Major theological differences between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches

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It’s interesting how all 4 patriarchates that broke with Rome eventually became dominated by Muslims just like the 10 tribes that split with Judah eventually became assimilated by the Assyrians. The Hagia Sophia is now a museum.
Funny that you should mention that, since the the official policy of the court and the bishops of Constantinople was officially unionist (which is to say, in union with Rome) in the decade leading to the city’s fall to the Turks. Some even claimed the opposite of what you are claiming, that the fall of this city to the Turks was divine retribution against Constantinople for her adoption of unionist policies. Also, some of the patriarchates, like the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, fell into the hands of Arab invaders far before the East-West schism occurred (Patriarch of Sophronius in fact placed blame the fall of Jerusalem to the Arabs on the rise of the heresy of monothelitism). Also, what are you to make of your own coreligionists (like the Maronites), who despite being united to Rome also suffered under the yoke of Muslim domination? Frankly, your polemical twisting of history is untenable.
 
It’s interesting how all 4 patriarchates that broke with Rome eventually became dominated by Muslims just like the 10 tribes that split with Judah eventually became assimilated by the Assyrians. The Hagia Sophia is now a museum. Even Russia was dominated by communism and the local bishops basically rolled over for the communists. Rome has always been a Christian-dominated land. Rome also went through a 70-year “Babylonian exile” like Judah did during the Avignon papacy. History repeats itself, and the leader of the 12 apostles is Peter just like the leader of the 12 tribes was Judah.
Have you looked at Western Europe in the last 500 years?
 
As Blessed John Paul II said: Ut unum sint!

Benedict XVI was receiving advice from Constantinople’s Ecumenical Patriarch on an important ‘tool’ to heal the division:

pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-orthodox-church-and-summorum.html

It is well known that Pope Francis is very welcoming and open to the Eastern Divine Liturgy:

godwinxuereb.blogspot.com/ (see the photo in the left corner).

What a great day that would be when Christianity will breathe again with both its lungs (paraphrasing Blessed John Paul II).

I still recall the historic embrace between Paul VI and Athenagoras. What a day that was!
 
I really think there are no major theological differences. But more a difference in mindset and language. People think differently in Greek in Greek than Latin.

For example the filioque issue, it comes across differently in Greek than in Latin. But both churches believe the Spirit come from the Father through the Son.
 
As Blessed John Paul II said: Ut unum sint!

Benedict XVI was receiving advice from Constantinople’s Ecumenical Patriarch on an important ‘tool’ to heal the division:

pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-orthodox-church-and-summorum.html

It is well known that Pope Francis is very welcoming and open to the Eastern Divine Liturgy:

godwinxuereb.blogspot.com/ (see the photo in the left corner).

What a great day that would be when Christianity will breathe again with both its lungs (paraphrasing Blessed John Paul II).

I still recall the historic embrace between Paul VI and Athenagoras. What a day that was!
From the east it looks like the west has abandoned tradition. The west tossed its liturgy, and wrote a new one from scratch. With the lex orandi, lex credendi quote in mind, it implies a change in faith as well. They tossed what they believed before in favor of something new.

Also look at the fact that some westerners argue that Mary didn’t die. Because it isn’t part of the definition of P. Pius XII it isn’t required belief. So some in the west are willing to abandon tradition because the pope didn’t affirm it. The west consequently shows themselves to be anti tradition and minimalist. All that matters is the words of the pope.

If the west would return to the old liturgy it would be very good for the relationship with the east. It would show a dedication to the faith of the fathers and saints. It would show faithfulness to tradition.
 
As Blessed John Paul II said: Ut unum sint!

Benedict XVI was receiving advice from Constantinople’s Ecumenical Patriarch on an important ‘tool’ to heal the division:

pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-orthodox-church-and-summorum.html

It is well known that Pope Francis is very welcoming and open to the Eastern Divine Liturgy:

godwinxuereb.blogspot.com/ (see the photo in the left corner).

What a great day that would be when Christianity will breathe again with both its lungs (paraphrasing Blessed John Paul II).

