Malays can not renounce Islam, court says

[Guar_Fan]

She seems caught in a Catch-22 situation.

The Court of Appeal dismissed an appeal by a woman who filed an originating summons to delete the word “Islam” from her identity card and claimed she is free to practise the religion of her choice.

She wanted to delete the word “Islam” from her identity card on the grounds that the syariah court and other Islamic religious authorities did not confirm her renunciation of Islam.

Justice Datuk Faiza Thambi Chik had held that as Lina was a Malay, she could not renounce Islam.

In his judgment on April 23, 2001, he also refused to decide on Lina’s wish to renounce Islam on the grounds that the issue should be decided by the syariah court.

Malaysia Star article

 

[WanderAimlessly]

So much for freedom of religion in Malaysia.

I wonder what will happen if she did go to the syariah court?

PF

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

WanderAimlessly:

So much for freedom of religion in Malaysia.

I wonder what will happen if she did go to the syariah court?

PF

Off with her head!

http://home.earthlink.net/~erinoleary/child/chpics/queen.jpg

 

[wabrams]

Sounds like the US: whacky judges.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

wabrams:

Sounds like the US: whacky judges.

The sharya penalty for apostacy is death, usually by beheading.

From Wikipedia:

One of the death-penalty supporting scholars, Dr. A. Rahman I. Doi in Shariah: The Islamic Law (A.S. Noordeen, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 1998, p. 265-267) states, “The punishment by death in the case of apostasy has been unanimously agreed upon by all the four schools of Islamic jurisproudence”. Alhaji Ajijola in Introduction to Islamic law ( International Islamic Publishers, New Delhi, India, 1989 p.128) states that Apostasy is a Hadd sentence and the penelty prescribed is death. Adbul Qadir Oudah, a prolific Egyptian Shari’a scholar in Criminal Law of Islam (Translated by S. Zakir Aijaz, Kitab Bhavan,New Delhi, India, 1999 (Improved edition), Volume II. p. 258-262; Volume IV. p. 19-21, ISBN: 81-7151-273-9 ) states that the view advocated by the jurists belonging to all the four madhabs of Islam is “According to the Shariah taking ‘murtad’s’ life is an impunitive act or one exempt from punishment. Hence if some one kills him, he will not be deemed as wilfully guilty.” The legal issue between the different schools being when a muslim can act against an apostate without the sanction of the organised state. In 'Abdurrahmani’l-Djaziri’s Kitabul’l-fiqh 'ala’l-madhahibi’l-'arba’a (Vol. 5, pp.422-440) (Translated from the Arabic)First English Edition (Villach): 1997: the claim is "All four imams (the founders of the four schools of Islamic law) – may Allah have mercy upon them – agree that the apostate whose fall from Islam is beyond doubt – may Allah forbid it – must be killed, and his blood must be spilled without reservation. The hypocrite and heretic (zindiq) who poses as a Muslim but has secretly remained an unbeliever must also be killed.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Scott_Lafrance:

The sharya penalty for apostacy is death, usually by beheading.

That is what I thought, but I was not sure.

PF

 

[Lurch104]

Any muslems care to comment? Do you agree with the court or the possible death sentence? How do you reconcile this bit of news with the muslems always saying that there is no compulsion in religion?

 

[Edris]

Lurch104:

Any muslems care to comment? Do you agree with the court or the possible death sentence? How do you reconcile this bit of news with the muslems always saying that there is no compulsion in religion?

  I don't know about the court thing,  that depends on the country,  nothing to do with religion.   
 
      As for the beheading thing and compulsion in religion.   First you're right there is no compulsion in religion,  no one is forced to become a muslim,  But the problem is if a muslim wants to quit islam, The death penalty is used only in one case,  if he abondoned the Islamic faith when the muslims needed him, like for example in a state of war, or a natural catastrophy, etc.  and as I know from the stories about the prophet Muhammad pbuh,  that death penalty took place once when a group of muslims "turned against" (and not just quit) their muslim brothers during a war.

And a second time, when a Jewish tribe from Medinah broke a Peace treaty between them and the Muslims, while the muslims were under attack from Infidels of Quraish. After the muslims won the war the Jewish were captured as prisoners, so the Prophet asked one of the Jewish Rabis to decide for their fate, and he decided for the death penalty (the decision was taken by the Jewish themselves).

 

[cute2904]

Edris:

I don’t know about the court thing, that depends on the country, nothing to do with religion.

