Male and Female participation...Servers

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PbloPicasso

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I would like to get the position of Eastern Catholics on the issue of competition of girls and boys for serving. Does your parish have issues that show more participation of girls than boys. Have you discussed this in any depth. I’m a returning Catholic -western- but came back home after studying Eastern Orthodoxy. I want to be Orthodox, not the kind of Catholic that overlooks everything I see wrong…obviously wrong. It seems that developmental issues of boys and girls are not even taken into consideration when decisions are made.

We have a 2 miss, remove from list, policy. The policy doesn’t even take into consideration parents or family issues. If a boy is part of a family with issues, he is not responsible for missing; his parents are responsible. We’ve been given the order from our parish priest that boys need to constitute half of the servers. But the women in charge of the service push the envelope and say they’re only following policy. However, they could have boys serving double the girls to make up the difference. I believe this is being done intentionally because there are plenty of boys. The reason the girls don’t mess may vary. The problem is that the Church needs priests, not priestesses. I see the femininization of the Church. This is a new issue I was never accustomed to when I left the Catholic Church many years ago. But my father saw it coming. He predicted all the problems I see today. He died broken hearted after his boys left the church, including the only seminarian that left because of the inappropriate advanced made upon me by a spiritual director while I was a seminarian. The issues were building while I was there in 70’ to 80’. One excuse after another was handed to me for what happened. But no one ever took responsibility for what happened. My later military training made me more hardened about not accepting lame excuses for such bad behavior.

I came back to Catholicism kicking and screaming. I’m having issues seeing how the bishop of Rome can be infallible when this issues is growing by leaps and bounds through the Catholic Church. We see women running the show on a massive scale behind the scenes now. 90% or more of the Church is now run by women - women with very strong wills that do not always gibe with Church teaching. I see many of them show their disdain for male deacon candidates, which I fall into, and their strong opinions about women priests. The men seem scared to stand their ground, particularly the clergy. Where are all the real men? Men should be willing to stand up for truth, in spite of the adversity. I’m not some womanizer by any measure. I’m not a bigot on any level. I only try to follow the truth, not the man made creations that have lead us to this chaos.

Is Orthodoxy any better? I’ve made it clear to my wife that I plan to go to the Orthodox Church in any case if I discover a trend towards accepting women clergy because this would be a deal breaker, a recognition that the Catholic Church is in error. I"m already almost there. I came home to discern which is true. I believe that both of the Churches are truth when together. When separated, I have doubts that either is truth, but that either would be just as condemning, I’m really confused and upset at the same time. **

I’m Not trying to step on toes, just looking for answers and help from my eastern brothers and sisters. **
 
If I were a betting man I would say that Eastern Catholics are just like the Orthodox and do not allow female altar servers.
 
When the early church fathers saw all the heresys of the day being promoted in the church or when St.John vianney saw the heresy of Jansinism floating around the seminaries by Church officials themselves. Did he say to himself… think I’ll leave the Church, the Pope cannot have the charism of infallibility with all this going on? Or did St.Paul when he challenged Peters private opinion upon a matter say to himself… Your not the man for the job think I’ll go join the pagans in their sing song to some blank wall they call their God?

Have you ever taken into consideration that the whole mess you speak of that at this moment Christ is on the Cross as we speak?

Dont be looking at the sinful conduct of the Churches members and judging that the pope and church does not teach truth as a result. You might as well throw out the Bible as all its authors are sinners if thats the case. Look to Christ instead and pray for it to come to an end, instead of sticking your head in the sand and running away. Be the man who built his house on a rock ( peter ) and make a firm stand in your faith.

I dont judge the protestant church according to the sinfulness and conduct of its members, but whether or not it teaches me Truth in accordance with Sacred Scripture and Tradition.
 
Well I shall only speak about female altar servers for I know this for a fact. The Ruthenian Catholic Church does not allow females to serve on the altar since it tries to follow the guidelines of the Orthodox.
 
