Making the case for black vestments

[Reuben_J]

I believe that Jesus was not only feeling sorrow for Martha and Mary but seeing them he felt “perturbed”. ** I believe he actually felt their pain of loss for his good friend, Lazarus.** Jesus experienced everything that we have experienced. So it is not difficult to believe that he also experienced mourning for his good friend Lazarus.

That’s what I said.

 

[Reuben_J]

Our Faith tells that that it is a possibility that they are going there, not a certitude. Certitude only happens in a Canonization Mass. For all other instances, we beseech God’s Mercy on the soul of the departed.

Hence, the need for prayers.

I said hope, not certitude.

Hope, not just possibility, for the thing to come as promised.

This (hope) is a very powerful attitude in the life of a Christian because it set us apart from the non-believers.

It is hope that enable us to celebrate death rather than be defeated by it with helplessness and despair sorrow.

We pray for the souls departed because we want them to get to heaven faster.

 

[zab]

That’s what I said.

Unlike what you wrote, I believe Jesus did mourn for Lazarus and not just “feel the grief of Mary and Martha…”

 

[Reuben_J]

Unlike what you wrote, I believe Jesus did mourn for Lazarus and not just “feel the grief of Mary and Martha…”

Ok noted. Thanks.

 

[Brendan]

I
We pray for the souls departed because we want them to get to heaven faster.

And hence why black is appropriate. because they are not yet in Heaven

 

[Reuben_J]

And hence why black is appropriate. because they are not yet in Heaven

I just want to make a clarification again, I would prefer white because it is a celebration. That does not mean I am against what the liturgy of the Church decides. It is just a personal preference, a musing, if you may.

You do not seem to address all what I said in my post. Never mind.

They are going to heaven, it is not a time for mourning for these souls. They had done their time on earth, now is the next part of their journey.

Even if they are in purgatory, they will eventually go to heaven. We don’t mourn for that because God has given us the grace. Purgatory and heaven is a grace, a gift from God. Why should we mourn?

Our faith as a Christian dictates us to rejoice because the deceased is going to something much better. The saints would longed for their death, the only reason for them to continue on living is to do their work (for the Lord) on earth.

Sometimes we say that we believe, but when it comes to death, we do not show that belief and behave pretty much just like any unbelievers.

We can feel sad for the death of loved ones, that is natural. Our sadness is because we would miss the deceased on earth.

Our belief in faith tells us that we too would one day go that way (of death) and we know we are going to the Lord.

Mourning is for the unbelievers, they do not know what is in store for their deceased loved ones, but we do. So why are we mourning?

Thus we should celebrate death because it is an acknowledgment of life, a gift from God. We thank God for the life on earth but our ultimate aim is when our journey ends, in heaven.

Edit:
Do you know that some saints prefer to stay longer in purgatory because they really want to be purified before entering heaven to be with the Lord? Of course, it is not for them to decide, but it shows that purgatory is not necessarily very bad either, because of the reward that will come after it.

 

[Reuben_J]

I attended a funeral mass and later the nightly memorial service of a member of the choir in our archdiocese. She was suffering from cancer, and during the final days of her life, she was very contented, accepting death and her fate.

She left a list of hymns to be sung during her funeral mass. They were all very delightful songs, she did not want her friends and relatives to mourn for her, because she has spent her time on earth and is going to the Lord.

I also attended another funeral service for a sixteen year old boy. He suffered from an incurable ailment. It was a couple of years of being sick before he died. During the funeral mass and the memorial services, his parents did not want the choir to sing mourning songs. They asked for lively thanksgiving songs to be sung in thanksgiving to God for the gift of life on earth and eternal life in heaven.

So these Christians perhaps are the contradiction of our times but nevertheless there are indeed Christian believers who take death as thanksgiving and celebration; for their sight is not on the things of earth but on the Lord. They understand the promises of eternal life and believe it in faith.

 

[zab]

I just want to make a clarification again, I would prefer white because it is a celebration. That does not mean I am against what the liturgy of the Church decides. It is just a personal preference, a musing, if you may.

You do not seem to address all what I said in my post. Never mind.

They are going to heaven, it is not a time for mourning for these souls. They had done their time on earth, now is the next part of their journey.

