Mainline/ Liberal Lutherans

[ndismyhome]

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut guys (& gals?). For a bit of disclosure, I am currently a vicar (intern pastor) in the ELCA in a 3000 member Lutheran (read: liberal Baptist) congregation. I have experienced many of the things y’all have mentioned in my time at seminary and among the leaders and pastors of this denomination. 'Tis a sad state we find ourselves in.

 

[JonNC]

“Reinventing an understanding of the Lutheran confessions is quite another.”?

That goes right to my point, Jon, a point you really cannot avoid. Re-inventing “understandings” is pretty much one of the dogmas of Protestantism of which Lutheranism is a part. So long as private judgment is a bedrock dogma of Protestantism, a dogma which Dr. Luther fallibly proclaimed, your reinventing of “understandings” will continue with no posssible end in sight. History has proven the above to be true. I think you know this Jon.

Who within your particular brand of Protestantism can effectively say, once and for all, whether, how shall we say, your more theologically liberal Lutheran brethren, are correct or not?

I will put it this way, my friend, I look to the orthodox (as opposed to unorthodox) teachings of the historic Lutheran Church. When the day comes that my synod no longer reflects that history, I will cease to be part of it. If you wish to call that private interpretation, you are welcome to do so. But there are some facts:

Historically, the Lutheran Church did not ordain women - this is an unorthodox practice.​

Historically, the Lutheran Church did not ordain openly practicing gays - this, too, is an unorthodox practice.​

Historically, the Lutheran Church did not share altar and pulpit fellowship with communions that reject, by their own doctrines, the doctrines as set out in the Lutheran Confessions, most notably the real presence - this is an unorthodox practice.​

Certainly, the vast numbers of Lutherans who are in Lutherans synods who have taken on these practices see themselves and their practices as fully Lutheran. Confessional Lutherans do not, just like Catholics view Old Catholics.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut guys (& gals?). For a bit of disclosure, I am currently a vicar (intern pastor) in the ELCA in a 3000 member Lutheran (read: liberal Baptist) congregation. I have experienced many of the things y’all have mentioned in my time at seminary and among the leaders and pastors of this denomination. 'Tis a sad state we find ourselves in.

I’m sure this has led to some troublesome times for you, and my prayers are with you. I also pray that the Spirit will guide you in your vocation, and also lead the ELCA back to confessional Lutheranism.

His peace,
Jon

 

[gcnuss]

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut guys (& gals?). For a bit of disclosure, I am currently a vicar (intern pastor) in the ELCA in a 3000 member Lutheran (read: liberal Baptist) congregation. I have experienced many of the things y’all have mentioned in my time at seminary and among the leaders and pastors of this denomination. 'Tis a sad state we find ourselves in.

I feel your pain. I am a pastor in the ELCA and I find myself at odds with the church on several issues – the sexuality decisions and the “full communion” agreements with church bodies that deny (or, at least, do not believe in) the Real Presence.

My decision to remain with the ELCA is not easy – I sometimes find myself feeling like a stranger in a strange land. On the other hand, I do participate in groups of like-minded clergy where I am strengthened for the struggle that is part of being a confessional Lutheran in a theologically shaky church. There are, indeed, good and faithful people in the midst of the morass and I can’t bring myself to leave them behind.

Just a couple of thoughts.

 

[JonNC]

I feel your pain. I am a pastor in the ELCA and I find myself at odds with the church on several issues – the sexuality decisions and the “full communion” agreements with church bodies that deny (or, at least, do not believe in) the Real Presence.

My decision to remain with the ELCA is not easy – I sometimes find myself feeling like a stranger in a strange land. On the other hand, I do participate in groups of like-minded clergy where I am strengthened for the struggle that is part of being a confessional Lutheran in a theologically shaky church. There are, indeed, good and faithful people in the midst of the morass and I can’t bring myself to leave them behind.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Pastor Gary,
When I speak critically of the ELCA, I always do it with the knowledge that there are good confessional Lutherans struggling in the way you are, my family members included. I also know that, in most ways, the ELCA remains consistent with the Confessions. I pray constantly for my Lutheran siblings in the ELCA, that the Spirit will guide and protect.

His peace,
Jon

 

[hn160]

I feel your pain. I am a pastor in the ELCA and I find myself at odds with the church on several issues – the sexuality decisions and the “full communion” agreements with church bodies that deny (or, at least, do not believe in) the Real Presence.

My decision to remain with the ELCA is not easy – I sometimes find myself feeling like a stranger in a strange land. On the other hand, I do participate in groups of like-minded clergy where I am strengthened for the struggle that is part of being a confessional Lutheran in a theologically shaky church. There are, indeed, good and faithful people in the midst of the morass and I can’t bring myself to leave them behind.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Are you a member of Lutheran CORE or some other group?

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Pastor Gnuss, I agree with what you say. By nature I am a fighter, so having the odds against me seems about right, especially if God is in my corner. What hurts me the most is that this whole set of issues has distracted us from service to others.

There is a rabbinical story that says that it only takes a fool to drop a pebble into the water, and not a thousand sages can stop the ripples. This can be seen negatively, but I prefer to see it positively. And I have a whole handful of rocks.

 

[ndismyhome]

What hurts me the most is that this whole set of issues has distracted us from service to others.

Worse still, this mess, in all its myriad forms, distracts us from proper worship and reverence of the Holy Trinity, which is the only proper basis for service to the neighbor.

 

[hn160]

The LCA and the other groups that merged to form the ELCA started the the slippery slope when they changed their view of Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions and began to ordain women. Anytime that you have an assembly that thinks that it has the voice of the Holy Spirit, this is what you have homosexual ordination, open communion with whatever, next will be homosexual marriage in the church and who knows what else.

 

[ndismyhome]

hn160- The “slope” actually predates ordination of women. You can thank the confluence of Calvinism, Liberal Christian scholarship, and “community focused” liturgy that produced the ELCA. Well, at least the first two do.