Mojo is correct, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church doesnt now and never has had female alter servers, cant speak for the others but I would strongly suspect not. I agree that a Church needing vocations doesn`t need to have female alter servers.
 
I know of several Catholic churches in the Roman Rite that do not allow altar girls (in the Roman Rite, they do not have to allow girls to serve - it’s totally up to the priest to decide). It just takes a bit of digging to find these parishes.
 
I’d leave, but my wife is smitten with the Franciscan Friars. One of my reasons for being upset is that my son is discerning a vocation to the priesthood. The priest is complaining about not have enough male servers, for EMHC as well. But the women keep flocking in hords. I may serve once per month but would gladly serve weekly. The problem is that as long as you have women running the show their going t utilize the learned lessons of the feminist movement to seize control, and they do…everywhere.

Stephentlig, Your response is offensive to my brothers and sisters in the eastern Church, both Catholic and Orthodox. It is Pope John Paul II that allowed this to occur. It is one of the many reasons I’m having issues with the infallibility of the papacy at this time. And as far as I’m concerned, I still feel called to Eastern Orthodoxy and believe much of what is taught. This overly cognitive urge to define everything and leave nothing to mystery is bazaar to me. I was not raised Catholic. I was raised Protestant.

amgp, the Latin rite changed this while I was gone. It was all the chaos that convinced me from the 70’s and 80’s that I’d go to hell if I remained Catholic as taught me by my Protestant family. During my return I discovered the Eastern Catholic rites and started by contacting Orthodox priests who directed me in my studies. My wife refused to even consider Orthodoxy because of prejudices against beards, believe it or not. Now, I feel lost and have been trying to align my belief to Catholicism but still find myself leaning towards Orthodoxy.
 
Although it is forbidden by the bishops of the Byzantine Catholic churches I have actually seen girl altar boys in a Ukrainian Catholic church…😃
 
ciero said:
Although it is forbidden by the bishops of the Byzantine Catholic churches I have actually seen girl altar boys in a Ukrainian Catholic church…😃
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I’ve seen this too and it also concerns me.
 
In the Chaldean parish in our area, they have female servers. Although it seems the females have limited roles and don’t actually serve the altar. Once they were holding candles behind the altar, and their other function was to deliver the chalice of peace (sign of peace) to the congregation. But the altar was directly served by 2 boys. Thats worth noting.
 
PbloPicasso said:
I came back to Catholicism kicking and screaming. I’m having issues seeing how the bishop of Rome can be infallible when this issues is growing by leaps and bounds through the Catholic Church. We see women running the show on a massive scale behind the scenes now. 90% or more of the Church is now run by women - women with very strong wills that do not always gibe with Church teaching. I see many of them show their disdain for male deacon candidates, which I fall into, and their strong opinions about women priests. The men seem scared to stand their ground, particularly the clergy. Where are all the real men? Men should be willing to stand up for truth, in spite of the adversity. I’m not some womanizer by any measure. I’m not a bigot on any level. I only try to follow the truth, not the man made creations that have lead us to this chaos.
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An interesting note on this is that women in the Orthodox Church have a very prominent place in running affairs, and have traditionally. I don’t think women in these positions can be blamed for modernism in the Catholic Church. Even Joseph Stalin acknowledged that it was the women that maintained the Orthodox Church.

I think the issues in the west arrise from a culture of accepting change. In the East you always kick and scream at least a little when someone tries to change something. 😉
 
As I said, I am not sexist in anyway. My mom raised me to respect women. She was a single working mother, civil divorced, not annulment until my dad decided to apply. Mom was not Catholic. Women runnings things behind the scene with the direction of the priest is fine. But when the girls severely out number the boys, 80% to 20%, then there is a serious problem. If the “policy” forces a non-driving boy out then it is designed to punish the parents, not the child. It is unfair if the boy is discerning a vocation. In fact, my son is called upon first to serve the bishop in my parish. His missed assignments were probably because of my sick wife. No one bothers to ask and calling someon is way over complicated. They doc you anyway.

