Makeup and vanity?

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Sarabande is always like that - she always has a way of addressing a very divisive topic with grace. I’ve always admired that about her - it is truly something I aspire to. 🙂

~Liza
I don’t think you should discount yourself, either. You are gracious when warranted and straight forward when that is needed, too. I like both styles–and the content.
 
Sarabande is always like that - she always has a way of addressing a very divisive topic with grace. I’ve always admired that about her - it is truly something I aspire to. 🙂

~Liza
😊

Liza - You are too nice!!! I’ve certainly had my share of not dealing with things as gracefully and kindly as I should have, or have just completely stuck my foot in my mouth without meaning to. hahaha!

I totally agree with gabriel22a - I’ve always admired your way with things on here as well.
 
I never accused you of saying that. I didn’t accuse you of anything. Your post explained why you don’t wear make-up. It was your other post that accused me of being un-Christian when you read my post out of context. I apologized that you were offended by what you perceived to be name-calling. I don’t want this to disintegrate further.

As for being defensive, I believe it is a natural reaction to being judged for a morally neutral act.
No problem, all is well. 🙂 I once got slapped with a warning from the mods and that was quite a shock. It was very upsetting to me. What I said was not bad and was taken the wrong way by the mods. However, after several hours of reflection and prayer I started understanding how it was that the mods took it the way they did and began to see it from their point of view. I chalked it up to a teaching moment and moved on. I made it a point to pay more attention to what I wrote.

I find the defense interesting because this is the debate section of the forum and one of the major rules of debate is don’t get upset. I know that can be hard. For the record I don’t agree with Budge2’s argument much of it doesn’t stand up to logic. Although she does have an interesting pov.

I do agree with LilyM about having the right products and learning how to put makeup on. When dd comes of age I intend to do what my mom did with me and take her to a professional so she can learn what colors are good on her and how to properly apply makeup. 👍
 
What I find so funny about all this is that those women who wear make up properly are never told their look is over the top or vain or attract attention for the wrong reasons. The purpose of good make up is to draw attention to the person not to the make up.

I will say that many a woman who doesn’t wear make up does draw attention to the fact because they look tired, or ill, or worse, like they don’t care about themselves. And that is off-putting to others, whether it ought to be or not. I’ve seen some mighty dowdy women at church, for instance. I don’t know their mind set or intentions, but they sure aren’t attracting any good attention, that’s for sure.

We wear make up for the same reasons we pick out clothes that compliment our figures (modestly, of course), jewelry that suits our outfits, and hair styles that are right for our look and age. It’s not vanity, it’s good grooming, plain and simple.
 
You are making up quite an interesting theology about make-up. You would be welcome in some protestant holiness churches in the South, or we have a cult in our area that believes this, too. Please make a good reference from the Church that specifically calls wearing make-up a venial sin.

If this continues, I’m going to have to formulate my own theology that, based on animal videos, painting classes and divine revelations of my own, not wearing make-up is a venial sin.
Not wearing make up is honest. I am honest about my face and my looks. Make up is a lie, “I am making it up”. If I am wearing make up every day then I may be imitating Eve rather than Mary and trying to tempt a man or men in general.

Children of the devil
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I shouldn’t be lying on my face on a daily basis. If I wear make up it should be obvious and only as part of fancy dress or a play in which everybody knows that I am playing a part. Not wearing make up is more like Mary who does not try to incite lust in other people. Make up is still venial sin but could lead to more unfaithful relationships if I’m not already in one. If you didn’t have an informed conscience before then you are not fully guilty but the Church’s teaching will be changed in the future.
 
What I find so funny about all this is that those women who wear make up properly are never told their look is over the top or vain or attract attention for the wrong reasons. The purpose of good make up is to draw attention to the person not to the make up.

I will say that many a woman who doesn’t wear make up does draw attention to the fact because they look tired, or ill, or worse, like they don’t care about themselves. And that is off-putting to others, whether it ought to be or not. I’ve seen some mighty dowdy women at church, for instance. I don’t know their mind set or intentions, but they sure aren’t attracting any good attention, that’s for sure.

We wear make up for the same reasons we pick out clothes that compliment our figures (modestly, of course), jewelry that suits our outfits, and hair styles that are right for our look and age. It’s not vanity, it’s good grooming, plain and simple.
Then I would so they might suffer from depression and then again they simply may not care what anyone thinks about how they look. I know a number of women who don’t wear makeup and they all look clean basically well presented. And I have seen women who do wear makeup that do not look good. To me makeup falls under the same category as nail polish and nail polish is not necessary to your over all look. Makeup and nail polish are icing on the cake and not all cakes require icing. Cheesecake anyone? 😉

Of course as usual I had to go and look up the history of makeup. Here are the two sources I found. 🙂

Make-up History Cosmetics before 1950

Brief History of Beauty and Hygiene Products
 
Not wearing make up is honest. I am honest about my face and my looks. Make up is a lie, “I am making it up”. If I am wearing make up every day then I may be imitating Eve rather than Mary and trying to tempt a man or men in general.

