Major theological differences between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches

[dmar198]

I agree with you that a perfect church does not exist, but I am troubled by the direction our church is taking right now. The one quote of the pope’s interview which deeply troubled me was “the dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not equivalent.” He then fails to explain what he means by this. If the church’s dogmatic teachings do not spring from and support her moral teachings why are they there? This is an accusation which the Eastern Orthodox Church has made against the Catholic Church, that her dogmas relate more to earthly concerns than to apostolic teaching. Is the pope in agreement with this? We don’t know because he fails to clarify his statement. This statement and the fact that his favourite writer is Dostoyevsky might lead one to believe that he is leaning towards the Orthodox Church.
Don’t jump all over me, I assume he’s not, but I would like someone to explain that statement.

I think that when he said that not all of our teachings are equivalent he was referring to the hierarchy of truths, which is an important part of Catholic tradition. The Second Vatican Council says: In ecumenical dialogue, Catholic theologians standing fast by the teaching of the Church and investigating the divine mysteries with the separated brethren must proceed with love for the truth, with charity, and with humility. When comparing doctrines with one another, they should remember that in Catholic doctrine there exists a “hierarchy” of truths, since they vary in their relation to the fundamental Christian faith. Thus the way will be opened by which through fraternal rivalry all will be stirred to a deeper understanding and a clearer presentation of the unfathomable riches of Christ.

• Second Vatican Council, Unitatis Redintegratio, Paragraph 11 The pope was engaging in a dialog meant to reach out to secularism. Secularists appreciate our teachings about love and mercy and all that, so that’s what the pope focused on, because he wants to build agreement without which we can’t talk about the things we disagree on. He was following Catholic tradition and giving us an example to do the same.

 

[dzheremi]

Speaking from the other side of the Nile (so you can hopefully see I have no dog in this particular fight), I would not trust anyone outside of the communion you’re actually looking into to provide the information you are looking for, meaning: If you are looking for Eastern Orthodox differences, go to Eastern Orthodox sources (not to the exclusion of also asking Catholics for their viewpoint if you want it, but I guarantee you that the answers that you will get from each will be very different, and that itself should be instructive). The errors found in many surely well-meaning posts by Catholics in this thread are so obvious that even I can see them, despite their not being directed at my communion in particular (save the perfunctory use of the Oriental Orthodox as a cudgel against the Eastern Orthodox; please stop doing this, Catholic people…it is an affront to each of our communions, and human dignity and reasonableness in general). As someone who was once Roman Catholic and became Orthodox (albeit not of the communion you are looking at), I would also suggest in a very general way that you perhaps take a break, after devoting a suitable amount of time to studying differences as they are presented by both sides, from any apologetic material. When you are conflicted and unsure, it is easy to stay that way due to your own inability to properly vet sources and make up your own mind. You must trust that the Holy Spirit will show you the path which you are to follow, not any people on a message board or in a book, regardless of their jurisdiction. God knows your heart better than you do, and His strength is made perfect in weakness, so do not be afraid to admit and face the limitations you are likely to confront at some point in your discernment. You are not a mathematician being guided by proofs, but a seeker being guided (we should hope) by God. By all means study and seek to your intellect’s content, but do not neglect prayer and submission in humility in favor of things that may be summarized in bullet points. In baptism, we are to take off the old man and put on the new and superior one (to paraphrase a line from the midnight praises of my tradition). You may start that process now, if you wish, by being transformed by the renewal of your mind, rather than (strictly speaking) a hardening around this or that particular position (as though religion is simply a set of propositions to be intellectually assented to; I think the communion you’re looking into might have a few things to say about a thing or two to say about this “list item” view of the faith).

God be with you.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’ve been reading about the Eastern Orthodox Church and can find little difference in doctrine either than the teaching of the immaculate conception and the question of whether the Holy Spirit emanates from god the father or the son. There is also the question of papal infallibility. Is this it, or is there more I’ve missed?

In the ever growing destructive exchanges between extreme liberal and conservative Roman Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox Church seems to be beckoning me as a sea of tranquility. Am I mistaken as seeing the Orthodox Church as basically united on doctrine?

Take you time and move prayerfully slow.

It took me about 6 years to make the final decision of coming back to the Catholic Church, and it was very humbling on my part because I criticized several of the doctrines, including the one you are questioning now.

What others have said about meeting with Pastors and Priests, is very important indeed. I met several times throughout the years with several Priests and Pastors and asked a lot of questions. Never be afraid to ask the hard question and if you don’t understand something, don’t make a decision about it in haste. But in prayer.

Prayer will be the one thing that will help you the most.

Also, something that completely made a big difference on me - ready Scriptures with an open mind and an open heart.