I still recall the historic embrace between Paul VI and Athenagoras. What a day that was!
It will truly be a blessed day when full unity is achieved between the two oldest branches of Christianity. The voice of our orthodox brethren might break the cycle of animosity between extreme progressive and conservative Catholics.
If the Catholic Church ranks its dogmas in order of importance, maybe they might eliminate some of the more contentious ones. I may be wrong, but I think the biggest block to unity is the doctrine of papal infallibility. Since Francis has said he prefers to work in a community, he might be amenable to the bishop of Rome being first among equals. His aversion of living in the papal apartments must stem from more than living according to his vow of poverty, as he clearly states that the apartments are not luxurious. The argument that the apartments limit the people who can get through to see him, does not fully convince me. There would be no reason why he couldn’t have his meals at Casa Marta, or pick up the phone and call people to check on whether anyone is being blocked from seeing him. I truly believe he would like a more collegial approach for the papacy. Just my opinion, but let’s pray for advancement in the cause of unity.

Love to all my orthodox brothers who have taken the time to answer my questions.

I have one final request, is there a good website/s which could lead me to a clearer understanding before I begin talking with my priest?
 
It is actually quite lousy information, especially the bit about divorce and contraception being permitted, because he seems to think that we take it lightly.
All I said was that you permit it. I didn’t say anything about lightly. You could think it’s the worst permissible thing in the world; but since you permit people to divorce and remarry, and treat those marriages as valid, that constitutes a different doctrine than in the Catholic Church, where remarriages are automatically considered invalid until someone proves that the first marriage was never validly contracted in the first place.
Second marriages in Orthodoxy (after the death of a spouse) are already considered to be pollutions, and those who contracted such marriages were put into penance (i.e., exclusion from the eucharist) for a year…A third marriage…was yet more unthinkable to the ancients who penanced those who contracted a third marriage with three (sometimes even as many as five) years of excommunication, and then only permitting them to commune three or four times a year after they had carried out their three year sentence of excommunication.
The Church Fathers were almost unanimous in forbidding divorced persons to remarry. St. Augustine, for example, said, “It is unlawful for one who leaves her husband, even when she has been put away, to be married to another, so long as her husband lives, no not even for the sake of bearing children. … [Nor] is the marriage bond loosed, save by the death of the husband or wife.” Augustine, On the Good of Marriage, 24:32. Their near unanimity in this is in accordance with the New Testament and with Catholic teaching. Jesus forbade divorced persons to remarry, under pain of mortal sin, when He said, “He who marries a divorced woman, commits adultery.” (Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18, most manuscripts of Matthew 19:9, many manuscripts of Matthew 5:32) St. Paul forbade divorced persons to remarry when he said, “To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband – but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband. And that the husband should not divorce his wife.” 1 Cor. 7:11-12. The Orthodox permissions to remarry – after excommunication, and even though the first marriage is recognized as valid – constitutes a departure from these teachings.
See the canons of St. Basil
You mean where he said “A man who has put his wife away is not allowed to marry another, nor is a woman who has been divorced by her husband allowed to marry another man”? (Basil, Moralia, Rule 73, #2)
Or perhaps you mean Origen, who identified this practice and said multiple times that it is unusual and contrary to the Scriptures? (Origen, Corn. in Mt., 14, 23)
Or are you referring to that other great Eastern theologian, Chrysostom? He said multiple times that a woman who is put away from her husband can never remarry as long as he lives and no matter what she does. (Chrysostom, De lib. repudii, 3)
The idea that one can simply divorce twice and marry thrice on a whim is gravely mistaken
Nor is it what I said
for bishops may refuse to allow a divorce (by applying akriveia in the case) or for remarriage after the divorce. Remarriage (for any reason, including the death of a spouse) and divorce are both grave sins
St. Paul said that remarriage after the death of the spouse is no problem at all. Romans 7:2-3. But if you acknowledge that remarriage is a pollution and an adultery, then why do you permit those who are living in remarriage/adultery back to Communion?
Divorce is only made acceptable by an act of condescension from the bishop (performed through oikonomia), which basically allows for one who has divorced and remarried to be readmitted to the Eucharist, just as the digamist or trigamist (all of whom cut themselves off from the communion of the Church by their actions) is readmitted to communion after an appropriate period of penance.
Except the digamist and trigamist aren’t allowed to continue in their sinful relationships, and the remarry-er is.
According to Jesus, a person who remarries is living in adultery.
According to the Orthodox, a person who remarries is fine, as long as he goes through a ceremony which declares that his previous marriage is no longer in place. See the difference?
Similarly, the point on contraception is deceptive, because we in Orthodoxy have not denied the patristic understanding that sexual intercourse is for the purpose of procreation (except for a few modernists, but then Roman Catholic modernists do the same).
I’m glad to hear that. I hope that means that you extend that to mean that artificial contraception is impermissible. Everything I’ve seen says that the Orthodox permit couples to decide whether they want to use it or not, and it’s not a problem if they decide to. Perhaps this leads to a deeper problem: there seems to be no way to decide which Orthodox theologians are right without relying on your own judgment. How do you know the modernists are wrong? Because you interpret Tradition differently than they do? We know our modernists are wrong (without relying on private judgment) because the Magisterium has declared them wrong. For you guys, it seems like the modernist theologians have just as much credibility as the more traditional ones.
 
