Making Some Headway in Catholic Justification

  • Thread starter Thread starter Erick_Ybarra
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
E

Erick_Ybarra

Guest
Hello everybody,

I am excited to say that I’ve come to understand more of the Catholic position on justification, and I have to confess that I did not fully grasp the teaching until recent. And maybe there is still more grasping to be had in the future. Well, certainly there is.

I listened to a lecture from this link below. It was helpful
calledtocommunion.com/2009/04/st-paul-on-justification/

It was helpful to know that the doctors of Trent were aware of the variety of causes in a particular effect. And that there are a variety of causes in the justification of the ungodly. First, the glory of God is the ultimate goal (cause). Secondly, the efficient cause of justification is baptism. Third, the meritorious cause is Christ’s passion. And the mediatorial cause is the insfusion of faith, hope, and love.

Since one cannot remain sinful in the midst and after being justified, it must mean that deliverance from immoral sin is included in the act of justification. Both together with the remission of sins and the renewal of the person are there (Rom 6).

This is helpful.

However, something that is got me troubled is St. Clement on Justification. Oh, I am aware of his “justification by works” statement, but this is really not speaking of our soteriological justification before God in the sense that St. Paul teaches, he is just saying that we are not righteous by what we say but by what we do, and I know myself when I was a protestant, I can very well affirm that.

But take a brief look at this quote:

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Romans 9:5 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven. All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them. He also divided the earth from the water which surrounds it, and fixed it upon the immovable foundation of His own will. The animals also which are upon it He commanded by His own word into existence. So likewise, when He had formed the sea, and the living creatures which are in it, He enclosed them [within their proper bounds] by His own power. Above all, with His holy and undefiled hands He formed man, the most excellent [of His creatures], and truly great through the understanding given him— the express likeness of His own image. For thus says God: Let us make man in our image, and after our likeness. So God made man; male and female He created them. Genesis 1:26-27 Having thus finished all these things, He approved them, and blessed them, and said, Increase and multiply. Genesis 1:28 We see, then, how all righteous men have been adorned with good works, and how the Lord Himself, adorning Himself with His works, rejoiced. Having therefore such an example, let us without delay accede to His will, and let us work the work of righteousness with our whole strength.
 
Notice a couple of points:
  1. It is impossible for Clement to use the word “justified” (dikaioo) to mean “make righteous” or to be ontologically converted from practicing sin to practicing righteousness, for he comes to ask rhetorically afterward “Shall we continue in sin and not do what is righteous?”. If the word “justified” meant that God makes my righteous through faith, in the sense that they are converted to be holy, then there would be no purpose or point or logic to Clement’s question after ward.
  2. Clement here teaches that all “works” are non-contributory to justification, even moral and holy. Therefore, the exclusive inclusion of outward ceremonial jewish rituals are not the only thing spoken of when Clement says “apart from works”.
  3. It seems as though he is saying that men are “declared righteous” through “faith”, which is basically protestant. The insistence on doing good is the same kind of logic utilized by Calvin and Luther, they the “faith” which justifies, if it does not have good works, is dead and avails to no salvation at all.
  4. How can we Catholics argue that Clement is actually teaching what Trent meant ? Keeping in mind that Trent understood “justified” to include both notions of remission of sins and the process of being “made holy”.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Notice a couple of points:
  1. It is impossible for Clement to use the word “justified” (dikaioo) to mean “make righteous” or to be ontologically converted from practicing sin to practicing righteousness, for he comes to ask rhetorically afterward “Shall we continue in sin and not do what is righteous?”. If the word “justified” meant that God makes my righteous through faith, in the sense that they are converted to be holy, then there would be no purpose or point or logic to Clement’s question after ward.
Click to expand...
It is the same kind of thing Paul says …shall we sin so that grace may abound more?

