.

Well, we do have to consider other evidences of supernatural activities as well though, such as Hexing and demonic possession/exorcisms on the one hand, and Marian apparitions and miraculous healings on the other.

Personally knowing some people who have witnessed demonic manifestations (someone in a “deliverance” ministry) and healing (from one part of India, where faith is strong), I guess I find them easier to believe. Oh, there’s a charismatic Priest I know with the gift of healing too. He was on TV for having healed a crushed hand of a violinist girl, but I also know a few people who have received healing through him.

Now, assuming there’s even a possibility of an afterlife, I humbly ask you to recite a Hail Mary or three, asking Mother Mary to help you seek the truth, even with a “if you or God exist” in your mind - can’t hurt, can it? That’s all I ask:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed in the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death,
Amen.

God bless!
TTM

 

[cheddarsox]

AnAtheist:

It shows, how well the pattern recognition systen of the human brain works. We impose meaning on patterns everywhere, thus we can see white triangles on white paper.
Here, see the name of Allah written on a bee hive and a water melon:
road-to-heaven.com/pics/miracles.htm

What a miracle.

Thanks! I wasn’t sure what TTM was supporting. I’m with you on this one, I teach science classes about how our brains “job” is to find and interpret patterns, and how it will do so when none exists. The kids have lots of fun with this.

Things have the meaning we assign to them. Even in science, a thing is a fish because that is what we decided to call all those things that have certain anatomical features. Then somthing like a mudpuppy comes along and people scratch their heads, like it’s the mudpuppy’s problem that it doesn’t fit neatly into a man-made group.

What I am wondering, other than the “neato” factor, what meaning are folks assigning to the #2 in the eye of a hurricane. What is the message that is being taken from it?

God uses arabic numbers! A clear sign that we should do away with Roman numerals forever! I’m all for it.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

TTM:

Heh, yah yah.

Well, we do have to consider other evidences of supernatural activities as well though, such as Hexing and demonic possession/exorcisms on the one hand, and Marian apparitions and miraculous healings on the other.

Personally knowing some people who have witnessed demonic manifestations (someone in a “deliverance” ministry) and healing (from one part of India, where faith is strong), I guess I find them easier to believe. Oh, there’s a charismatic Priest I know with the gift of healing too. He was on TV for having healed a crushed hand of a violinist girl, but I also know a few people who have received healing through him.

I agree that there are all manner of interesting occurances that we must consider. The thing is, there are all manner of interesting occurances that support a variety of religious beliefs. I find support for my pantheistic beliefs. I know people who have had pantheistic related visions, healings, etc. etc.

The universe doesn’t seem to support the idea of there being only the Catholic concept of God. What do you make of that?

The only explanation I have ever heard is that everything that doesn’t support the Catholic God is the work of the devil…because the church says so. That doesn’t quite cut it for me.

cheddar

 

[AnAtheist]

cheddarsox:

God uses arabic numbers!

Are you sure? It was an evil hurricane. Perhaps Satan uses arabic digits. And the Arabs use Indian digits, perhaps they have better insights on what numbers to use. Oh oh, through the Quran perhaps. Now what?

 

[TTM]

cheddarsox:

The only explanation I have ever heard is that everything that doesn’t support the Catholic God is the work of the devil…because the church says so. That doesn’t quite cut it for me.

Yah, it can be quite confusing, really, but I do think that the devil can be very subtle - he can pose as the angel of light (lucifer) that he was. One of the Saints, Padre Pio, was said to have been visited by what seemed to be Jesus, but upon asking him to say something like “praise be to Jesus”, disappeared without a trace. There are records of his other encounters. I find the last one on the page particularly interesting (although it isn’t related to any encounters), because I personally know someone who has has a similar experience - that is, the priest’s face, when celebrating the Eucharist at Mass, melted with Jesus’ appearance. This is consistent with what the Church teaches; the priest acts in persona Christi.

We also acknowledge though, that the Holy Spirit can act in ways that lead people to goodness and truth. As St. Augustine said, “Our hearts were made for You, O Lord, and they are restless until they rest in you” - and so, we believe, there are so many religions because of this drive placed in us. This is why the Church accepts everything that is good and holy in other religions.