Children of the devil
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I shouldn’t be lying on my face on a daily basis. If I wear make up it should be obvious and only as part of fancy dress or a play in which everybody knows that I am playing a part. Not wearing make up is more like Mary who does not try to incite lust in other people. Make up is still venial sin but could lead to more unfaithful relationships if I’m not already in one. If you didn’t have an informed conscience before then you are not fully guilty but the Church’s teaching will be changed in the future.
And exactly how do you know that? Where’s your proof? Make-up has been around for thousands of years and to my knowledge the Church hasn’t said anything yet. It isn’t in the CCC, for example.
 
Not wearing make up is honest. I am honest about my face and my looks. Make up is a lie, “I am making it up”. If I am wearing make up every day then I may be imitating Eve rather than Mary and trying to tempt a man or men in general.

Children of the devil
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I shouldn’t be lying on my face on a daily basis. If I wear make up it should be obvious and only as part of fancy dress or a play in which everybody knows that I am playing a part. Not wearing make up is more like Mary who does not try to incite lust in other people. Make up is still venial sin but could lead to more unfaithful relationships if I’m not already in one. If you didn’t have an informed conscience before then you are not fully guilty but the Church’s teaching will be changed in the future.
I’m afraid you’re being a little less than honest on this forum. You have been asked to cite a Church teaching that directly supports your assertion that make-up is a venial sin. Instead, you equate make-up with lying and quote Scripture. But then you prophesy that the Church’s teaching will be changed in the future, with a dire warning that we may not be fully guilty if we don’t have an informed conscience.

Make-up and unfaithful relationships? I am confused.
 
Not wearing make up is honest. I am honest about my face and my looks. Make up is a lie, “I am making it up”. If **I **am wearing make up every day then **I **may be imitating Eve rather than Mary and trying to tempt a man or men in general.
(Bold mine) Perhaps you, yourself, “may be imitating Eve rather than Mary and trying to tempt a man or men in general”. This may be something you struggle with and if it is, then I think that is probably wise for you, on a personal level, to do whatever you can to avoid that. That may mean not wearing makeup for you, especially since you have confidence in your natural beauty, at least from what you wrote in post #47.
My face is white tinged with pink a bit like an alstromeria flower. I can’t just colour my face in. My face is subtle. It has variations in hues and texture which I cannot imitate.
From what you elegantly described, it sounds like you have a beautiful complexion and you are very fortunate that God has gifted you with that beauty and that you are very aware of this gift. But I believe to make the same assumption of all other women may be putting too much of what you think of yourself onto others.

In the same post, you also mention that makeup takes away from your beauty:
Make up makes me look gaudy and takes away some of my face’s natural beauty. When I wear it, parts of my face are not enriched by sunlight or air. Make up takes away my natural colour and makes my face feel greasy or dry.
How you worded the above appears that you also do not believe in wearing makeup because it makes you look not as beautiful as you believe yourself to be. You also mention that it is “the opposite of beauty treatment”. So, it would make sense for you not to wear makeup because it would make you look less attractive. Actually, one could say that it may be a bit vain, then, for one who has that outlook to not wear makeup and actually would be a better sign of humility to wear the makeup because it will make them feel less attractive. I will stress that I am not saying that of you as I do not know you, but I can see how the above quotes could very easily be construed in that fashion.
I shouldn’t be lying on my face on a daily basis. **If I wear make up it should be obvious and only as part of fancy dress **or a play in which everybody knows that I am playing a part.
What I don’t understand about this is that if one is so adamently against wearing make up for moral reasons, how can one justify wearing it for any reason? It’s speaking out of two sides of the mouth. If a person strongly feels that way, then in my mind she should follow through in all aspects of life so that she doesn’t paint herself as a hypocrite to herself. Also, when one enhances one’s beauty with other means such as clothing, jewelry, hairstyle and the like, it can also be misused and abused in a vain way just like makeup can be misused.

Point is, moderation is key in all things. One can easily abuse and twist anything so that it becomes sinful by one’s personal failings and weaknesses. It’s up to each individual to be aware of his/her failures and do what is necessary to prevent it. But what might be a huge sin or temptation to one may not be to another, especially with what is being discussed in this thread.
Not wearing make up is more like Mary who does not try to incite lust in other people.
There is nothing wrong for a person to feel like this on a personal level OR if a person knows another well enough to see that wearing makeup for that person or for oneself would be meant to incite lust. But to paint a broad brush on all women is assuming too much.
Make up is still venial sin but could lead to more unfaithful relationships if I’m not already in one.
It’s not the makeup, but the individual’s intent and how the makeup is applied. If a woman truly feels that she, herself, would be doing it for the wrong reasons, then I would grant that it could very much be a “venial sin”. But if a person does it for none of those reasons and if another can’t even tell the difference between her wearing makeup and not, then I can’t see how that could be construed as a sin.

Again, most women do not wear makeup for other men. They do it for themselves. In fact, most men I know don’t like makeup - especially heavily made-up women.
 