When a parish allows jerkish behavior from the staff with small taps on the hand, then allowing a child a little leighway is probably justified, particularly when the boy really loves to serve. My son is scheduled for altar serving and EMHC. He wanted to be a sacrastan but because of our disorganized chaotic life, he couldn’t. Our children are suffering because of their sick mother, who couldn’t ballance a checkbook to save her life. He is being punished for a problem with his mother. It’s unjust. Moreover, it’s really imprudent.
 
Mojo674 said:
Well I shall only speak about female altar servers for I know this for a fact. The Ruthenian Catholic Church does not allow females to serve on the altar since it tries to follow the guidelines of the Orthodox.
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The liturgical ministries open to women in the Ruthenian Church are lay cantor, lay reader, and usher; half the boys in the parish are behind the iconostas during liturgy. Ruthenian Particular Law, as promulgated following Rome’s approval, bars women from ministry behind the iconostas.
 
Aramis said:
The liturgical ministries open to women in the Ruthenian Church are lay cantor, lay reader, and usher; half the boys in the parish are behind the iconostas during liturgy. Ruthenian Particular Law, as promulgated following Rome’s approval, bars women from ministry behind the iconostas.
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Except to run the vacuum and dust. 😃
 
PbloPicasso said:
As I said, I am not sexist in anyway. My mom raised me to respect women. She was a single working mother, civil divorced, not annulment until my dad decided to apply. Mom was not Catholic. Women runnings things behind the scene with the direction of the priest is fine. But when the girls severely out number the boys, 80% to 20%, then there is a serious problem. If the “policy” forces a non-driving boy out then it is designed to punish the parents, not the child. It is unfair if the boy is discerning a vocation. In fact, my son is called upon first to serve the bishop in my parish. His missed assignments were probably because of my sick wife. No one bothers to ask and calling someon is way over complicated. They doc you anyway.

When a parish allows jerkish behavior from the staff with small taps on the hand, then allowing a child a little leighway is probably justified, particularly when the boy really loves to serve. My son is scheduled for altar serving and EMHC. He wanted to be a sacrastan but because of our disorganized chaotic life, he couldn’t. Our children are suffering because of their sick mother, who couldn’t ballance a checkbook to save her life. He is being punished for a problem with his mother. It’s unjust. Moreover, it’s really imprudent.
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Yes, it certainly sounds like modernism run amok. And it is horrible to punish children for what their parents do.
 
Our pastor just replied to my wife’s email this morning. She told him very humbly that she doesn’t know all about Catholicism but that if he attended one of our previous faith tradition services he would be in shock too about the fact that no women are ever allowed under any circumstances to serve during the services based upon the scriptures, which still bother’s us. However, we’ve overlooked this and believe it is a modern day heresy that does in fact bother me particularly because of my knowledge of scripture and theology from my past as well as history. It’s not a smack against women but rather a determination to please God.

My wife went on to say that it just baffles her that anyone would dismiss our son who LOVES to serve and that with all the complaints of not having enough male servers why would they not jump at the chance to let him continue serving. She also acknowledged her own illness as a reason for his possible absense in the past but now that he has a drivers license he can make sure to attend when he serves. Father said he was unaware of this and would correct it immediately as well as apologize.

As nice as this sounds, it still doesn’t solve the long standing imprudence that I’ve observed the western church parishes across the board. I’m convinced that something major is wrong and needs to be set aside. I plan to look at Orthodoxy perspectives to see where the early heresies really appeared…was it mostly in the west or the east. I’m trying to understand. It makes no sense and sense I already have major issues with the lack of pasoral care provided across the board I’m always suspicious of anyone that thinks they are so special they can’t be reached. My faith traditon was in the Church of Christ, a non-denominational faith that rejects all denominations. They even claim non-denominational churches are really a denomination based on scriptural facts. Long story.