All I said was that you permit it. I didn’t say anything about lightly. You could think it’s the worst permissible thing in the world; but since you permit people to divorce and remarry, and treat those marriages as valid, that constitutes a different doctrine than in the Catholic Church, where remarriages are automatically considered invalid until someone proves that the first marriage was never validly contracted in the first place.
No second marriage (even after the death of one’s spouse) is valid in the same sense as the first marriage is valid. The fathers in the East universally understood second and third marriages after the death of one’s spouse in a negative fashion, regarding second marriages as sinful, and third marriages as defilements. Nevertheless, they readmitted those who had contracted these marriages after an appropriate period of penance without needing to put away the second or third spouse.
The Church Fathers were almost unanimous in forbidding divorced persons to remarry. St. Augustine, for example, said, “It is unlawful for one who leaves her husband, even when she has been put away, to be married to another, so long as her husband lives, no not even for the sake of bearing children. … [Nor] is the marriage bond loosed, save by the death of the husband or wife.” Augustine, On the Good of Marriage, 24:32.
This is not true, because at least from the time of St. Basil (who himself claims to be writing from older collections of canons), there has always been a provision in Eastern canon law for a man to divorce his wife and take another if she were to commit adultery. Also If a woman unlawfully leaves her husband, and a man takes another wife, he and the second woman he cohabits with are pardonable, though the woman who has unlawfully left her husband is not pardonable if she enters into a relationship with another man (see canon IX of St. Basil).
Their near unanimity in this is in accordance with the New Testament and with Catholic teaching. Jesus forbade divorced persons to remarry, under pain of mortal sin, when He said, “He who marries a divorced woman, commits adultery.” (Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18, most manuscripts of Matthew 19:9, many manuscripts of Matthew 5:32) St. Paul forbade divorced persons to remarry when he said, “To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband – but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband. And that the husband should not divorce his wife.” 1 Cor. 7:11-12.
Indeed, he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery, because that woman is still the wife of another. But ancient canon law has always provided that a man whose wife commits fornication (and thus commits adultery as well, since she is married) can be loosed from his wife and take another. The wife was usually forbidden to marry again under these circumstances because she had already caused the destruction of one marriage by her act of adultery.
The Orthodox permissions to remarry – after excommunication, and even though the first marriage is recognized as valid – constitutes a departure from these teachings.
It is simply the application of canon law as passed down by the Fathers, with the use of oikonomia and discernment. We continue to hold fast to the canons of the Holy Fathers as the rules for how the Church should be governed.
St. Paul said that remarriage after the death of the spouse is no problem at all. Romans 7:2-3.
According to canon law, widows were allowed to contract a second marriage without condemnation (whereas a widower who did so would be subject to a penance of one to two years), in accordance with this passage. But third marriages were considered to be unlawful and defilements, and fourth marriages were considered to be absolutely unlawful, and were absolutely prohibited.
 
