Majorly Confused

[ParvaDei]

(Before I begin, I really don’t know if I put this in the correct forum, but it seemed like the best to put this question, so please bear with me.)

I’ve been looking up on mysticism lately, and as I was doing my research, I was a bit confused by some of the experiences that the mystics had (such as locutions, visions, etc.) because they seem to be similar to delusions and hallucinations (as per my basic college-level psych class) – not that I’m denying these gifts of the Holy Spirit exist but that they can be very similar to psychotic symptoms. (Actually, I think that even the gift of the discernment of spirits – the intuitive, mystical, untrained kind, mind you – may be in a similar situation here.)

However, since I have a priest-friend (who I will not name for privacy reasons) who has some of these things (and he’s mentally stable and coherent as far as I can tell), I just want to know if there is some guide to figuring out where the mysticism ends and the delusion begins.

Thanks for your help!

P.S. If there’s anybody who’s going to go into a tangent about how every mystical experience is an illusion, please don’t do so. This made under the assumption that mystical experiences can exist without psychosis.

 

[bmullins]

I think it’s safe to say if the visions you are having teach a different gospel than the one handed on by the apostles, then it’s not a vision from God. If it lines up with the gospel, and seems to make the person a better Catholic/Christian, then whether it’s a delusions or a gift from above, it can still be used for good.

The problem is in our society we tend to say if you hear or see anything that isn’t ‘normal’, then the explanation is you are having delusions. We want to rationalize too much. As people of faith, we need to keep our minds open and not limit God to the normal, and scientific. That is what faith is all about.

 

[pbecke]

Your college-level psychology course, Majorly Confused, may well have been framed in accordance with the received wisdom of our belligerently materialist zeitgeist, nowhere more rabidly adhered to than in the sphere of science(.i.e. scientism); so I shouldn’t place too much store on the material in that course.

This is not to deny the occurrence of such events in psychoses, but it is a factor that it would be prudent to take into account, together with an, at least, equally significant consideration: I mean that science is out of its depths in the area of mysticism, and the aspiration of a field such as psychology to enjoy the ‘cachet’ of science, is accordingly more than a little sad, in view of the severe limitations of current science to analyse the mind.

To get some idea of the wretched, corporate-driven scientific establishment’s lunacy, the ID site below is a gem, exposing it often with a dry wit:

uncommondescent.com/philosophy/the-reason-for-imperfect-self-destructing-designs-passover-and-easter-thoughts/

You might also find of interest this article concerning the apparent dualism of mind and body, as inferred from near-death experiences, as well as what seems to this layman, at least, a highly plausible theory concerning the role of the brain.

science-spirituality.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Mysticism

 

[Justicia_et_Pax]

(Before I begin, I really don’t know if I put this in the correct forum, but it seemed like the best to put this question, so please bear with me.)

I’ve been looking up on mysticism lately, and as I was doing my research, I was a bit confused by some of the experiences that the mystics had (such as locutions, visions, etc.) because they seem to be similar to delusions and hallucinations (as per my basic college-level psych class) – not that I’m denying these gifts of the Holy Spirit exist but that they can be very similar to psychotic symptoms. (Actually, I think that even the gift of the discernment of spirits – the intuitive, mystical, untrained kind, mind you – may be in a similar situation here.)

However, since I have a priest-friend (who I will not name for privacy reasons) who has some of these things (and he’s mentally stable and coherent as far as I can tell), I just want to know if there is some guide to figuring out where the mysticism ends and the delusion begins.

Thanks for your help!

P.S. If there’s anybody who’s going to go into a tangent about how every mystical experience is an illusion, please don’t do so. This made under the assumption that mystical experiences can exist without psychosis.

I’m schizoaffective and suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. The main symptom of my schizoaffective disorder is hallucinations, mainly of the auditory variety. I hear various types of voices talking to me, saying all kinds of things (usually of the negative/destructive variety).