Don’t read the Scriptures looking for something you have convinced yourself of believing. But make yourself a humble student of the Spirit of God. On those passages where you are having difficulty - forget all these new apologists and hip innovators. Go to the root - was there a Church after Christ’s resurrection? What did they do? What did they believe? How did they handled difficult passages?

Read the Councils, the Early Church Fathers, but more importantly - Read the Gospel several times!

Read for yourself what Jesus said. Make notes - look for qualifiers (if, unless, must). Then go ahead and read the Catena Aurea, Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Ireneaus, et al.

And then go back to the Gospel.

They also have their trials and tribulations. We all have houses with roofs made of glass.

May God Bless you on your journey.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Great information

It is actually quite lousy information, especially the bit about divorce and contraception being permitted, because he seems to think that we take it lightly. Second marriages in Orthodoxy (after the death of a spouse) are already considered to be pollutions, and those who contracted such marriages were put into penance (i.e., exclusion from the eucharist) for a year (see the canons of St. Basil). A third marriage (called by St. Basil unlawful and only permissible because it is better than unrestrained fornication) was yet more unthinkable to the ancients who penanced those who contracted a third marriage with three (sometimes even as many as five) years of excommunication, and then only permitting them to commune three or four times a year after they had carried out their three year sentence of excommunication.

The idea that one can simply divorce twice and marry thrice on a whim is gravely mistaken, for bishops may refuse to allow a divorce (by applying akriveia in the case) or for remarriage after the divorce. Remarriage (for any reason, including the death of a spouse) and divorce are both grave sins, which is why any clergyman who would attempt either is defrocked. Divorce is only made acceptable by an act of condescension from the bishop (performed through oikonomia), which basically allows for one who has divorced and remarried to be readmitted to the Eucharist, just as the digamist or trigamist (all of whom cut themselves off from the communion of the Church by their actions) is readmitted to communion after an appropriate period of penance.

Similarly, the point on contraception is deceptive, because we in Orthodoxy have not denied the patristic understanding that sexual intercourse is for the purpose of procreation (except for a few modernists, but then Roman Catholic modernists do the same). We have only changed the disciplinary and pastoral approach, such that the penalty of excommunication no longer applies to the use of contraception (even some popes in the past too set the disciplinary custom to be not to subject those who used contraception to excommunication).

 

[Cavaradossi]

What you said on the differences are correct, but unfortunately they are a bit like the Protestants, there are different branches and not any two are connected to each other, for example, the Russian Orthodox, are not united with the Greek/Serbian or any other Orthodox nor they with the Russian Orthodox…

Manifestly false. The fourteen de jure (fifteen de facto) autocephalous Orthodox Churches are all in communion with one another. One only has to look to the celebrations of the 1025th anniversary of the baptism of the Rus to realize this fact, as the heads of most Orthodox Churches were personally present (or represented by a vicar), and all partook of one common Eucharist, which is the ultimate manifestation of unity between churches.

 

[Richca]

I disagree with your anti-Orthodox views. If the poster genuinely believes the Holy Spirit is leading her to the Orthodox Church (which by the way also considers themselves the One, True, Church) then I would not discount that. And I certainly would not label this as the work of Satan. Please…

There is freedom to be found at the cross of Christ

Should bben15 be labeled anti-Orthodox because he believes in the teaching of the Catholic Church and of Jesus Christ? It is the work of the Holy Spirit to lead one to the truth. If the Catholic Church is the one, true Church of Christ, why would the Holy Spirit lead one away from it and away from Christ? Satan can transform himself into an angel of light for he is prowling about like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. We need to resist him solid in our faith. I pray that one day soon all the Orthodox Churches will be united with us and I consider them all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[anthonymarie]

No, if anything this makes your schism worse. You believe it is over nothing, we believe there are serious issues.

As a matter of interest, if you don’t mind me asking, which issue(s) would an Orthodox see as the most serious?

 

[Dan_in_Georgia]

To suggest a different approach to the problem, may I suggest looking at the history of Israel. Not much is said about the historical parallels between Israel and the Church. Israel once split into two kingdoms–Judah and the Levitical priesthood on one side and the 10 “lost tribes” on the other side. Judah was kept intact up until the time of Jesus, because there was a promise made by Jacob that the “scepter would not depart from Judah” until it comes to whom it belongs. The scepter is a symbol of authority similar to the keys that were given to Peter. In the Great Schism there was a similar split between the Holy See of Peter and the Eastern Churches. Like the 10 lost tribes were eventually assimilated by the Assyrians, the Eastern churches were eventually conquered by the Muslims and have never regained their former glory. All that was left of Israel by the time of Jesus was Judah and those who attached themselves to Judah just as now in the Church all that is left is the Catholic Church and those who attach themselves to it. Individual Eastern Churches are attaching themselves to the Catholic Church. So in the history of Israel, there was a lot of bad leadership and controversies but that didn’t end God’s preservation of Israel until the time of Jesus, and bad leadership and controversies will not prevail against the Church that Jesus established “on this rock”, the Catholic Church, until the Second Coming.

