Making children to kneel down as punishment!

[pianistclare]

The “negative consequence” is the displeasure and disappointment of their parents.

When we have kids who simply don’t care if their parents are displeased, disappointed in them , or frankly angry, no amount of spanking is going to help that. That ship has long since left the port.

I’ll never forget one of my daughter’s response to another mom who openly criticized me for allowing my 2 daughters to go to a certain rock concert. The idea was “how can your mother, POSSIBLY allow you to go to that, given the kinds of people that will be there and the fact that she teaches at the Catholic school!”

My daughter said:
My mother trusts me, because we have never made her ashamed of us. We don’t do drugs, we know what she allows and doesn’t allow and we live by it. Maybe your kids run amok when they are out of your line of sight, but we know that we should take our mother’s instruction seriously, because she wants us to to thrive and be safe. We don’t ever want to see that look of disappointment on her face.

I have never, ever hit my kids. It is possible to parent without physical force.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, technically speaking, no “punishment” is positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is giving someone something because they did something right. Punishment is doing something to make doing the wrong thing more uncomfortable. In my opinion, both are required for good discipline. The thing is, I spend 30 minutes kneeling on the floor all the time. I teach elementary school music lessons and we kneel to play certain instruments and do certain activities like tinickling. Sometimes legs get a little stiff, but its hardly “torture”.

Context is everything. The OP guy is referring specifically as punishment. People kneel to plant flowers too. I don’t anyone thinks kneeling is the problem. Forcing a child to do it until it makes a lasting impression of pain as deterrent or to correct behavior, is quite another thing.

 

[reggieM]

Well, technically speaking, no “punishment” is positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is giving someone something because they did something right. Punishment is doing something to make doing the wrong thing more uncomfortable. In my opinion, both are required for good discipline. The thing is, I spend 30 minutes kneeling on the floor all the time. I teach elementary school music lessons and we kneel to play certain instruments and do certain activities like tinickling. Sometimes legs get a little stiff, but its hardly “torture”.

Our altar boys (8-12 yrs old) kneel for sometimes a half an hour straight on a marble floor for solemn ceremonies with long communion times.

 

[Allegra]

Context is everything. The OP guy is referring specifically as punishment. People kneel to plant flowers too. I don’t anyone thinks kneeling is the problem. Forcing a child to do it until it makes a lasting impression of pain as deterrent or to correct behavior, is quite another thing.

Is that what he’s talking about? Having the kid kneel for hours at a time, or having the kid kneel in “time out” as a sign of deference to the parent’s authority? I’ve never actually heard of this punishment being used before, so it’s probably not part of my culture. To me, it doesn’t even sound like something that would constitute a corporal punishment to me. I think if it involved hours at a time or kneeling on something intentionally painful, then I could see the complaint, but I don’t think I know enough about this practice to judge it.

 

[DeniseNY]

Well.

My grandmother used to tell us about kneeling as punishment. When she was in grade/elementary school, the nuns’ punishment for girls was to have them roll down the tops of their “stockings,” which were basically above-the-knee wool socks, and kneel on dried beans. As an 80-something year old woman, she could look back and laugh at how painful it was.

Of course, grandma was born in 1903. I’m sure punishments have changed since then.

My father (born in 1934) has shared similar accounts from when he was in parochial school.

 

[Allegra]

The “negative consequence” is the displeasure and disappointment of their parents.

Maybe for some kids. :angel1:

For others, :slapfight: the “negative consequence” is something imposed by the parent that renders the undesired behavior “not worth it” to the kid. For my purpose, sitting in time out, losing privileges or toys, seems to be effective. The problem with corporal punishment is that you have to be willing to cause enough physical discomfort to deter the child from the undesired behavior. I’m just not willing to do it.

 

[pianistclare]

Our altar boys (8-12 yrs old) kneel for sometimes a half an hour straight on a marble floor for solemn ceremonies with long communion times.

The Op is talking about punishment. NOT religious practice or customs.

 

[reggieM]

The Op is talking about punishment. NOT religious practice or customs.

