Making children to kneel down as punishment!

[Ransri]

When is it OKAY to make children KNEEL DOWN as punishment?
Does it work?
Should it be confined to DEVELOPING countries like India and Sri lanka??
Can the members including reverend priests of this forum give your valuable opinions and clarifications on this issue kindly?

 

[pensmama87]

I don’t understand how it works. Can you clarify?

I have temporarily isolated my children (time-out or cooldowns in a corner, on a step, or in a separate room) as needed, but I’ve never required them to stay in a particular physical position. Kneeling over time could be very, very painful, especially depending on the floor. It’s also a position I associate with prayer, and I don’t want them to think of prayer as punishment!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

In general I think it’s a bad idea to associate any devotional practice, whether it is kneeling, confession, going to Mass, etc. with punishment for a child. Children and even young teens don’t understand the penitential aspect fully yet and they mostly behave because they fear punishment. You don’t want them associating fear with acts that we normally do out of love for Our Lord. When they are truly contrite and sorry and expressing it, is the time to suggest that they kneel down and tell God they are sorry and ask for his love and mercy, and ideally the parent will kneel down and pray with them so it’s a loving and bonding experience.

 

[pianistclare]

It’s never ok.
Don’t do it. Particularly because kneeling is for prayer, ad you don’t want to associate punishment with prayer.

 

[reggieM]

When is it OKAY to make children KNEEL DOWN as punishment?
Does it work?
Should it be confined to DEVELOPING countries like India and Sri lanka??
Can the members including reverend priests of this forum give your valuable opinions and clarifications on this issue kindly?

It’s a difficult question.
First, I could agree with the previous post that we don’t want to make devotional practices seem like something that is painful and unwanted for the child.
However, I do see the rightness of kneeling in many ways - because it is, in fact, a penance.
Now, perhaps there could be instruction given with the kneeling. Instead of the child just kneeling and thinking nothing - they could be required to say some prayers that they are sorry for what they did.
To me, that seems reasonable and good. The child did something wrong. To make up for it, kneeling with some prayers is a penance. But this means really praying and saying sorry. It’s difficult if the child is heated up or excited - but the physical punishment is what helps here.
If that can be done in a positive way, that would be one of the best lessons the child would learn and could follow all the way through life. Honestly, as an adult I do and have done this many times (and not just in confession).
We need to have some bodily penance.

Regarding this for developing countries - just my opinion - in my experience Catholics in India, Sri Lanka, Africa and other developing nations that I’ve encountered are far advanced spiritually than those I encounter in developing countries, and I mean no disrespect or insult to anyone with that.

For me, it’s the time-honored practices of discipline, simplicity, reverence to parents, obedience and other virtues that are too easily lost in developing countries and we see many tragic results from that as a consequence.

So, I would warn against the pressures you will receive from people who will claim you are not being modern enough in your views.

Yes, there may be a chance to modify practices - like this one (adding prayer perhaps), but I would advise not to remove traditional practices entirely. Slight adjustments only. If there is some leniency given in some ways, balance it with strictness in another. Don’t just loosen up rules. So many parents do that for fear of criticism and the children end up loosing control and discipline.

So, these are thoughts from a layman with no real expertise but I’ve seen enough good and bad in my own family and of others to, I hope, offer something useful.

 

[pianistclare]

When is it OKAY to make children KNEEL DOWN as punishment?
Does it work?
Should it be confined to DEVELOPING countries like India and Sri lanka??
Can the members including reverend priests of this forum give your valuable opinions and clarifications on this issue kindly?

I don’t think place has anything to do with it.
If you believe India is a “developing” country…(and I know many Physicians who would find that pretty insulting) then develop already. Don’t abandon proper respect for parental authority, and don’t dress it up as “cultural discipline”.
It’s cruel, just like spanking, and it might work. **ONCE. ** After that, it’s useless.
As a practice? no bueno. :nope:

 

[Theo520]

When is it OKAY to make children KNEEL DOWN as punishment?
Does it work?
Should it be confined to DEVELOPING countries like India and Sri lanka??
Can the members including reverend priests of this forum give your valuable opinions and clarifications on this issue kindly?