Even if they are in purgatory, they will eventually go to heaven. We don’t mourn for that because God has given us the grace. Purgatory and heaven is a grace, a gift from God. Why should we mourn?

Our faith as a Christian dictates us to rejoice because the deceased is going to something much better. The saints would longed for their death, the only reason for them to continue on living is to do their work (for the Lord) on earth.

Sometimes we say that we believe, but when it comes to death, we do not show that belief and behave pretty much just like any unbelievers.

We can feel sad for the death of loved ones, that is natural. Our sadness is because we would miss the deceased on earth.

Our belief in faith tells us that we too would one day go that way (of death) and we know we are going to the Lord.

Mourning is for the unbelievers, they do not know what is in store for their deceased loved ones, but we do. So why are we mourning?

Thus we should celebrate death because it is an acknowledgment of life, a gift from God. We thank God for the life on earth but our ultimate aim is when our journey ends, in heaven.

Edit:
Do you know that some saints prefer to stay longer in purgatory because they really want to be purified before entering heaven to be with the Lord? Of course, it is not for them to decide, but it shows that purgatory is not necessarily very bad either, because of the reward that will come after it.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to have a more joyous celebration at one’s funeral having a preference for white vestments. And there is nothing wrong with preferring a more reserved and solemn ceremony with the wearing of black or purple either. Like you said, it is a matter of preference. People grieve in different ways. It is not unusual to see people laughing and telling jokes and stories about their memories of their deceased loved one. That is how many get through their time of grieving. But I think we just have a difference of understanding on what “mourning” means. That is why I disagree with your comment, *“Mourning is for unbelievers.” * However, I agree with what you wrote based on your understanding of what “mourning” means.

 

[27lw]

I just want to make a clarification again, I would prefer white because it is a celebration. That does not mean I am against what the liturgy of the Church decides. It is just a personal preference, a musing, if you may.

You do not seem to address all what I said in my post. Never mind.

They are going to heaven, it is not a time for mourning for these souls. They had done their time on earth, now is the next part of their journey.

Even if they are in purgatory, they will eventually go to heaven. We don’t mourn for that because God has given us the grace. Purgatory and heaven is a grace, a gift from God. Why should we mourn?

Our faith as a Christian dictates us to rejoice because** the deceased is going to something much better.** The saints would longed for their death, the only reason for them to continue on living is to do their work (for the Lord) on earth.

Sometimes we say that we believe, but when it comes to death, we do not show that belief and behave pretty much just like any unbelievers.

We can feel sad for the death of loved ones, that is natural. Our sadness is because we would miss the deceased on earth.

Our belief in faith tells us that we too would one day go that way (of death) and we know we are going to the Lord.

Mourning is for the unbelievers, they do not know what is in store for their deceased loved ones, but we do. So why are we mourning?

Thus we should celebrate death because it is an acknowledgment of life, a gift from God. We thank God for the life on earth but** our ultimate aim is when our journey ends, in heaven.**

Edit:
Do you know that some saints prefer to stay longer in purgatory because they really want to be purified before entering heaven to be with the Lord? Of course, it is not for them to decide, but it shows that purgatory is not necessarily very bad either, because of the reward that will come after it.

I think I know what you are getting at, but aren’t you making a big assumption? How do you have such certainty that the deceased is going to heaven, and not the other place (as awful as that may be to think about)?

 

[zab]

I think I know what you are getting at, but aren’t you making a big assumption? How do you have such certainty that the deceased is going to heaven, and not the other place (as awful as that may be to think about)?

Because we have hope

 

[Reuben_J]

I think I know what you are getting at, but aren’t you making a big assumption? How do you have such certainty that the deceased is going to heaven, and not the other place (as awful as that may be to think about)?

I know us Catholics do not to talk about certainty because that belongs to the presumptous Protestants. Once saved always saved.

Well, what I was saying, we understand our belief - the promise of eternal life, it is all there. In faith we believe it will come to pass, if we have reasonably followed and lived according to its teaching.

Our options as believers, given to us, are heaven and purgatory. The latter is really due to the mercy of God where we would be purified first before going to the former.