Again, most women do not wear makeup for other men. They do it for themselves. In fact, most men I know don’t like makeup - especially heavily made-up women.
When dh and I where getting married a friend (hairstylist) did the hair and makeup of my whole wedding party as a gift. When we got to the church my sil, who was one of my brides maids, made the comment that bil (her dh) was glaring at her. When I asked why, she said “because I’m wearing make-up”. He did not like her in make-up. 😃 She is one of the ladies I know who has never really worn make-up. Before or after her marriage. There really are a lot of men out there that do not like their ladies in make-up.
 
.I wake up every morning and feel like I NEED to wear mascara for the day or else I will look completely ugly and no one will pay any attention to me, or respect any of my ideas.
Has it been discussed that she feels like she needs to look a certain way to be taken seriously? And, from a male perspective, this seems like a relatively serious self esteem issue.
 
Although the Church does not specifically make a statement about wearing makeup, it does address the issue by virtue of its teachings on modesty and purity. Makeup appeals to a woman’s ingrained natural desire to draw undue attention to herself, specifically, the primordial yearning to be desired by men. This is the curse of Eve in which all women share. The Church calls women to keep their human nature subject to their will, rather than their will subject to their human nature.
Lobster–not all women want ‘undue attention from men.’
Quite correct.
It is not an innate ‘desire’ in women to wear makeup to lure men over.
Oh, but it is. Not to wear makeup necessarily, but the want to be appealing and alluring. It is a part of basic biological human nature.
*
I wear makeup…I am not interested in luring men over to me. I’m happily married, and I find your post offensive.
That is because you are striving to abide by the Church’s calling for women to keep their human nature subject to their will. We are not at the mercy of our bodies.
 
Or attention from men at all, particularly. When I wear makeup, it’s for the same reasons that I wear flattering clothes (not tight or skimpy but not potato sacks either) or have my hair clean and well-styled or wear a little bit of jewellery (nothing flashy).
Same here.
 
Amen! My husband loves me with or without makeup. I wear makeup for me–it makes me feel well-groomed. And I don’t know where it came from that part of the curse of Eve was the desire to lure men.
It is quite specifically, the sin of Adam and Eve which brought concupiscence into the world. Before the fall, the bodies of man were completely subject to man’s will. That was lost with the fall. Now men and women struggle with concupiscence. That is what the Church teaches. That is where it came from.
This kind of stuff is what makes people stay FAR AWAY from the Church. I have a hard time judging them.
There are lots of reasons why people stay away from the Church. All of the reasons have refusal to accept the Truth in common.
 
Good point–actually in the animal world, it seems to be the male of the species who are more beautiful.
Nope, only in the fowl kingdom. In other species, the female is the more smooth, sleek, and appealing animal.
But this could lend itself to another verse in the B. of Budgie–female animals do not feel the need to enhance their beauty.
Animals are not cursed with concupiscence due to the fall of Eve.
Why should we?
We shouldn’t
Do we think we are better than animals?
Yes.
 
Quite true. Male attention is easy.
This is only true to the extent that a woman is willing to settle for the first and easiest seducible person. That is what animals do. As for being able to get the attention of any male, particularly those who follow the teachings of the Church , it is utterly false.
 
Has it been discussed that she feels like she needs to look a certain way to be taken seriously? And, from a male perspective, this seems like a relatively serious self esteem issue.
Speaking of the op, I do agree and it does need to be addressed. No woman should like she HAS to wear make-up any more than she feels like she CAN NOT wear make-up. I remember one poster mentioning that the op might want to talk to a counselor about this.
 
It’s not the makeup, but the individual’s intent and how the makeup is applied. If a woman truly feels that she, herself, would be doing it for the wrong reasons, then I would grant that it could very much be a “venial sin”. But if a person does it for none of those reasons and if another can’t even tell the difference between her wearing makeup and not, then I can’t see how that could be construed as a sin.
You are correct, in and of itself, makeup is not a sin, since objects are not sins. The act of putting on and wearing makeup is where the sin lies, depending on, as you say the intent of the wearer. If done in compliment of the innate bodily desire to seduce, attract and allure, it is sinful.
 
This is only true to the extent that a woman is willing to settle for the first and easiest seducible person. That is what animals do. As for being able to get the attention of any male, particularly those who follow the teachings of the Church , it is utterly false.
But the statement was that women who wear make-up do it to attract men. And these women were under the curse of Eve. Would a woman like this be particular about a man who follows the teachings of the Church? Is this logical?
 
It is quite specifically, the sin of Adam and Eve which brought concupiscence into the world. Before the fall, the bodies of man were completely subject to man’s will. That was lost with the fall. Now men and women struggle with concupiscence. That is what the Church teaches. That is where it came from.

There are lots of reasons why people stay away from the Church. All of the reasons have refusal to accept the Truth in common.
No. This does not address the issue of the curse of Eve. This talks about the fall of man. Yes, a tendency toward sin. But the curse of Eve being the desire to lure men? You’ll have to do better than that. I know part of the curse was that “your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you.” Realizing they were naked–still nothing to do with the curse of Eve. I would like to see more specific Church teachings on the curse of Eve.

Some people can’t come close enough to the Church to find Truth because they are offended by the lack of charity (love).
 
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