I think what we tend to forget in today’s culture of “tolerance” (often read, “indifference”), and what we do need to take into account is that truth, by it’s very nature, is exclusive - even the so-called inclusivists are in reality exclusivists, since they exclude the exclusivists. Hence, as John Paul II pointed out in his encyclical, Fides et Ratio, the law of non-contradiction drives us to investigate the one who said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me”. The invitation is open to all who seek with patience and determination.

God bless!
TTM

 

[lcalise]

Monarchy:

Put it this way, I can scientificaly show that wind ‘exists’. You cannot do that for god.

Anyone up for a little Descartes? Personally, I’m not, but just thought I should bring up that you could argue you cannot prove anything (maybe save that you exist).

However, my answer to atheists is always this:
There ARE things beyond human comprehension.
One example is the concept of infinity. You can understand the idea, but you cannot really comprehend it. Or even the origin of the universe. No, science cannot explain how you can get something from nothing for someone who might respond Big Bang.

So, knowing that some things of a scientific, physical nature are beyond human comprehension, why do you insist that God meet a standard of comprehension that the world cannot meet either?

 

[cheddarsox]

TTM,

I still have no idea what you were trying to show, or support by your link to the #2 in the eye of the hurricane. Is it intended to be a sign of something? The work of God, the work of the devil? What?

Personally, I think it is a bad idea to use anomalies to “prove” the existence of the divine. If a person cannot see the divine in the universe in all its “ordinary” magnificence, then they are unlikely to be convinced by a parlor trick. Christ himself said they would not believe even if one should come back from the dead.

Look rather for the beauty, diversity and power in the clouds, not for subtle signs and signals, the message is much clearer, and requires no interpretation.

blessings,

cheddar

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

cheddarsox:

TTM,

I still have no idea what you were trying to show, or support by your link to the #2 in the eye of the hurricane. Is it intended to be a sign of something? The work of God, the work of the devil? What?

Personally, I think it is a bad idea to use anomalies to “prove” the existence of the divine. If a person cannot see the divine in the universe in all its “ordinary” magnificence, then they are unlikely to be convinced by a parlor trick. Christ himself said they would not believe even if one should come back from the dead.

​

Look rather for the beauty, diversity and power in the clouds, not for subtle signs and signals, the message is much clearer, and requires no interpretation.

blessings,

cheddar

1. God comes to men in the midst of historical, this-worldly, experience - such as that of a bunch of runaway Hebrew slaves. Secular and sacred history deal very largely with the same events - the two labels reflect how what are often the same things are seen by different people.​

1. God is present in what is marvellous, but is not confined to what is marvellous; and He is not a “god of the gaps”, present only in the so-far-unexplained; if He were, then every time something became intelligible, His realm would shrink; He would in principle be a stranger to what He has brought into being and upholds by His Love; as though He had no business to be present in what is not astonishing or streange or dark to us. God is present in all creation, or is not God at all.
2. Some things do require interpretation - because creation is sacramental; it can be understood without being regarded as pointing to its Creator, up to a point; but to see its deepest values and meanings, it has to be seen in its relation to Christ; when St Paul said, “…in Him all things consist” (Colossians 1), he was giving a clue to the meaning of “life, the universe, and everything”. That’s why prophecy in the OT is so important - the prophets were men alive to God, so they were able to interpret the meaning of the events of their time: the “secular” historian’s Babylonian destruction of a rebel vassal state in 587 BC, is a Jeremiah’s manifestation of the wrath of God against His people. ##

 

[misterX]

Gilbert Keith:

MAIN REASON FOR ATHEISM

What is the main reason atheists are atheists?

(1) Is it that they cannot believe God would create a world with so much evil in it?

(2) Is it that they find the idea of God intellectually unsupportable?

(3) Is it that God presents an authority figure which they are by temperament unable to submit to?

(4) Is it that they find God (especially the Christian God) an obstacle to charting their own moral code?

(5) Is it that they are conformists to the fashionable mode of 20th century thought inherited from Nietzsche and others?

(6) Is it that they have inherited atheism from their parents?

(7) Is it that they have inherited atheism from the media and/or academia?

(8) Is it a combination of any or all of the above reasons?

ARE THERE OTHER REASONS?

Thanks for any interest in this thread!