There is to use later terms- the “initial justification” --the person is a new creation – is ontologically changed by God. And then one is not to “continue in sin” as they have done in the past --but rather “do what is righteous”…
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
  1. Clement here teaches that all “works” are non-contributory to justification, even moral and holy. Therefore, the exclusive inclusion of outward ceremonial jewish rituals are not the only thing spoken of when Clement says “apart from works”.
.
Click to expand...
No I do not see such as following. Rather he can take it just a Paul did in discussing initial justification…they are “non-contributory” -they do not “cause” such justification…

Pope Benedict XVI notes that yes it is not just the “works of the law” in a ceremonial etc way …but also good works that are excluded…(see the audiences I posted before…I will try to post them again later for new readers). Yes such is the case.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
  1. It seems as though he is saying that men are “declared righteous” through “faith”, which is basically protestant. The insistence on doing good is the same kind of logic utilized by Calvin and Luther, they the “faith” which justifies, if it does not have good works, is dead and avails to no salvation at all.
.
Click to expand...
It can be said they are both “declared righteous” and “made righteous”. Just as God both said creation was “good” and made it so…

It is yes by “faith” in the Pauline understanding that one is justified – by grace. It is NOT by “good works”. Such is what we profess.

Understanding faith in the Pauline sense not in just an “idea” sense as some could seek to do (not saying you of course! or even many living Protestants)

“Good works” come later…yes they are certainly involved in the Christians life after initial justification …
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
  1. How can we Catholics argue that Clement is actually teaching what Trent meant ? Keeping in mind that Trent understood “justified” to include both notions of remission of sins and the process of being “made holy”.
Click to expand...
Clement one can say I think too was writing on the run…under persecution…not sitting down to write a theological treatise.

The early fathers where not writing with some systematic theological need in mind.

And one must understand them within their Catholic context.

Heck even with Sacred Scripture one can read this phrase and that phrase and say – hey I though such and such …how does that work with such and such …

It certainly does “work with such and such” but is bringing out differing aspects or meaning something in a differing sense…or is a different genre etc etc etc.
 
A good one to discuss this with is Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers.
 
One way is to call him on Thursday Q& A show. Another is to email him at his blog.
 
Step out Eric. Take the plunge.

At some point you have to stop analyzing it and go experience it. You can spend your life analyzing it and trying to figure it out, or you can experience it, taste it for yourself. If you don’t like it you can always spit it back out, and at least you will be sure.

I’m telling you that if you do step out, and find it to be all that it claims to be, then you will regret the time you spent trying to figure it out. You will realize that the quickest way to come to understand it is to live it, and will regret not having started sooner.

Know that there are people praying for you.

-Tim-
 
Bookcat said:
For new readers -the links I referred too from Pope Benedict XVI:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (skip down)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html (an earlier one)
Click to expand...
Taking this in order of links

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html "good works " is mentioned 1 time

“Thus in Corinth the term “πάντα μοι έξεστιν” (I can do what I like) was widespread. It is obvious that this interpretation is wrong: Christian freedom is not libertinism; the liberation of which St Paul spoke is not liberation from good works.
So what does the Law from which we are liberated and which does not save mean? For St Paul, as for all his contemporaries, the word “Law” meant the Torah in its totality, that is, the five books of Moses”

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (skip down)

“good works” is not used by the pope . However he says the following

"This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith. "

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html (an earlier one)

From this document, when you see “works” he refers to “works of law”. And as he says, Justification comes in sequence. Neither “works of law” or “good works” comes 1st in justification. What comes 1st is grace. Therefore, it is not of us. It is gift.

“Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). With these words St Paul expressed the fundamental content of his conversion, the new direction his life took as a result of his encounter with the Risen Christ”

However without charity (works of love) we have nothing. Good works are really Christ in us doing the work. That’s why they are efficatious
 
steve_b said:
“good works” is not used by the pope . However he says the following

"This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith. "
Click to expand...
He states: "In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”.