Doesn’t punishment of children always include a negative consequence, something they don’t see as a reward?

We’ve largely banned corporal punishment, not because it didn’t work when applied judiciously in moderation, but because some used it with too much vigor and emotion, causing serious harm to the child.

I wouldn’t use kneeling but don’t see how it’s much different than sending a child to sit in the corner.

How well any punishment works depends upon context and appropriate implementation.

 

[reggieM]

When is it OKAY to make children KNEEL DOWN as punishment?
Does it work?
Should it be confined to DEVELOPING countries like India and Sri lanka??
Can the members including reverend priests of this forum give your valuable opinions and clarifications on this issue kindly?

Clearly, you’re going to get a range of conflicting and contradictory opinions here.
Your parish priest and local leaders will be the best source for answers on this.
Everybody on CAF has their opinion - right or wrong. If it’s a question of moral teaching we refer to the magisterium.
Other than that, as with this question, you’re not going to get definitive or consistent answers.
For myself, I see nothing wrong with the punishment as you stated it.
Others will think it is very bad, cruel, etc.
I don’t know how you would sort that out - except for the above.
In my experience, parents who ask these sorts of questions are getting pressure from the “modern parents” or even other kids who ridicule them for disciplining children.
That may be your situation. In my view, hold your guns against them.
We’ve got a whole generation of spoiled brats running loose in America as a result of modern parenting, so there’s nothing to envy here and no reason to feel pressured.

 

[TK421]

We’ve got a whole generation of spoiled brats running loose in America as a result of modern parenting, so there’s nothing to envy here and no reason to feel pressured.

This isn’t necessarily false, but it’s an ad hominin that avoids the question. Permissive parenting is very toxic in the development of a person, but corporal punishment - or rather a highly authoritarian form of parenting where the parent is a sort of overlord figure - was a generation that produced the most violent wars in the 5,000 odd years of post-tribal human civilization. Was this because of spanking? Obviously nobody can say that. Life is complex. But this is certain: children are given adults as models on how to solve problems (or to not solve problems). St Gianna Molla and her husband never spanked their children, and they grew up to be highly virtuous, productive human beings, not spoiled brats.

So, at the bare minimum, corporal punishment is unnecessary in the proper formation of the conscious.

 

[reggieM]

This isn’t necessarily false, but it’s an ad hominin that avoids the question. Permissive parenting is very toxic in the development of a person, but corporal punishment - or rather a highly authoritarian form of parenting where the parent is a sort of overlord figure - was a generation that produced the most violent wars in the 5,000 odd years of post-tribal human civilization. St Gianna Molla and her husband never spanked their children, and they grew up to be highly virtuous, productive human beings, not spoiled brats. The Holy Father was not spanked as a child; he is not a spoiled brat.

I didn’t see spanking mentioned here.
Do you accept that there is a moral value in corporal, penitential practices? Like kneeling or fasting? Or would you blame the cruelty found in the world on such things?

a generation that produced the most violent wars in the 5,000 odd years

Might make a good thread starter but wrong place for this topic.
Maybe some useful questions to toss out there:

1. Those wars were more violent because there was more spanking than in previous generations?
2. Today’s wars are less violent because there is less spanking?
3. All corporal (bodily) punishment should be abolished, including in prisons?
4. Corporal penances of the saints – something evil?

Some ideas that might generate a good discussion (but not here).

 

[reggieM]

Doesn’t punishment of children always include a negative consequence, something they don’t see as a reward?

We’ve largely banned corporal punishment, not because it didn’t work when applied judiciously in moderation, but because some used it with too much vigor and emotion, causing serious harm to the child.