Except the digamist and trigamist aren’t allowed to continue in their sinful relationships, and the remarry-er is.
Digamists and Trigamists (which in canon law refers to those who contracted second and third marriages after the death of their first spouse) need not separate from their second/third spouse (see canon 50 of St. Basil), but only need to carry out the penance assigned for trigamy or digamy.
According to Jesus, a person who remarries is living in a situation of adultery.
But with the provision that one who does so because of fornication is blameless (as understood by canon law and the words of Christ himself).
According to the Orthodox, a person who remarries is fine, as long as he goes through a ceremony which declares that his previous marriage is no longer in place.
Absolutely not. Marriages performed after an ecclesiastical divorce, just as third marriages (called by St. Basil, ‘mitigated fornication’) are defilements. They are only permitted because it is better than one falling into unrestrained fornication.
See the difference?
We follow only what has been passed down. Perhaps there have been abuses (the entire Moechian Controversy, involving St. Theodore the Studite and Emperor Constantine VI surrounded such an abuse of canon law), but we have not changed what is permissible by canon law, though we may apply it in different ways with discernment through oikonomia (which is the right of every bishop). If there is a difference, then it constitutes a difference which was already present in the days when the East and West were in communion, and how then can you condemn us for such practices when your own Western predecessors did not?
Perhaps this leads to a deeper problem: there seems to be no way to decide which Orthodox theologians are right without relying on your own judgment. How do you know the modernists are wrong? Because you interpret Tradition differently than they do? We know our modernists are wrong (without relying on private judgment) because the Magisterium has declared them wrong. For you guys, it seems like the modernist theologians have just as much credibility as the more traditional ones.
This fear of exercising ‘private judgment’ seems to be a very odd and relatively modern Roman Catholic phenomenon. The fathers themselves did not discourage people from testing doctrines and teachings they encountered using their own private sense of judgment, which should be informed by the study of the Scriptures as properly interpreted by the fathers, the general councils, and the tradition of instruction which one has received. St. Vincent of Lerins, in fact, wrote an entire treatise on this topic, of how one should test the doctrines of others to see if they are consistent with the Catholic faith.
 
Have you ever been to Europe? What percent of people in Rome do you think go to mass on Sunday? Or Paris? The church in Rome is dead, and the only reason there are people in the churches is because of tourism.

You’re really going to blame the eastern Christians because they live in a land ruled by Muslims? Maybe you should blame Ignatius of Antioch for the Romans who sent him to the lions.
  1. This is not about church fervor, it is about parallel history.
  2. No but I will blame them for not re-uniting with Rome under presser from the Muslims.
 
So The Muslim Yoke was a punishment from God because we rejected the Innovations of Universal Jurisdiction and Papal Infallibility?

Seriously? I suppose you could flip it and say that the Avignon Papacy, Protestant “Reformation” and subsequent wars and chaos was a punishment from God for Rome abandoning Orthodoxy and embracing power politics.

Neither is very helpful.
Remember that during the Israelite split, both sides had faults. But God maintained Judah as a fulfillment of the ancient oracle that the scepter would not depart from Judah, and because of his promise to David, just like God maintained the Roman Church as a fulfillment of the promise to Peter that hell would not prevail against the church.

Avignon Papacy was not a punishment for abandoning Orthodox any more than the Babylonian exile was a punishment to Judah for “abandoning” the 10 tribes of Israel. Rome had a 70-year exile just like Judah did which was the Avignon Papacy. Orthodox did not have this because they were prefigured by the lost tribes, not Judah.

I’m still looking into the Protestant Deformation, but what it initially reminds me of in Israelite history is when the Samaritans broke off of the Jews and set up a phony priesthood and an incorrect version of the Torah, and built a rival temple on Mount Gerizim.
 
  1. This is not about church fervor, it is about parallel history.
  2. No but I will blame them for not re-uniting with Rome under presser from the Muslims.
Ok, so the analogy has no basis and it just sounds good to you. I got it.
 
All I said was that you permit it. I didn’t say anything about lightly. You could think it’s the worst permissible thing in the world; but since you permit people to divorce and remarry, and treat those marriages as valid, that constitutes a different doctrine than in the Catholic Church, where remarriages are automatically considered invalid until someone proves that the first marriage was never validly contracted in the first place.
Really, dmar, you’re going to base your argument for the superiority of the Catholic Church on its stance on marriage? How many prominent catholic politicians have had little trouble having first marriages annulled after years of marriage and the birth of several children? I won’t list names because I know that’s frowned on in this forum and I don’t want this thread disappeared, but we all know who these politicians are. I find the orthodox approach more honest. It recognizes that people sometimes make mistakes, and sometimes drift apart. I had a close connection to a woman whose marriage was annulled after over ten years of marriage and three children. She was devastated, not only by her husband’s betrayal, but by her church telling her that a marriage she knew was valid was considered to never have been a marriage.