      As for the beheading thing and compulsion in religion.   First you're right there is no compulsion in religion,  no one is forced to become a muslim,  But the problem is if a muslim wants to quit islam, The death penalty is used only in one case,  if he abondoned the Islamic faith when the muslims needed him, like for example in a state of war, or a natural catastrophy, etc.  and as I know from the stories about the prophet Muhammad pbuh,  that death penalty took place once when a group of muslims "turned against" (and not just quit) their muslim brothers during a war.

And a second time, when a Jewish tribe from Medinah broke a Peace treaty between them and the Muslims, while the muslims were under attack from Infidels of Quraish. After the muslims won the war the Jewish were captured as prisoners, so the Prophet asked one of the Jewish Rabis to decide for their fate, and he decided for the death penalty (the decision was taken by the Jewish themselves).

Malaysia is built in islamic state. how could you say you dont know about the court thing. you should know. you smart with our bible, you should be smart with your own rules.

The decision did take by the jewish themselves, I’m sure the choice should be embrace islam or death penalty. no wonder they choose death penalty…

 

[Franze]

It isn´t interesting for me, I say that Malaysia isn´t islamic, this is a ostrich doctrine, but it isn´t the reality. They´re muslims, are you better muslims than them?

 

[cestusdei]

No compulsion in religion, BUT if you change to another religion we will kill you. That is how it should read. I remember an Egyptian guy I knew and when I asked what he would do if his brother converted to Christianity he said, “I would kill him”. Ah brotherly love.

 

[jaydog77]

Is anyone really surprised here?

Our sole muslim response has interesting implications. Would a catholic/christian/jew/other KILL a member of the community just because they abondoned the others in a time of war/catastrophy/crisis? He seems to be saying that sure there is the death penalty but only in very specific circumstances, therefore it is okay. Even the circumstances are messed up! It would NEVER be okay. And even if the “Jewish” as you called them chose the fate, how is it okay to take that life? What kind of ethic is that? If someone asks me to kill them, the first thought on my mind would be getting them a shrink, not killing them. In fact, that would never enter my mind.

And if there is no compulsion in religion, can someone explain to me why women have to wear coverings in Islam’s birthplace? Sounds like compusion to me! And why can’t they venture outside without a male family member escort? ditto. The ultimate in compulsion of course being given the choice to become a muslim or a dhimmi when they take over. Wearing a distinctive mark on your clothes, paying a special tax, different legal protections and requirements (“infidels” not able to be witnesses against muslim criminals for ex), the list goes on. Is it really a choice to live as official 2nd class citizens when your life is always at the whims of the muslim masters? Heck, become a muslim and live an easy life.

Technically, Mohammad’s having a child bride of 6 -9 years of age (apparently some disagreement as to HOW young she was) by modern western legal thought would be recognized as compulsion as well. Aside from the fact that it is rape and pedophilia but I guess that’s besides the point.

 

[JimG]

cestusdei:

No compulsion in religion, BUT if you change to another religion we will kill you. That is how it should read. I remember an Egyptian guy I knew and when I asked what he would do if his brother converted to Christianity he said, “I would kill him”. Ah brotherly love.

Well, this makes theological discussions with Baptists seem easy by comparison.

 

[cestusdei]

I listened to a Muslim preacher moan about how some converts to Islam are treated by their families. I dearly wanted to ask him about how Muslim families react in the opposite situation.

One rule for the dhimmi was that if they were being beaten by a Muslim they could ask him to stop, but not defend themselves. If they did they were killed. You couldn’t even raise your arms to ward off the blows. Isn’t Islam peaceful?

 

[Edris]

Peace everyone,

     I like it,  when christians talk about Islam in a way,  as if they never heard of their own history.    Your comments are pitiful.
   You said the church and Mr Pop XIIIIV apologized for what the christians did in the past 1900 years,  ok apology accepted,  but what about now.   If you don't live in the reality world, that's your own problem.

“Washington - United States officials will probably seek **at least one death penalty charge ** against John Walker Lindh, the so-called American Taliban captured in Afghanistan, the New York Times reported on Saturday.” (int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1009027262522B223)

“During the Second World War, the crime of treachery,** with a mandatory death penalty**, was created under the Treachery Act 1940 [1]. Anyone who spied for Germany, committed sabotage or otherwise aided the enemy was liable to be prosecuted for treachery, which was easier to prove than high treason because allegiance to the Crown did not have to be proven. 17 people were hanged for treachery during the war…”.