I wouldn’t use kneeling but don’t see how it’s much different than sending a child to sit in the corner.

How well any punishment works depends upon context and appropriate implementation.

Agreed on all points.

 

[Lea101]

My parents used to make us kneel down and stare at a painting of Jesus. They honestly thought that would make us guilty for throwing paint all over the room

We were indifferent.

But really, you don’t want your children to be conditioned to view prayer as a form of punishment.

Kneel as punishment+sad/angry over a period of times will basically lead to the child feeling sad/angry (or just uncomfortable for no reason) when he or she kneels down to pray. Subconscious, but it’s a real pain in the butt.

 

[reggieM]

If the only time a child kneels down to pray is when they’re getting punished, then it would make sense that kneeling/prayer = something bad.

But if kneeling for prayer is daily for morning and night prayer and for prayer in church, for Mass or devotions – then the good/happy kneeling outweighs the sad ones (we would hope for a normal child not getting punished that frequently).

It’s a good idea to change-up the punishments also. Don’t always do the same thing.

 

[Mary_Estelle]

It is a form of physical torture and should not be considered a ‘just punishment.’ There are so many other and positive ways to teach a child. Peace.

 

[Allegra]

I don’t get it. Kneeling is torture? Are they kneeling on hot coals or broken glass, or overnight or something? If I suggested kneeling to my kids as a punishment, they’d be and then they’d laugh at me.

 

[midori]

I’ve never heard of kneeling as a punishment. The closest I’ve heard is using seiza for punishment, like in a schoolroom setting in Japan, which I hear can be uncomfy if you don’t know how to do it correctly.

 

[Mary_Estelle]

I don’t get it. Kneeling is torture? Are they kneeling on hot coals or broken glass, or overnight or something? If I suggested kneeling to my kids as a punishment, they’d be and then they’d laugh at me.

Your an adult. You try kneeling on a hard surface for a 1/2 hour or so. Not in a Church setting or on a kneeler or as in prayer, then come back and tell me you don’t get it. Positive reinforcement, it is not. Just saying…Peace

 

[on_the_hill]

Well.

My grandmother used to tell us about kneeling as punishment. When she was in grade/elementary school, the nuns’ punishment for girls was to have them roll down the tops of their “stockings,” which were basically above-the-knee wool socks, and kneel on dried beans. As an 80-something year old woman, she could look back and laugh at how painful it was.

Of course, grandma was born in 1903. I’m sure punishments have changed since then.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well.

My grandmother used to tell us about kneeling as punishment. When she was in grade/elementary school, the nuns’ punishment for girls was to have them roll down the tops of their “stockings,” which were basically above-the-knee wool socks, and kneel on dried beans. As an 80-something year old woman, she could look back and laugh at how painful it was.

Of course, grandma was born in 1903. I’m sure punishments have changed since then.

I remember Madonna, the singer, telling some story about how her Catholic mother used to do penance by dropping some uncooked hard grains of rice on the kitchen floor and kneeling on them for a while. Ouch.

I tried doing the Fatima walk on my knees from the big church there to the chapel, when I was there last year. Unlike many of the others doing it I did not use knee pads or support sticks. I had to stop after 2/3 of the way and at that point discovered all the skin was gone from my knees although I had been wearing jeans. My knees still have scars from that.

 

[Allegra]

Your an adult. You try kneeling on a hard surface for a 1/2 hour or so. Not in a Church setting or on a kneeler or as in prayer, then come back and tell me you don’t get it. Positive reinforcement, it is not. Just saying…Peace

Well, technically speaking, no “punishment” is positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is giving someone something because they did something right. Punishment is doing something to make doing the wrong thing more uncomfortable. In my opinion, both are required for good discipline. The thing is, I spend 30 minutes kneeling on the floor all the time. I teach elementary school music lessons and we kneel to play certain instruments and do certain activities like tinickling. Sometimes legs get a little stiff, but its hardly “torture”.