I also hear religious voices. Some of these voices are good and some of them are very very bad. Some of them are bad masquerading as good and some of them I just don’t know.

What you might find interesting to know is that a) both my psychiatrist and my confessor are in agreement that the religious voices probably aren’t a medical/psychotic phenomenon. My confessor thinks I’m sensitive to the spiritual realm and that I am being called to mystical prayer. My psychiatrist isn’t as forthright and I don’t think he’s a Christian (or perhaps of any religion at all) but he says the religious voices are not within his remit and that he doesn’t believe medicine can do anything about them. That’s not for lack of trying: we’ve been experimenting with medicines and therapies for well over a year now.

Also, it is quite clear to me what is a religious voice, what are my own (dissociated) thoughts and what are auditory hallucinations. How do I know? It’s not really a science: it’s more a gut instinct/feeling. Those of course can be wrong… but I don’t believe they often are. So how can I differentiate the religious voices from one another, and the religious voices from my psychosis? Answer: discernment of the spirits. Or the fact that I have great insight into my condition and am relatively high-functioning compared to most people. Or perhaps a combination of both?!

 

[Splagchnizomai]

I’d recommend reading Fr Benedict Groeschel’s A Still, Small Voice: A Practical Guide on Reported Revelations. Though it may not help you specifically discern the line between mysticism and delusion, it could help in properly discerning mystical visions and experiences, which are generally known as private revelations.

Father Groeschel, the highly respected author, psychologist, spiritual director and leader of renewal in the religious life, has written a brief but comprehensive practical guide for all those interested in private revelations, the reports of visions and other extraordinary religious phenomena that are so widespread in these times. Because of the intense interest in extraordinary religious experience that ranges from Medjugorje to the New Age, Groeschel’s book is an urgently needed resource that gives practical norms to everyone on how to evaluate these claims. Drawing on spiritual classics and Church documents not readily available, he summarizes the Church’s perennial wisdom on this topic.

He also offers an alternative to unusual and extraordinary ways of knowing the things of God, which is a normal everyday opportunity open to all called “religious experience”–the action of grace operating in the context of a human life that can become a powerful source of virtue and holiness. Father Groeschel skillfully directs the reader to the humbler and safer path which discerns God’s presence in prayer, Scripture, the sacraments and love of neighbor. The great example of this path to holiness is St. Therese of Lisieux who, though having very few extraordinary experiences, was filled with a profound awareness of God’s presence and said, “To ecstasy, I prefer the monotony of sacrifice.”

 

[pbecke]

It seems that mystical experiences tend to mean that the person concerned is in for some very heavy trials even if - as most people tend to - he/she thinks they’ve already suffered more than enough already.

On the other hand, I’m not sure that’s helpful, as, presumably psychoses and attendant hallucinations would scarcely be a picnic. As regards faith qua intellectual assent, or belief, presumably it would have been a given for the Apostles, so the only question that remained was how heavy the trials they would bear.

The Passionist priest, St Paul of the Cross, is said to have eventually expostulated to God, pleading, at the onset of theophanies, “No more, God, please.” So maybe we should be careful what we wish for; or, at least, understand the likely quid pro quo. But don’t let this counsel of pusillanimity deter the brave.

 

[fhansen]

(Before I begin, I really don’t know if I put this in the correct forum, but it seemed like the best to put this question, so please bear with me.)

I’ve been looking up on mysticism lately, and as I was doing my research, I was a bit confused by some of the experiences that the mystics had (such as locutions, visions, etc.) because they seem to be similar to delusions and hallucinations (as per my basic college-level psych class) – not that I’m denying these gifts of the Holy Spirit exist but that they can be very similar to psychotic symptoms. (Actually, I think that even the gift of the discernment of spirits – the intuitive, mystical, untrained kind, mind you – may be in a similar situation here.)

However, since I have a priest-friend (who I will not name for privacy reasons) who has some of these things (and he’s mentally stable and coherent as far as I can tell), I just want to know if there is some guide to figuring out where the mysticism ends and the delusion begins.