Catholic’s context of the funeral mass is always this - that the soul will go to heaven, or at least purgatory.

It is not about hell, because if it is, there is nothing we can do about it to reverse that destination. Most understanding Catholics would know this fact and agree with it.

Normally, on death bed, Catholics would be given Sacraments (Anointing the sick, Reconciliation and Eucharist) these are outward graces. Graces are what make us right with God as St Paul said.

Granted, even then, we may not be pure enough to enter heaven because there is such thing as stain of sin, but we are not going to hell instead it will be purgatory.

So we hold to this hope in faith.

It is such a shame for Catholics if when it comes to death that we forget all about our belief, that we are totally devoid of faith or forget what our belief is and succumb to the grief of death, in defeat.

This is contradictory to what Jesus and our early brothers in the faith taught us - that death has lost its sting.

The funeral mass/memorial services should therefore be a time of comfort for the relatives of the deceased, that these belief should be made known to them again through preaching, homily, scriptural readings and emphasis.

The raising of Lazarus from the dead was a foreshadow of the thing to come. More importantly from that passage we see by the presence of Jesus and his action (to raise Lazarus from the dead) brought immeasurable relief to the deceased’s relatives (logically).

This has been the hope for Christians - resurrection on the last day. This passage was painted in the catacomb of early Christians. In fact they even believed that the resurrection happened in their life time, and they just could not wait for it to happen.

Christians do not fear death. On the other hand, they embrace this reality in a positive manner, knowing what is in store for them after the death itself.

If we do not believe in what we were taught, then our faith is a lie. We are living a lie.

 

[FrancescaMaria]

I know us Catholics do not to talk about certainty because that belongs to the presumptous Protestants. Once saved always saved.

Well, what I was saying, we understand our belief - the promise of eternal life, it is all there. In faith we believe it will come to pass, if we have reasonably followed and lived according to its teaching.

Our options as believers, given to us, are heaven and purgatory. The latter is really due to the mercy of God where we would be purified first before going to the former.

Catholic’s context of the funeral mass is always this - that the soul will go to heaven, or at least purgatory.

It is not about hell, because if it is, there is nothing we can do about it to reverse that destination. Most understanding Catholics would know this fact and agree with it.

Normally, on death bed, Catholics would be given Sacraments (Anointing the sick, Reconciliation and Eucharist) these are outward graces. Graces are what make us right with God as St Paul said.

Granted, even then, we may not be pure enough to enter heaven because there is such thing as stain of sin, but we are not going to hell instead it will be purgatory.

So we hold to this hope in faith.

It is such a shame for Catholics if when it comes to death that we forget all about our belief, that we are totally devoid of faith or forget what our belief is and succumb to the grief of death, in defeat.

This is contradictory to what Jesus and our early brothers in the faith taught us - that death has lost its sting.

The funeral mass/memorial services should therefore be a time of comfort for the relatives of the deceased, that these belief should be made known to them again through preaching, homily, scriptural readings and emphasis.

The raising of Lazarus from the dead was a foreshadow of the thing to come. More importantly from that passage we see by the presence of Jesus and his action (to raise Lazarus from the dead) brought immeasurable relief to the deceased’s relatives (logically).

This has been the hope for Christians - resurrection on the last day. This passage was painted in the catacomb of early Christians. In fact they even believed that the resurrection happened in their life time, and they just could not wait for it to happen.

Christians do not fear death. On the other hand, they embrace this reality in a positive manner, knowing what is in store for them after the death itself.

If we do not believe in what we were taught, then our faith is a lie. We are living a lie.

I can agree with everything you say and still prefer black vestments, and it could simply be a cultural thing. I do not think it is appropriate for lay people to tell a priest what to wear for Mass, but I think that a reasonable and sensitive priest in a sizable and multi-cultural parish should have both colors and offer the grieving family a choice for the funeral of their loved one. I think All Souls Day is entirely the priest’s decision of how he feels about it.

 

[Reuben_J]

I can agree with everything you say and still prefer black vestments, and it could simply be a cultural thing. I do not think it is appropriate for lay people to tell a priest what to wear for Mass, but I think that a reasonable and sensitive priest in a sizable and multi-cultural parish should have both colors and offer the grieving family a choice for the funeral of their loved one. I think All Souls Day is entirely the priest’s decision of how he feels about it.