 

[dzheremi]

I wouldn’t go trying that analogy on a Greek, Serb, or Russian anytime soon, Dan. The Russians in particular are famous for their crosses which depict quite explicitly the victory of Christianity over Islam in their land, and that symbolism is entirely intentional:

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For those of us who are still in Muslim-dominated lands, we have to be content with more sly forms of protest, such as cross tattoos in the Coptic and Tewahedo traditions (which I suppose are not always sly, since Tewahedo women will sometimes get them on their faces, but in either case they discourage kidnapping and forced conversion), or the once-popular proper name “Jihad” in Arabic-speaking Christian communities in the Levant (no prizes for guessing what kind of jihad this was referring to when used as a Christian’s given name; it was not Muhammad’s).

At any rate, no Muslim cares or likely even understands the difference if he or she kills a Catholic Christian or an Orthodox Christian or one of any other confession, as recent events in Egypt, Pakistan, and Kenya show (Lord have mercy), so please rethink such a thoughtless and callous analogy. Neither Rome nor Alexandria nor Constantinople are our Savior; only Christ is.

 

[Dan_in_Georgia]

It’s interesting how all 4 patriarchates that broke with Rome eventually became dominated by Muslims just like the 10 tribes that split with Judah eventually became assimilated by the Assyrians. The Hagia Sophia is now a museum. Even Russia was dominated by communism and the local bishops basically rolled over for the communists. Rome has always been a Christian-dominated land. Rome also went through a 70-year “Babylonian exile” like Judah did during the Avignon papacy. History repeats itself, and the leader of the 12 apostles is Peter just like the leader of the 12 tribes was Judah.

 

[Origen52]

I am thankful to my Orthodox brethren for the information they have provided. Thank you and be certain that I at no time believed that orthodox churches are anything but devoutly Christian. I also thank Catholics who have asked me to take the time to consider this carefully. I will certainly pray, study and meditate on this.

What I can’t face is another brawl like that I experienced during the sixties and seventies. I was a lot younger then, but trying to sort out the right path between two intransigent, warring factions was mentally exhausting. I can see the signs of the same madness returning to our church. If the words of our leader are stirring up such controversy and unleashing animosity, how can we say we have the true faith? Liberals are crowing in triumph, conservatives are desperately trying to interpret the Pope’s words to match their beliefs. the man’s words are readily available to us all, how can no one clearly understand them? I guess after John Paul II and Benedict, I expected more unity in the church. But looking at the upheaval which has been unleashed in only six months, I wonder if there is any solid foundation to our church.

Perhaps the stability I’m looking for does not exist in the Orthodox Church, but it will be interesting discovering that. At the least it will take my mind off this insane battle between two intransigent sides.

 

[Reuben_J]

I agree with you that a perfect church does not exist, but I am troubled by the direction our church is taking right now. The one quote of the pope’s interview which deeply troubled me was “the dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not equivalent.” He then fails to explain what he means by this. If the church’s dogmatic teachings do not spring from and support her moral teachings why are they there? This is an accusation which the Eastern Orthodox Church has made against the Catholic Church, that her dogmas relate more to earthly concerns than to apostolic teaching. Is the pope in agreement with this? We don’t know because he fails to clarify his statement. This statement and the fact that his favourite writer is Dostoyevsky might lead one to believe that he is leaning towards the Orthodox Church.
Don’t jump all over me, I assume he’s not, but I would like someone to explain that statement.

Hi.I am not sure where you got the quote from the Pope. If it is from the media, I would not read too much into it. One would usually get the headlines, usually sensational, and there can never be sufficient detail explanation to the reported statement. In other word, it is better to ignore such report.

The mind of the Pope is always better reflected in encyclicals and papal documents. Until we study them in details, no media reporting would do justice in communicating the Pope’s thought to the Catholics mass.

In any case, no reason is big enough for us to leave the Church; certainly not because of the Catholics themselves whether liberals, traditionals or conservatives, or even the Popes. The grass on the other sides is not always greener and we could only find ourselves in the same predicament as before.

I suggest you immerse yourself in prayers as often we are quite lacking, receive the Sacraments and study the word of God. By doing all these we may not have time to allow our mind to wander and be idle because these are always dangerous to our spiritual lives.

This is by no mean that I am stopping you in your endeavour if you want to leave but leave only when you do not believe that the Church is the true Church anymore.