Thanks for your help!

P.S. If there’s anybody who’s going to go into a tangent about how every mystical experience is an illusion, please don’t do so. This made under the assumption that mystical experiences can exist without psychosis.

Your college level psych class has nothing to compare them to-so any attempt is just speculative. There is nothing comparable in everyday human experience. The knowledge that one is being communicated to by a superior ‘other’ is absolute and that the knowledge or vision, etc, given is not generated from ones own mind is equally clear. Also, there will always be a purpose involved, ultimately to advance the kingdom of God in some way, large or small.

Even at that, the mystics, being people who already possessed a great deal of personal integrity and humility as a rule, would question the experiences at times just to be sure they weren’t somehow self-induced or demonic. They knew better, though-the experiences are just so very profound.

 

[Bix]

It seems that mystical experiences tend to mean that the person concerned is in for some very heavy trials even if - as most people tend to - he/she thinks they’ve already suffered more than enough already.

Can you please expand on this?

 

[SophiaLector]

If you read the writings of St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila, they are both very careful to rule out depression, psychoses (yes, there was a recognition of psychological ailment in the 16th century) and physical illness as factors before a mystical or spiritual phenomenon could be admitted. The Church is – and has always been – very careful and scrupulous about vetting mystics. In the case of the two mentioned, they were first both tried severely, persecuted and denounced (St John of the Cross was imprisoned) before their gifts were validated and allowed. They are both now Doctors of the Church. Demonic posession or the influence of the devil can ape the gifts of the Spirit in an alarming way so the Church is always careful. And rightly so! These things are not something to be taken lightly.

That said, one need only look at the life and integrity of a person to help validate proported mystical phenomemenon. These kinds of gifts are not generally given to those who live in separation from the Church. …I will echo what others have said, though – these gifts should be a clarian call to the one who receives them that they will be responsible for far greater trials and a heavier load than many others. The phenomenon can sometimes be an incentive to keep going on the road of toil and hardship towards transforming union – the ultimate goal of contemplative prayer.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(Before I begin, I really don’t know if I put this in the correct forum, but it seemed like the best to put this question, so please bear with me.)

I’ve been looking up on mysticism lately, and as I was doing my research, I was a bit confused by some of the experiences that the mystics had (such as locutions, visions, etc.) because they seem to be similar to delusions and hallucinations (as per my basic college-level psych class) – not that I’m denying these gifts of the Holy Spirit exist but that they can be very similar to psychotic symptoms. (Actually, I think that even the gift of the discernment of spirits – the intuitive, mystical, untrained kind, mind you – may be in a similar situation here.)

However, since I have a priest-friend (who I will not name for privacy reasons) who has some of these things (and he’s mentally stable and coherent as far as I can tell), I just want to know if there is some guide to figuring out where the mysticism ends and the delusion begins.

Thanks for your help!

P.S. If there’s anybody who’s going to go into a tangent about how every mystical experience is an illusion, please don’t do so. This made under the assumption that mystical experiences can exist without psychosis.

I’ve had 11 years of psychosis, which the Lord has healed as the world cannot. The world can control, but not fix. Turns out many of the things that happened to me, the delusions and all, eventually worked together in the spirit of “Dark Night of the Soul” type purgation, and now that I have been delivered from all of that, I can see it all played a role. Even the really stupid, unexplainable things all make sense now.

I think mental illness in most cases – and I’m talking about “software” problems like most of us have to some degree (when it gets bad enough they lock you up and often stick labels on you that btw are statistically and not deterministically arrived at) and not “hardware” problems like dementia, stroke, or whatever – is simply the outward manifestation of the process of a mind trying to digest information that doesn’t compute or is particularly troubling, or whatever. I can clearly identify the major contributors to my own severe psychosis (by which I have been “disabled” since 6/8/2001) and I promise you, it was NOT some vague “chemical imbalance.”