If your motivation for your posts on this thread are to convince me that I should remain a catholic because our church is superior to all others, I thank you for what I think comes from an honest place. Unfortunately it is this triumphalist attitude held by conservative and progressive extremists in our church which makes me question the whole institution. Both sides can’t be right, I’m just starting to wonder whether either side is correct. I may be wrong, but my instincts tell me that a church which holds the true teachings of Christ should be more cohesive.
 
I will now thank everyone who has taken the time to write to me. But, I will stop reading this thread because I think I have gotten as much as I can from it. Once again thanks to all who took the effort to write.

Much love and peace
 
Hello. I am not sure if I should start a new thread with regard to the original question asked, but if so, I’m sure I will be directed accordingly.

As can be seen from my bio, this is my first post here, other than an introduction. The question asked about the differences between the Eastern and Roman Rite Catholic Church cited the issue of the Filioque as one difference. If the originator of the thread truly wishes to begin the lifelong journey of understanding the riff between the two “Rites” of the same Church, may I suggest beginning by reading the Wiki link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque

which should provide enough “for further reading” to last many years. A word of caution, even the Wiki overview of the Filioque issue is hotly contested and disputed, as you can see by reading the heading. But if you are truly interested, it would be a great place to start your journey. I would encourage you to do so, you never know where it might lead.

Now for my “question”. I have been told by close Catholic friends whom I respect and trust that the line in our Creed, which states: “who proceeds from the Father and Son” is the only declarative statement in our Creed that DOES NOT have its origin in an Ecumenical Council of the Church.

I’m hopeful that the learned Folks here can leave the arguments and justifications of the Filioque issue to another time, but can or cannot verify this historical Ecumenical Council omission as simply truth or fiction. I have had both Deacons and Priests hotly deny the fact this line was “outside” of the discernment of any Ecumenical Council at the time it was placed there. Yet, in my reading and research, it seems that indeed in 1014 the Pope inserted the declarative sentence in question without the discernment of an Ecumenical Council. I realize the Church has had 999 years to rectify this omission, if correct, and has chosen not to do so.

I have read, a number of times, Saint Thomas Aquinas’s account of the Filioque and, to the best ability of this simple layman’s mind, have attempted to comprehend the reasoning and rational of the Roman Rite’s understanding of the Filioque.

Yet, I really would like this issue, in my own mind, to be put to rest. It will not change my belief or my thirst for truth or my faith in any meaningful way, I just wish to have the issue resolved in my own simple mind.

I would appreciate simple answers to what would seem a simple, yet very profound
answer.

With Grace For Us All,

RT
 
So The Muslim Yoke was a punishment from God because we rejected the Innovations of Universal Jurisdiction and Papal Infallibility?

Seriously? I suppose you could flip it and say that the Avignon Papacy, Protestant “Reformation” and subsequent wars and chaos was a punishment from God for Rome abandoning Orthodoxy and embracing power politics.

Neither is very helpful.
Perhaps if we were still one Church, the world would know that Jesus was sent by the Father.

But more than this, I think there is possibly a parallel to be considered: Protestantism is to Catholicism what the Gentiles were to the Jews. Here’s how:

In Romans 11, Paul wrote of the Jews:

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Is it possible that God has allowed the Protestants to enjoy his favor for a time in order to make Catholics envious or jealous? After all, as we are constantly being reminded, the Church had fallen into some bad habits prior to the Reformation. Maybe God raised up Protestantism for a time in order to make Catholics hungry again.
 
Perhaps if we were still one Church, the world would know that Jesus was sent by the Father.

But more than this, I think there is possibly a parallel to be considered: Protestantism is to Catholicism what the Gentiles were to the Jews. Here’s how:

In Romans 11, Paul wrote of the Jews:

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Is it possible that God has allowed the Protestants to enjoy his favor for a time in order to make Catholics envious or jealous? After all, as we are constantly being reminded, the Church had fallen into some bad habits prior to the Reformation. Maybe God raised up Protestantism for a time in order to make Catholics hungry again.
I don’t know, Randy. But that line of thinking sounds kinda dispensationalist to me. Difference being is that Christ established a New Covenant. There is no such thing with Protestantism. Protestantism is a wound to the Church in the same manner the Great Schism is a wound - neither of which is a New Covenant.

But that’s just my fallible interpretation.
 
Hi all, I’m coming in a bit late on this discussion.

I really must say that, despite my long experience with this forum, I’m still a bit amazed with how fast this discussion turn into a anti-Orthodox vs anti-Catholic thing. :rolleyes:
 
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