Someone claimed that kneeling was some kind of torture.

 

[Ransri]

When is it OKAY to make children KNEEL DOWN as punishment?
Does it work?
Should it be confined to DEVELOPING countries like India and Sri lanka??
Can the members including reverend priests of this forum give your valuable opinions and clarifications on this issue kindly?

 The incident described below made me to send this post!

This year(2017) I attended the “Ash Wednesday” Mass with my brother, held at our parish church in our hometown. It was a Mass mainly held for schoolchildren of a local Catholic school of our hometown previously related to the parish church. Outsiders too were not prevented from participating in that event. There, I saw,a student prefect of that school making a teenage boy to KNEEL-DOWN on church floor as a punishment after calling him back out of the pew he was sitting with his fellow mates. I dont know if he felt shy because of the presence of outsiders in that event. But I dont blame that prefect, but think the school authorities should have previously ordered those prefects on how to handle this type of student behavior.

 

[Allegra]

The incident described below made me to send this post!
This year(2017) I attended the “Ash Wednesday” Mass with my brother, held at our parish church in our hometown. It was a Mass mainly held for schoolchildren of a local Catholic school of our hometown previously related to the parish church. Outsiders too were not prevented from participating in that event. There, I saw,a student prefect of that school making a teenage boy to KNEEL-DOWN on church floor as a punishment after calling him back out of the pew he was sitting with his fellow mates. I dont know if he felt shy because of the presence of outsiders in that event. But I dont blame that prefect, but think the school authorities should have previously ordered those prefects on how to handle this type of student behavior.

Is the concern that the kid had to kneel on the floor rather than a kneeler? I’m still really concerned. This doesn’t sound like hours of kneeling or kneeling on uncooked rice. This sounds like a kid who was messing around with his friends during Mass and was made to kneel on the floor next to an older student for the duration of the Eucharistic prayer. So what?

 

[Ransri]

Is the concern that the kid had to kneel on the floor rather than a kneeler? I’m still really concerned. This doesn’t sound like hours of kneeling or kneeling on uncooked rice. This sounds like a kid who was messing around with his friends during Mass and was made to kneel on the floor next to an older student for the duration of the Eucharistic prayer. So what?

No, perhaps he was sitting with his classmates who were of same age chatting with them. But if he was punished after returning to school after mass, it would have been a different matter, which might not had happened. But what I wanted to insist here is that parish church is a public place not merely confined to school children and therefore this kind of kneeling punishment is not acceptable because it is possibly public humiliation or degrading treatment in public amid outsiders. At that context it was not a posture of devotion but a corporal punishment.

 

[reggieM]

No, perhaps he was sitting with his classmates who were of same age chatting with them. But if he was punished after returning to school after mass, it would have been a different matter, which might not had happened. But what I wanted to insist here is that parish church is a public place not merely confined to school children and therefore this kind of kneeling punishment is not acceptable because it is possibly public humiliation or degrading treatment in public amid outsiders. At that context it was not a posture of devotion but a corporal punishment.

Well, as a former student in Catholic school, I think this is a different matter. By the time many years go by, virtually all the students have to suffer a punishment or two like this and it is not that bad (although some children never forget it in a bad way).
Perhaps the presence of outsiders should have changed that, but I think the students will not humiliate each other for such a thing. Discipline like that is a daily occurrence in Catholic schools and it (was for me) is a good thing overall. It may be something to ask the teachers about in case it was too severe also.

 

[Allegra]

Well, as a former student in Catholic school, I think this is a different matter. By the time many years go by, virtually all the students have to suffer a punishment or two like this and it is not that bad (although some children never forget it in a bad way).
Perhaps the presence of outsiders should have changed that, but I think the students will not humiliate each other for such a thing. Discipline like that is a daily occurrence in Catholic schools and it (was for me) is a good thing overall. It may be something to ask the teachers about in case it was too severe also.