Yeah. Chemical imbalance is what you get when you’re frantic from trying to deal with unreasonable people and ridiculous situations.

Mystical feeling for me, now that the psychosis is fixed, have changed. Looking back at it, I see the role it all played so I can choose to say that all that bizarre stuff I did (and luckily only got locked up once for) and the delusions, the time I saw the crucifix in church change into a serpent, all of it – have served a purpose in getting me to the point I am now. So in a way, I could say that these experiences, which all played a role, were in fact mystical. No psychiatrist can honestly state whether a person has, for example, “bipolar disorder” or not. The state of the art only uses the labels as guesses as to what types of medicine might help the symptoms. And note that the medicine does not fix the illness, but it only controls the symptoms – like when I’m manic the doc gives me tranquilizers so I can sleep, and sometimes antipsychotics to mellow out my thoughts.

Now, though, the “mystical” feelings I know I’m experiencing, manifest themselves in the most subtle ways. A little twitch of the muscle here, a halting to movement of my head when in someone else’s presence there. It’s amazing. It’s like my body language is correcting itself as I go, and I’m experiencing it but not driving it. It’s crazy. Somehow my presence no longer intimidates other people like it used to. Both men and women stand closer to me in discussions than before. Yesterday I was pumping gas and some woman walked up to me at the pump and talked for maybe one minute and she offered to buy me breakfast. I wasn’t hungry, but I let her buy me a drink. Turns our she paid for it in FOOD STAMPS, gave me a big hug, and I’ll never see her again probably. Her name is Nichole, and I’d guess she, like me, is in her 50’s. She was looking at me from across the parking lot, and I gave a small friendly wave and here I was, filling my dad’s Cadillac with premium fuel, and she buys me a drink with food stamps. Weird stuff has been happening to me like this for the last couple weeks, and is getting more so every day.

Oh gosh I hope I’m not straying topic too much.

I’ll tell you one thing, though, once I “crossed over” a certain mystical line, I knew the sorts of blessings to come, but never any idea what it would be like until now I’m finding out. My psychiatrist doesn’t even ask how I’m doing any more – that’'s been going on for over two months now. We just have a conversation about religion, politics, family, music, comedy, whatever, and we even exchange music and comedy CD’s. He doesn’t have to ask; he knows I’m doing well and getting better each visit.

You see, when I’m posting I don’t know most of what I’m going to write until I see it on the screen. It seems like instead of trying to push off the past like I spent my first 53 years doing, now the future is “pulling me” into the next action or thought or words to speak. I talk to people in any situation, don’t care, and there is no fear, no misunderstanding, and words come out my mouth that amaze me because half the time I didn’t know I was going to say it, and then once I said it I think, "wow, that was a good thing to say … as if I’m hearing it for the first time just like the other parties in the discussion.

Wait a minute. What was the topic of this thread? (sorry if I went on too long )

Alan

 

[ParvaDei]

I’ve had 11 years of psychosis, which the Lord has healed as the world cannot. The world can control, but not fix. Turns out many of the things that happened to me, the delusions and all, eventually worked together in the spirit of “Dark Night of the Soul” type purgation, and now that I have been delivered from all of that, I can see it all played a role. Even the really stupid, unexplainable things all make sense now.

I think mental illness in most cases – and I’m talking about “software” problems like most of us have to some degree (when it gets bad enough they lock you up and often stick labels on you that btw are statistically and not deterministically arrived at) and not “hardware” problems like dementia, stroke, or whatever – is simply the outward manifestation of the process of a mind trying to digest information that doesn’t compute or is particularly troubling, or whatever. I can clearly identify the major contributors to my own severe psychosis (by which I have been “disabled” since 6/8/2001) and I promise you, it was NOT some vague “chemical imbalance.”

Yeah. Chemical imbalance is what you get when you’re frantic from trying to deal with unreasonable people and ridiculous situations.