Of course, Of course.

There is no way should a laity be telling a celebrant of the mass what to do and what to wear. That is not how it works in the liturgy. The celebrant has the full say in how he wants the mass to be. You would sometimes see how some posters in this Forum want to interfere in this role.

I have been serving in the mass/liturgy since I was a kid, as an altar boy, preparing the chapel and sacristy at daily mass/Sunday mass. Later on as a steward/warden, lector, commentator and EHMC. We would always ask the celebrant before the mass how he would want certain thing to be done - is it the shorter reading or the longer reading, how many readings would it be, say in the Easter Triduum, etc. ?

There are parts of the administration of the mass that the celebrant would leave it to the laity to decide, for example, what hymns to be sung. The celebrant still has the final say, if he wants to.

I am saying this, so that we see the role of the mass in perspective.

This thread is asking for discussion in support of our preference in the color of vestment. It is not for us to tell the priest what to wear, nor this would be telling the Church liturgy what to decide. Make no mistake about that.

My point is really that Christians should see death as NOT the end of the story. It is just going into another phase of the journey, the final one.

Life on earth is temporary. We are just tourists. One day, each one of us will have to return to our permanent home. It can either be heaven, purgatory or hell, depends on the final judgment of God.

As Christians, by virtue of our Baptism, we are made right with God, and the Father has many rooms in His house, where Jesus is going back to, and which are prepared for us where we would be.

Thus Christians should see death in a different perspective because that is our belief.

We are unlike non-Christians. For us, death is where we would simply ‘go home’, to something much better than here on earth, where there will be no tears in our eyes.

A positive ambience in the funeral mass to demonstrate this belief would indeed bring comfort to the relatives of the deceased. While they may feel sad for the loss of their loved ones, their faith and hope would comfort them and make them happy for the departed.

This should be symbolized by not what the secular world do but by what Christian believe - thanksgiving, celebration and victory. For death, we have overcome!

.

 

[Reuben_J]

If the reason for the color of the vestment is purely cultural, then it depends on the locality or region. In other parts of the world, people do not wear black during funeral.

While I can understand inculturation of the mass, generally in the main thing, it must reflect the belief/theology behind it.

 

[JimG]

I never thought about it before, but in some ways the EF requiem Mass seemed to make more allowance for mourners to grieve. It’s not that there is any difference in the theology. It doesn’t matter to me if I have a OF Mass for my own funeral and probably white vestments; just so people don’t forget to have Masses said for me.

 

[FrancescaMaria]

If the reason for the color of the vestment is purely cultural, then it depends on the locality or region. In other parts of the world, people do not wear black during funeral.

While I can understand inculturation of the mass, generally in the main thing, it must reflect the belief/theology behind it.

Since the Church prescribes black, white and violet, all of these colors are theologically supported and the choice depends on preference and culture. In some Polish and Eastern European circles, it is very odd to use anything else besides black for a funeral. (White could be perceived as too casual and not conveying the appropriate respect in that culture).
I agree with everything that you (Reuben) so beautifully said about the hope for resurrection and all the theology and I believe it wholeheartedly, yet I still find black to be more solemn, more beautiful, more elegant, more conducive to prayer, and more suitable for a funeral. It is subjective, personal and cultural.

 

[pianistclare]

White for me. Just like the pall that will be used.

 

[Reuben_J]

Since the Church prescribes black, white and violet, all of these colors are theologically supported and the choice depends on preference and culture. In some Polish and Eastern European circles, it is very odd to use anything else besides black for a funeral. (White could be perceived as too casual and not conveying the appropriate respect in that culture).
I agree with everything that you (Reuben) so beautifully said about the hope for resurrection and all the theology and I believe it wholeheartedly, yet I still find black to be more solemn, more beautiful, more elegant, more conducive to prayer, and more suitable for a funeral. It is subjective, personal and cultural.

Thanks, Francesca, for being charitable. I agree with you that it’s can be subjective, and it’s the beauty of the Church to allow, to some extent, inculturation into our mass.

God bless you.