 

[jimmy]

It’s interesting how all 4 patriarchates that broke with Rome eventually became dominated by Muslims just like the 10 tribes that split with Judah eventually became assimilated by the Assyrians. The Hagia Sophia is now a museum. Even Russia was dominated by communism and the local bishops basically rolled over for the communists. Rome has always been a Christian-dominated land. Rome also went through a 70-year “Babylonian exile” like Judah did during the Avignon papacy. History repeats itself, and the leader of the 12 apostles is Peter just like the leader of the 12 tribes was Judah.

Have you ever been to Europe? What percent of people in Rome do you think go to mass on Sunday? Or Paris? The church in Rome is dead, and the only reason there are people in the churches is because of tourism.

You’re really going to blame the eastern Christians because they live in a land ruled by Muslims? Maybe you should blame Ignatius of Antioch for the Romans who sent him to the lions.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

It’s interesting how all 4 patriarchates that broke with Rome eventually became dominated by Muslims just like the 10 tribes that split with Judah eventually became assimilated by the Assyrians. The Hagia Sophia is now a museum. Even Russia was dominated by communism and the local bishops basically rolled over for the communists. Rome has always been a Christian-dominated land. Rome also went through a 70-year “Babylonian exile” like Judah did during the Avignon papacy. History repeats itself, and the leader of the 12 apostles is Peter just like the leader of the 12 tribes was Judah.

So The Muslim Yoke was a punishment from God because we rejected the Innovations of Universal Jurisdiction and Papal Infallibility?

Seriously? I suppose you could flip it and say that the Avignon Papacy, Protestant “Reformation” and subsequent wars and chaos was a punishment from God for Rome abandoning Orthodoxy and embracing power politics.

Neither is very helpful.

 

[Reuben_J]

It’s interesting how all 4 patriarchates that broke with Rome eventually became dominated by Muslims just like the 10 tribes that split with Judah eventually became assimilated by the Assyrians. The Hagia Sophia is now a museum. Even Russia was dominated by communism and the local bishops basically rolled over for the communists. Rome has always been a Christian-dominated land. Rome also went through a 70-year “Babylonian exile” like Judah did during the Avignon papacy. History repeats itself, and the leader of the 12 apostles is Peter just like the leader of the 12 tribes was Judah.

I cannot understand why this being brought up at all. What is the point in this?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

It’s interesting how all 4 patriarchates that broke with Rome eventually became dominated by Muslims just like the 10 tribes that split with Judah eventually became assimilated by the Assyrians. The Hagia Sophia is now a museum. Even Russia was dominated by communism and the local bishops basically rolled over for the communists. Rome has always been a Christian-dominated land. Rome also went through a 70-year “Babylonian exile” like Judah did during the Avignon papacy. History repeats itself, and the leader of the 12 apostles is Peter just like the leader of the 12 tribes was Judah.

Ugh… wrong place, wrong time, wrong comment.

The OP is trying to discern a spiritual path, this does not help at all…

 

[dzheremi]

I think using temporal politics to try to prove anything one way or another about a particular church (yours or mine) is unwise, bordering on unbalanced. What is important is this. In wisdom, let us attend.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

I am thankful to my Orthodox brethren for the information they have provided. Thank you and be certain that I at no time believed that orthodox churches are anything but devoutly Christian. I also thank Catholics who have asked me to take the time to consider this carefully. I will certainly pray, study and meditate on this.

What I can’t face is another brawl like that I experienced during the sixties and seventies. I was a lot younger then, but trying to sort out the right path between two intransigent, warring factions was mentally exhausting. I can see the signs of the same madness returning to our church. If the words of our leader are stirring up such controversy and unleashing animosity, how can we say we have the true faith? Liberals are crowing in triumph, conservatives are desperately trying to interpret the Pope’s words to match their beliefs. the man’s words are readily available to us all, how can no one clearly understand them? I guess after John Paul II and Benedict, I expected more unity in the church. But looking at the upheaval which has been unleashed in only six months, I wonder if there is any solid foundation to our church.

Perhaps the stability I’m looking for does not exist in the Orthodox Church, but it will be interesting discovering that. At the least it will take my mind off this insane battle between two intransigent sides.

God be with you.

 

[Nine_Two]

I think, perhaps, Dan might gain a bit of understanding into the Orthodox Church if he looked into the other Georgia. It shows the lie in his statements more than anything else will ever demonstrate to him.

 

[dzheremi]

Well I don’t know about the rest of you, but I certainly feel inner spiritual peace and stillness when listening to Georgian Orthodox chant, for whatever that’s worth.

Bottom line, OP: Experience the faith you are drawn to, and go from there. Words from either ‘side’ on the internet can only take you so far (and often to places that you shouldn’t go, if you’re still in the process of discerning…heck, even if you’re not…Lord have mercy). May the Lord guide you and protect you.