Mystical feeling for me, now that the psychosis is fixed, have changed. Looking back at it, I see the role it all played so I can choose to say that all that bizarre stuff I did (and luckily only got locked up once for) and the delusions, the time I saw the crucifix in church change into a serpent, all of it – have served a purpose in getting me to the point I am now. So in a way, I could say that these experiences, which all played a role, were in fact mystical. No psychiatrist can honestly state whether a person has, for example, “bipolar disorder” or not. The state of the art only uses the labels as guesses as to what types of medicine might help the symptoms. And note that the medicine does not fix the illness, but it only controls the symptoms – like when I’m manic the doc gives me tranquilizers so I can sleep, and sometimes antipsychotics to mellow out my thoughts.

Now, though, the “mystical” feelings I know I’m experiencing, manifest themselves in the most subtle ways. A little twitch of the muscle here, a halting to movement of my head when in someone else’s presence there. It’s amazing. It’s like my body language is correcting itself as I go, and I’m experiencing it but not driving it. It’s crazy. Somehow my presence no longer intimidates other people like it used to. Both men and women stand closer to me in discussions than before. Yesterday I was pumping gas and some woman walked up to me at the pump and talked for maybe one minute and she offered to buy me breakfast. I wasn’t hungry, but I let her buy me a drink. Turns our she paid for it in FOOD STAMPS, gave me a big hug, and I’ll never see her again probably. Her name is Nichole, and I’d guess she, like me, is in her 50’s. She was looking at me from across the parking lot, and I gave a small friendly wave and here I was, filling my dad’s Cadillac with premium fuel, and she buys me a drink with food stamps. Weird stuff has been happening to me like this for the last couple weeks, and is getting more so every day.

Oh gosh I hope I’m not straying topic too much.

I’ll tell you one thing, though, once I “crossed over” a certain mystical line, I knew the sorts of blessings to come, but never any idea what it would be like until now I’m finding out. My psychiatrist doesn’t even ask how I’m doing any more – that’'s been going on for over two months now. We just have a conversation about religion, politics, family, music, comedy, whatever, and we even exchange music and comedy CD’s. He doesn’t have to ask; he knows I’m doing well and getting better each visit.

You see, when I’m posting I don’t know most of what I’m going to write until I see it on the screen. It seems like instead of trying to push off the past like I spent my first 53 years doing, now the future is “pulling me” into the next action or thought or words to speak. I talk to people in any situation, don’t care, and there is no fear, no misunderstanding, and words come out my mouth that amaze me because half the time I didn’t know I was going to say it, and then once I said it I think, "wow, that was a good thing to say … as if I’m hearing it for the first time just like the other parties in the discussion.

Wait a minute. What was the topic of this thread? (sorry if I went on too long )

Alan

Hello, Alan! Nice to see you at the discussion thread!

Anyway, I was originally asking how to tell the difference between true discernment of spirits and symptoms of mental psychosis (like hallucinations, delusions, etc.).

For example, there’s the story where (if I remember correctly) St. Jean Vianney & his house are being terrorized by the presence of demons which the priest could sense. However, when the neighbor came with his gun to see what was going on (after the demons had caused loud noises to ring throughout the town), the neighbor couldn’t see/sense the spiritual battle, but St. Jean Vianney could.

Technically, however, wouldn’t that episode of spiritual discernment qualify as a hallucination if it weren’t in a religious context because in this case, the Curé of Ars is seeing things that no one else can see? (Or what about the similar case of Padre Pio, who could see his guardian angel even though his parents couldn’t?)

That’s why I’m asking: how can one tell the difference between a hallucination/delusion/whatever and true discernment of spirits (if it’s even possible)?

Now, if your personal experience can help answer the question, that’s fine with me as long as we stick to the rules of the Spirituality forum!