My father-in-law was an elder before passing. We have several preachers in our family. We also have many deacons. One of my brother-in-law’s is a bishop as well. Note: its a congregational relationship, so they are mostly referred to as elders, rarely as pastors (biblical terms). So I’ve developed a distrust of those that think of themselves so highly that they refuse to apologize on behalf of one of their own preachers when they in fact step out of line. I believe I know the truth, but the truth is somewhere between Latin and Eastern Orthodox. I don’t even believe that the Orthodox are completely correct. I believe the only truth lies somewhere in the gray area that has been conveniently smeared over the centuries.

No offense to anyone. This is just where I’m at spiritually. Coming home was more of a regurgitating reaction because of my history with the Catholic Church and its leadership, or mishap leadership in many cases. I would not say most, but that may be the case. I firmly believe in a return to the married priesthood because the writing is on the wall everywhere today that we need this for the sake of the flock, not to mention saving face in the eyes of our separated brethren.

I highly value the celibates and their particular vocation. Theirs is a special vocation. They will make good bishops one day provided they remain faithful to the faith. But so many people in todays society need the advice from married men who are also spiritual leaders, like where I came from. Some of the best advice I’ve received came from my previous faith and the married church leaders, particularly the elders. They’ve been good to us in so many ways I’ve never experienced in the Catholic Church. But there is also a flip side to having priests with the sacraments. Some of the advice is worthless in my opinion and a desperate reach. But some of it is really insightful. I prefer to speak with married men about my private and family life and that is one more reason I feel drawn to the eastern rites.

I also prefer the eastern rite leaders insistence on ramaining faithful to tradition. I feel that the Latin rite leaders seem to always be coming up with some strange angle to meander around sacred traditions as a way of explaining away truth. I still believe in the primacy of the bishop of Rome, but I wonder if it’s not overstated. It reminds me of what happened to the Eastern Catholics in the 19th and 20th century, when the priests were told they could not have their families living with them in America because it would cause scandal. Just implying that is scandalous. I’m also reminded of the EMHCs blessing folks in the new production line, as opposed to communion line, which was recently stopped, thankfully, in our diocese. That too was justified with blabbering rhetoric that made no sense whatsoever. I just accepted it until something was done about it.

I see so many disparities and because of the flack we receive from our huge Protestant families it makes us ask why we converted at all. Then we remind ourselves of the Eucharist. That is all that keeps us going because we believe in the sacraments, just not sure if we believe in the leaders… meaning trust issues.
 
ciero said:
Except to run the vacuum and dust. 😃
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Those aren’t liturgical ministries. Tho there’s one baba we wish would wait until after ECF class and fellowship time ends to run the vacuum cleaner…
 
Aramis said:
Those aren’t liturgical ministries. Tho there’s one baba we wish would wait until after ECF class and fellowship time ends to run the vacuum cleaner…
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:rotfl:
This baba leaves the work in the Holy Place, including any dusting and vacuuming, to the men folk. 🙂 We of the “feminine genius”, as Blessed John Paul II so aptly spoke of us, serve in many necessary and unique ways in the Church. Blessed JPII in his wonderful work Theology of the Body addresses so well the inherent complementarity of male and female. We Catholic and Orthodox Christians understand so profoundly the many gifts of the female of the species, perfectly manifest in the mother of us all, whom all of creation praises whose body became a throne, and womb He made more spacious than the heavens. We bring our female “genius” to many works in the Church. Serving in the Holy Place encourages a mistaken identity.

IMHO the recent innovation in the Latin Church of female altar servers was a very unfortunate step. I’ve heard plenty of young boys when the topic of altar server comes up say “:dts: that’s a girl thing!” ie no way, not gunna do that! This has had consequences for vocations to the priesthood.

The new move in parts of the UGCC to allow young female altar servers is really a disturbing affront to orthodox praxis. Why would we want to confuse our girls about the unique and beautiful gifts we females have, and the unique and beautiful gifts males have, by adding to this identity confusion, already so rampant in the secular culture? When we love and embrace our unique female identity, lovingly created as we were in the image and likeness of God, we can enjoy the roles that are ours by our glorious inheritance. 👍
 
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