“Every government in Europe at the time punished both treason and heresy by a very painful death. However unjustified it may be today, the Church still upholds the death penalty in principle.” (cym.perthcatholic.org.au/whynot/inquisition.php)

**I’ll give you something to reflect on, although I know you don’t have the means.

The words “Kill”, “Killing”, “kill it”, “Kill them” combined are mentioned in Qur’an: 21 times. (This is the total of the four words).

The word “Kill” is mentioned in Bible: 126 times
The word “Killing” is mentioned in Bible: 5 times
The word “Kill them” is mentioned in Bible: 47 times
The word “Kill it” is mentioned in Bible: 65 times
**Total: 243 ** **
** And by the way, I excluded in my search the 7 books (Apocrypha) from the Bible. **

Peace

 

[MugenOne]

You are so wrong! Abandoning Islam is death period! I brought this question up to a friend of mine who is a Muslim. He told me that if you convert into any religion, the punishment is death. Here are the question. Why do you punish someone for converting into a religion? If you argue that abandoning Islam in the state of war is death, is Islam at war with the West? Isn’t God Who will judge us for our own action? You aren’t the arbitrator of life. God is! Killing someone in the name of God because he/she converted, God will surely reward you with a place in eternal damnation with 72 devil virgins to please you.

Wasn’t God created us to have a free will? We can do whatever we want to do. We’ll be responsible for our action and God will judge us accordingly.

 

[cute2904]

Edris:

Peace everyone,

     I like it,  when christians talk about Islam in a way,  as if they never heard of their own history.    Your comments are pitiful.

Same like you muslim here.

You said the church and Mr Pop XIIIIV apologized for what the christians did in the past 1900 years, ok apology accepted, but what about now. If you don’t live in the reality world, that’s your own problem.{/QUOTE]

Well we have seen the reality now.

“Washington - United States officials will probably seek **at least one death penalty charge **

against John Walker Lindh, the so-called American Taliban captured in Afghanistan, the New York Times reported on Saturday.” (int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1009027262522B223)

“During the Second World War, the crime of treachery,** with a mandatory death penalty**, was created under the Treachery Act 1940 [1]. Anyone who spied for Germany, committed sabotage or otherwise aided the enemy was liable to be prosecuted for treachery, which was easier to prove than high treason because allegiance to the Crown did not have to be proven. 17 people were hanged for treachery during the war…”.

“Every government in Europe at the time punished both treason and heresy by a very painful death. However unjustified it may be today, the Church still upholds the death penalty in principle.” (htttp://cym.perthcatholic.org.au/whynot/inquisition.php) Some of these are speaking about world war. Perhaps you could come up with recent news?

**I’ll give you something to reflect on, although I know you don’t have the means.

The words “Kill”, “Killing”, “kill it”, “Kill them” combined are mentioned in Qur’an: 21 times. (This is the total of the four words).

The word “Kill” is mentioned in Bible: 126 times
The word “Killing” is mentioned in Bible: 5 times
The word “Kill them” is mentioned in Bible: 47 times
The word “Kill it” is mentioned in Bible: 65 times**

                                             **Total: 243 ** 
** And by the way,  I excluded in my search the 7 books (Apocrypha) from the Bible. **   :rolleyes:

Peace

Action speaks louder

Yeah… and most of words would say : Do not kill this…. Do not kill that…
Could you find another reasonable explanation about the posting here? Rather than you attack us back with KILL words…

 

[Edris]

MugenOne:

Wasn’t God created us to have a free will? We can do whatever we want to do. We’ll be responsible for our action and God will judge us accordingly.

“And say: “The truth is from your Lord.” Then whosoever wills, let him believe, and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve. Verily, We have prepared for the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.), a Fire whose walls will be surrounding them (disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh). And if they ask for help (relief, water, etc.) they will be granted water like boiling oil, that will scald their faces. Terrible the drink, and an evil Murtafaqâ (resting place)!” (Qur’an 18:29)

 

[Edris]

cute2904:

Some of these are speaking about world war. Perhaps you could come up with recent news?

"However unjustified it may be today, the Church still upholds the death penalty in principle.” (htttp://cym.perthcatholic.org.au/whynot/inquisition.php)

Which part of “today” you don’t understand?

 

[exoflare]

cute2904:

Yeah… and most of words would say : Do not kill this…. Do not kill that…
Could you find another reasonable explanation about the posting here? Rather than you attack us back with KILL words…

LOL I know. This is too funny.