 

[ParvaDei]

If you read the writings of St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila, they are both very careful to rule out depression, psychoses (yes, there was a recognition of psychological ailment in the 16th century) and physical illness as factors before a mystical or spiritual phenomenon could be admitted. The Church is – and has always been – very careful and scrupulous about vetting mystics. In the case of the two mentioned, they were first both tried severely, persecuted and denounced (St John of the Cross was imprisoned) before their gifts were validated and allowed. They are both now Doctors of the Church. Demonic posession or the influence of the devil can ape the gifts of the Spirit in an alarming way so the Church is always careful. And rightly so! These things are not something to be taken lightly.

That said, one need only look at the life and integrity of a person to help validate proported mystical phenomemenon. These kinds of gifts are not generally given to those who live in separation from the Church. …I will echo what others have said, though – these gifts should be a clarian call to the one who receives them that they will be responsible for far greater trials and a heavier load than many others. The phenomenon can sometimes be an incentive to keep going on the road of toil and hardship towards transforming union – the ultimate goal of contemplative prayer.

Hm . . . yes, I see what you mean there – if you happen to be truly spiritually sensitive, it means that you are risking exposure to God (in a good way) and the Devil (in a bad way). Plus, people can make up random stuff and seem like they’re visionaries when they’re not, which is why the Church is always careful about these things.

However, my friend (that I mentioned as an example in the OP) is one of the most mentally stable people I’ve met, he’s not the type to lie about major stuff like this, and he’s uber-orthodox (in a good way! ). He’s actually kind of a cool guy if you get to know him very well.

Anyway, I think that’s helping with the question a little bit. But again, is there a differential diagnosis between a sensory hallucination and a true spiritual experience? Or is it just some gut feeling, and we have to take a leap of faith? I completely understand that a huge leap of faith might be needed, but at the same time, you don’t want to follow the “Voice of God” and then realizing that you’re following the Devil .

 

[fhansen]

Anyway, I think that’s helping with the question a little bit. But again, is there a differential diagnosis between a sensory hallucination and a true spiritual experience? Or is it just some gut feeling, and we have to take a leap of faith? I completely understand that a huge leap of faith might be needed, but at the same time, you don’t want to follow the “Voice of God” and then realizing that you’re following the Devil .

Let me make a suggestion. Hallucinatory experiences, from the way they’ve been described to me, are all over the board: fanciful, wild, seemingly purposeless, not orderly. Mystical experiences, OTOH, are reported to be controlled, orderly, purposeful-orchestrated. And I’d ask, how do we know that any experience we have, obtained via the five senses, is real or not? Every single experience we have is experienced subjectively; we only interpret it to be an objective experience.

So if God, the creator of everything including our very beings, wanted to bypass the senses and give experiences: locutions, visions, knowledge,* directly*, without benefit of or need for the senses, how is that really any different than the communication you receive and internalize now as you read this post? In either case you’d be aware of another, separate, being conveying thoughts, concepts, etc to you, thoughts and concepts that didn’t originate in or from your own mind. If there is a God, then communicating in such a way should pose no problem for Him, I’d think. And the people who claim to have received such communication assert this very thing- that they’ve experienced said communications as received from an ineffably awesome “Other”, sensed to be infinitely superior and yet somehow totally familiar.

When Edith Stein, an educated, brilliant Jewish convert to Catholicism who died in an Auschwitz gas chamber, and who was later canonized by the Church, finished reading St Teresa of Avila’s “The Interior Castle”, she placed the book down and stated simply, “This is the truth.”

How did she discern this? How do we discern truth in scripture or from our Church? She simply recognized and acknowledged the voice of truth and integrity-she knew it when she heard it.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

That’s why I’m asking: how can one tell the difference between a hallucination/delusion/whatever and true discernment of spirits (if it’s even possible)?

Now, if your personal experience can help answer the question, that’s fine with me as long as we stick to the rules of the Spirituality forum!

First, there is no objective way for a person to determine whether something is a hallucination v. real, so let’s start by getting that out on the table. Sometimes it’s obvious, often it’s not. Sometimes I would talk about a dream I had only to find out I really did it but didn’t know it because my consciousness had changed state.