Yeah. Having to “sit out” because of bad behavior is one of the very few consequences American teachers still have at their disposal and is considered a very mild punishment at that. If the concern is that the student may have been embarrassed that he was called out for messing around, I don’t think that’s a reasonable concern. A student should naturally feel embarrassed if they do something they aren’t supposed to do. That’s not the same as humiliation, where the teacher, or in this case prefect, make a big show of calling attention to what the student has done. It doesn’t sound like that is what happened here at all.

Just a couple of hours ago, I heard a similar argument regarding a child who was told to leave the swimming pool area. I don’t know the reason why, but the lifeguard signaled discreetly to the pool manager, the manager went over and listened to the lifeguard, and the manager told the boy to leave the pool area. He then went over to talk to the father, presumably to explain why the boy was being banned. There was no yelling or pointing of fingers. I certainly couldn’t hear what was said, and the father didn’t appear overly upset or scandalized over the decision to remove his son from the pool.

I wouldn’t even have noticed any of this entire exchange, but for a couple swimming a few feet away from us who were flipping out about it. First it was, “Why is he making him get out of the pool? He didn’t do anything!” (They actually had no idea what he was doing, but it doesn’t seem likely that he lifeguard would have any reason to make something up.) And then they kept announcing an indignant running commentary of the entire exchange, intentionally calling attention to it. THEN when it was over, they began complaining about how horrible the manager was for “humiliating” the boy in front of “everyone”, which is ironic because if the couple had been minding their own business like everyone else, no one would have even noticed it. But then, the husband/boyfriend said something that almost made me turn around and respond. He said, “I don’t care what he did. NOTHING makes it okay to humiliate him like that.”

Now there I have to draw a line. First of all, removing a disobedient child is not “humiliating them”. If they feel embarrassed, it’s a good sign that they realize that they’ve messed up. I don’t see how the life guard or manager could have dealt with the situation more discretely than they did. Secondly, a pool is not a place for messing around and it’s the lifeguards job to keep people safe. Even if a child IS humiliated by being called out for breaking the rules, their safety and the safety of other’s trumps his “widdle feewings” and there are certainly any number of things a kid can do in a pool that warrant his immediate and irreversible removal. (Particularly in this pool which was a 12ft deep with two diving boards and some water slides.)

Anyway, Mass is not like the pool in that it isn’t usually dangerous if kids don’t follow the rules, but it is distracting and in my opinion it reflects far more poorly on the school if they allow disruptive behavior than if a prefect calls a student to sit with him in the back. (or kneel)

 

[LightBound]

St John Bosco had some thoughts on making children kneel for punishment. Given his Sainthood and the fact he worked with errant youth, perhaps his words and practice should be considered as worthwhile guidance.

“To strike a child in any way, to make him kneel in a painful position, to pull his ears, and other similar punishments must be absolutely avoided”

salesians.org/pastoral.html#punish

 

[tafan]

About 20 years ago I was serving on our parish school board and one meeting the principle told us to expect complaints from some parents. It seems he was walking down the middle school hallway and heard too much noise by the 8th grade boys in a class room, he promptly went in and marched them all out into the hallway, told them to face the wall and kneel. He came back 20 minutes later and told them to return to class. A bunch of mothers did not like it. I saw nothing wrong with it at the time, still don’t looking back at it.

He was not the “corporal punishment” type of educator, so the behavior must have been bad. I doubt it had any long term negative effect on any of the boys.

 

[Wesrock]

It is a form of physical torture…

Could someone please advise what kneeling for punishment is? Are we talking about hours? Kneeling on glass or other painful surfaces? What makes it so gravely barbaric?

I’ve never even heard of kneeling as a punishment before this.

 

[Allegra]

Could someone please advise what kneeling for punishment is? Are we talking about hours? Kneeling on glass or other painful surfaces? What makes it so gravely barbaric?

I’ve never even heard of kneeling as a punishment before this.

That’s what I said! Apparently there are some instances of people being made to kneel on rice, but if I understand correctly, the OP’s main concern is that the student was embarrassed because he was made to leave his friends who he was horsing around with and kneel next to an authority figure for the remainder of Mass.