Pope Benedict uses “works” in both senses in various places in these audiences. Both in terms of “good works” and in terms of “works of the Law”.
steve_b said:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html (an earlier one)

From this document, when you see “works” he refers to “works of law”.
Click to expand...
In that document he refers to both “works of the Law” and to “good works”

“Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24).”
 
Readers --but sure to read all three audiences from Pope Benedict XVI and read them slowly and even a few times…

I cannot wait for more rich writing on Faith during this Year of Faith --from Pope Benedict XVI!!!
 
Bookcat said:
He states: "In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”.

Pope Benedict uses “works” in both senses in various places in these audiences. Both in terms of “good works” and in terms of “works of the Law”.

In that document he refers to both “works of the Law” and to “good works”

“Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24).”
Click to expand...
The point being, grace comes first. Not faith and not works of charity.

But If faith is to be a justifying faith, iow, it needs to be real not a said faith

The pope also wrote

"This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith. "

That’s why Paul said

of faith hope and charity, the greatest of these is charity. [1 Cor 13:13]
 
steve_b said:
The point being, grace comes first. Not faith and not works of charity.
Yes of course

But If faith is to be a justifying faith, iow, it needs to be real not a said faith

The pope also wrote

"This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith. "

Yes indeed…

That’s why Paul said

of faith hope and charity, the greatest of these is charity. [1 Cor 13:13]

It is important to note that in the Church, in Paul “faith” can have various senses.
Click to expand...
Yes Paul is clear that tis by grace…

and tis by faith not works that a person becomes by the death and resurrection of Christ – justified.
 
Is a person justified (later term: initial justification) by their “works”? no.

Is it possible that a person be “justified” a “new creation” be living “in Christ” …and yet die and not have had time for “doing” by grace the “fruit” of some external good works (die of say a heart attack out of excitement")? --yes.

Though of course the charity that is infused into their souls by the grace of God is of course active…from the start; loving God …
 
Thanks guys for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Bookcat, I have to be honest. I love what you write in response to what I say. Truly, it kind of makes me happy. However, as I listen more and more to Catholic speakers and teachers, I think it is unavoidable that “works” that God puts in the person at Conversion are what justifies us in the sight of God. I just simply think it is unavoidable.

What I am trying to nail down here is the statement made by Clement. It is quite un-catholic. It doesn’t even line up with Catholic teaching in one aspect or dimension. For Catholics understand “justified” as being “made righteous” and so God is not lying when He calls us righteous because he puts righteousness into us. This is simply just not a viable option in Clement, for his question proceeding the statement that we are justified is the rhetorical question of whether we can live without doing anything good. Goodness gracious people, if Clement understood “justified” as the process of being made holy, how could he possibly come up with this proceeding question?

Moreover, he the works that do not contribute, according to Clement, are not Torah stipulations only, but also works of holiness and righteousness, completing exposing the historicity of the Lutheran definition applied to “works of the Law” (Rom 3:28) while not denying the more pertinent issue of Jewish exclusivism. The works really do include love and holiness general.

This quote from Clement is radically protestant, it’s scary.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Thanks guys for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Bookcat, I have to be honest. I love what you write in response to what I say. Truly, it kind of makes me happy. However, as I listen more and more to Catholic speakers and teachers, I think it is unavoidable that “works” that God puts in the person at Conversion are what justifies us in the sight of God. I just simply think it is unavoidable.
Click to expand...
See Pope Benedict XVI 🙂 (he is pretty clear on what the Church teaches…;)…we believe what Paul taught).

Is the person who is justified “passive”? No. Ordinarily moved by grace he “repents, believes in Jesus Christ and is baptized”. But such are not some good works by which man “justifies himself”. That initial justification does not depend on our good works. But the grace of God. On Jesus Christ.

As Pope Benedict XVI notes:

"Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). "

Often Catholic speakers are seeking to explain that after initial justification – that works are involved in the on going Christian life …in an “increase” in the justification (by the grace of God moving them…). Indeed often they are involved in an apologetic in terms of some who think that works play no part.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top