In retrospect, I see all of my hallucinations and delusions working in concert for the Greater Good in me, so I bundle them right up there with mystical experiences. The difference is, once the “strong man” of my ego AND psychosis are gone, the Spirit can be much more gentle and less difficult.

You can decide for yourself whether or not you believe 1.) that the Holy Spirit has things under control, and 2.) that God’s will be done on earth. If you believe those two things, then you can’t honestly renounce any experience whatsoever, mystical, hallucinatory, or ordinary, as being outside of God’s domain.

And once you cross the line and find yourself in the kingdom that Jesus described (btw it’s completely erroneous to think it can only happen after death – the doctors of the Church even say so and it matches my experience) then everything is obviously mystical and life becomes so much easier. You will know if and when that happens, ALL things work together for the good of those who believe.

ALL means ALL. Not just those experiences we think are wholesome and orderly. Life is messy, and God knows it and knows how to prepare you for it. Once you’re renewed in spirit it becomes easy but before that, watch out! You might be compelled to do some of the VERY difficult things like what I had to do. Luckily, it’s not one-size-fits-all.

Rom 8:28
We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

If you fully understand even this verse alone, and I mean trust it completely, then you are ripe for the harvest.

Alan

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

If I were you I would read “Fire Within” by Fr. Thomas Dubay. In it he covers the writings of Theresa of Jesus and St. John of the Cross and he has a chapter dealing specifically with locutions and visions. St Theresa especially has some real, down-to-earth advice on both locutions and visions and what one ought to do if they believe they have received them.

 

[Alfonsus]

(Before I begin, I really don’t know if I put this in the correct forum, but it seemed like the best to put this question, so please bear with me.)

I’ve been looking up on mysticism lately, and as I was doing my research, I was a bit confused by some of the experiences that the mystics had (such as locutions, visions, etc.) because they seem to be similar to delusions and hallucinations (as per my basic college-level psych class) – not that I’m denying these gifts of the Holy Spirit exist but that they can be very similar to psychotic symptoms. (Actually, I think that even the gift of the discernment of spirits – the intuitive, mystical, untrained kind, mind you – may be in a similar situation here.)

However, since I have a priest-friend (who I will not name for privacy reasons) who has some of these things (and he’s mentally stable and coherent as far as I can tell), I just want to know if there is some guide to figuring out where the mysticism ends and the delusion begins.

Thanks for your help!

P.S. If there’s anybody who’s going to go into a tangent about how every mystical experience is an illusion, please don’t do so. This made under the assumption that mystical experiences can exist without psychosis.

Of couse, and if you read their biography, the first person that think they are delusional is themself.

But, to be brief, those happenings are not what mysticism is. They sometimes happen, but not the core of it. In fact, saints like Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross stressed the importance of ignoring them.
If it came from the devil, you are safe because you ignore them.
If it came from yourself, you are safe because you ignore them.
If it came from God, you lose nothing, for it is pleasing to God for you to stick to embrace and love God and only Him alone. Otherwise you make the experience an idol and you lose sight of your true aim.
If it wants you to do something, you defer it to authority, and obey them.

But the core of mysticism, basically speaking, is to love God, him and only him. This is what you need to aspire, again and again.
St. John of the Cross said it is like climbing the mount of Carmel. Your destination, aspiration is the summit, even if it is arid, not any other place, even if it beautiful and good.
St. Teresa of Avila said, taking imagery of a castle, your aspiration should be always directed at the King’s chamber, meeting him there and leaving aside any other chambers behind, however great it is.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

If I were you I would read “Fire Within” by Fr. Thomas Dubay. In it he covers the writings of Theresa of Jesus and St. John of the Cross and he has a chapter dealing specifically with locutions and visions. St Theresa especially has some real, down-to-earth advice on both locutions and visions and what one ought to do if they believe they have received them.

Thanks for the suggestion. It wasn’t at my library, so I put it in my Amazon shopping cart!

Alan