There are many reasons. But the main reason i feel is that this is a time of emenence freedom. personal freedom that is. It’s a time where if someone is a virgin or believes in saving themselves for that “speacial” someone they are mocked and ridiculed, while being a “slut” is almost seen as some kind of a virtue. It’s nothing for people these days to have multiple sexual partneners, get involved in the use of drugs, to put ones needs above everyone elses etc. Which are things that Christianity teaches against. And these people who are involved in this sort of life style wouldn’t really be able to enjoy their perverted little lives in peace if they believed in a God that frowned on such activities. Which is probably why paganism is on the rise. people want to believe in a higher power. But they just can’t handle a God that will someday judge them on their activities. So they replace the one true God who will one day judge them with some hippie do as you want i wont judge you god.
That’s one reason there are a few more ideas that i have as to why Atheistism is on the rise

 

[TTM]

cheddarsox:

TTM,

I still have no idea what you were trying to show, or support by your link to the #2 in the eye of the hurricane. Is it intended to be a sign of something? The work of God, the work of the devil? What?

Well, actually, it wasn’t intended to be an end-all evidence - thus the . Rarely is any one evidence satisfactory for any one position, and I don’t expect this one to be an eye-opener, but just a thought provoker.

God bless!
TTM

 

[Mijoy2]

Anyone up for a little Descartes? Personally, I’m not, but just thought I should bring up that you could argue you cannot prove anything (maybe save that you exist).

However, my answer to atheists is always this:
There ARE things beyond human comprehension.
One example is the concept of infinity. You can understand the idea, but you cannot really comprehend it. Or even the origin of the universe. No, science cannot explain how you can get something from nothing for someone who might respond Big Bang.

So, knowing that some things of a scientific, physical nature are beyond human comprehension, why do you insist that God meet a standard of comprehension that the world cannot meet either?

Excellent question. I have pondered this concept myself.
I wonder if God, designed into His creation these things which we can understand yet not fully comprehend, given our a ability to reason, to humble us into understand that we are not as smart as we think we are.

In other words He shows to us these unreachable concepts in an effort to show us there are unreachable concepts…such as He.

Can we ever truly, fully understand the universe? Does it have a beginning, an end? If so, what is 12 inches beyond it’s end? If not, how do we quantify the unquantifiable? So many things (I believe) are out of the realm of human understanding.

Yet the Atheist says (if my definition of Atheism is correct), “there is no God”. Isn’t this presumptuous? Especially in the light of the evidence that does exist?

 

[Mijoy2]

Anyone up for a little Descartes? Personally, I’m not, but just thought I should bring up that you could argue you cannot prove anything (maybe save that you exist).

However, my answer to atheists is always this:
There ARE things beyond human comprehension.
One example is the concept of infinity. You can understand the idea, but you cannot really comprehend it. Or even the origin of the universe. No, science cannot explain how you can get something from nothing for someone who might respond Big Bang.

So, knowing that some things of a scientific, physical nature are beyond human comprehension, why do you insist that God meet a standard of comprehension that the world cannot meet either?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

The principle reason for Atheism in the West is Nominalism. Secondarily, it is the Enlightenment. Theism generally is on the comeback trail I believe. It is hard to sustain a philosophy based upon nothing.

CDL

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

misterX

There are many reasons. But the main reason i feel is that this is a time of emenence freedom. personal freedom that is. It’s a time where if someone is a virgin or believes in saving themselves for that “speacial” someone they are mocked and ridiculed, while being a “slut” is almost seen as some kind of a virtue. It’s nothing for people these days to have multiple sexual partneners, get involved in the use of drugs, to put ones needs above everyone elses etc. Which are things that Christianity teaches against. And these people who are involved in this sort of life style wouldn’t really be able to enjoy their perverted little lives in peace if they believed in a God that frowned on such activities. Which is probably why paganism is on the rise. people want to believe in a higher power. But they just can’t handle a God that will someday judge them on their activities. So they replace the one true God who will one day judge them with some hippie do as you want i wont judge you god.

I like the way you aim and fire.*

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Interesting choice of words. But no, this would be a reason to refuse to worship a god, not a reason to not believe in that god.

Many atheists who inevitably convert to some form of religious faith often note in hindsight that these two things were not different at all.

While these converts certainly don’t speak for all atheists, I think they give a plausible reason to suspect that other atheist’s reasons for not believing in a god often disguises their refusal to worship the god in question.

Yes. I know that this dynamic can work in reverse too-- considering someone losing their faith in God for example. But, when they lose their faith, aside from the most militant of atheists, they usually still seem to hope that someone can prove them wrong.

People of religious faith don’t seem to hope for someone to come along and prove them wrong.

Just saying.