Male consecrated virgins

[scoobydoo6v92]

JMJ

Thanks for your reply, scoobydoo6v92!

We’re somewhat equivocating terms here. Yes, there is a sense of virginity that is associated with sexual activity, viz. intercourse. At this level, there are many from all walks of life who try to argue different things: some say that other forms of sexual activity also result in a loss of virginity; some say one can “regain” his/her virginity by recommitting to abstinence until marriage; etc.

For the Roman Catholic Church, however, virginity is more than a physical state: as I mentioned in my post, virginity has as much to do with purity of the mind as it does a physiological status. It is true that (most of the time) men cannot control the content of the dreams they are having at the time of a nocturnal emission; nevertheless, we still run into complications by your definition, as it would mean a man could engage in every sexual activity save intercourse and still be a virgin. The sense of “purity” is thus lost. Like I said, for a woman, it’s determined by the hymen being stretched or not. (Yes, this becomes complicated today when tampons, gynecologists, and even–so I’m told–horseback riding can cause the hymen to stretch.) A female virgin (theoretically) cannot ever be sexually stimulated or reach climax and remain a virgin (i.e. hymen intact). For a male, there is no equivalent for the hymen, but the process of ejaculation is the result of his climax. Therefore, a male can be sexually stimulated and active and not lose his virginity…this doesn’t make sense.

But again, let me emphasize: this is based on how the Church understands the word “virgin” in relation to the purity of mind and body, and the total giving of one’s self to Jesus Christ. Look at the saints: men are NEVER considered virgins. Do you think this is because the great and holy apostles, doctors of the Church, popes, bishops, priests, and religious, all, at one time or another, had sexual intercourse? Let us suppose, then, that for all of these, the title “virgin” is assumed (because, for example, a female religious is not listed as “St. Birgitta, religious and virgin”, but only “religious”; although, it is interesting that St. Therese of Lisieux and St. Theresa of Avila, both Carmelites, and St. Catherine of Siena, a Third Order Dominican, are listed as “virgins and doctors” rather than “religious and doctors”, and St. Elizabeth of Hungary is listed as “religious” and we know she was not a virgin). For women, where applicable, “virgin” is listed with “martyr” or “doctor of the Church”. Yet, for the males, excluding martyrs that are of the religious or clergy, we don’t see St. John the Baptist, Sts. Cosmas and Damien, or St. Stephen, the proto-martyr, listed as virgins; are we about to insinuate that St. John the Baptist, who many hold as being one of the two non-divine humans born without original sin (not conceived without it, like Mary, but some hold that John was cleansed of original sin at the Visitation), was sexually active? That is erroneous, even scandalous.

In short, no matter how much you feel like a virgin, don’t think anyone will be praying from the Common of Virgins on your feast day!

God love you!

Great!! I and many other men are off the hook, I mean really. Oh I have talked to women and some have had dream induced stimuli and well anyways. What’s the sense then if I am not considered a virgin, All that offering is just now down the toilet. Well there has got to be some grace incurred for not doing the act of intercourse and do all I could and can to keep control of my eyes, and thoughts. This argument is like you do all you can to live the teachigns of the church and of Christ and do all you could, but ,you know, you’re still going to hell. What’s the sense of trying if all the trying and sacrafice of not getting married whether or not I am going to be ordained a priest, I don’t agree sorry. I just don’t believe that. And if a woman stretched her hymen by horse riding or bicycle riding or what ever innocent incident took place that means she is not a virgin??? Many priests tell me that in fact I still retain virginity as the fact is I never had sex and I never will as a sacrafice and out of total love for our Virgin Mother. God bless Scoob.

 

[Ocarm]

For the Roman Catholic Church, however, virginity is more than a physical state:

…

But again, let me emphasize: this is based on how the Church understands the word “virgin” in relation to the purity of mind and body, and the total giving of one’s self to Jesus Christ.

I’d be interested to know of an authoritative Church source defining the argument that you’re advancing - that is to say, a Church document that details the particular physical requirements that you state are the only valid expression of virginity, and the apparent impossibility of adult male virginity. It’s a stance that is quite unfamiliar to me. Then again, so are many other things that I really should know.

Many thanks and best wishes.

 

[Dale_M]

I’m a bit late responding to this post, but I’d like to add that the reason the vocation of consecrated virginity is a vocation for women is that the consecrated virgin images the Church, as bride, in her relationship with Christ. At her consecration, the virgin receives the new title, “bride of Christ,” and all of the imagery in the Rite of Consecration to a Life of Virginity is feminine, in that it is bridal. The corresponding male vocation, which images Christ, as Bridegroom of the Church, is the diocesan priesthood. Both consecrated virginity and the diocesan priesthood are lived “in the world” (but not of the world); both are lived directly under the diocesan Bishop. The consecrated virgin’s role is Marian, while the priest’s role is Petrine. I hope this is helpful.
Judith Stegman, president, United States Association of Consecrated Virgins

Judith, thank you for that explanation. I appreciate your willingness to take the time to come here and register, simply to help us out.

And thank you for your service to the Church. You are doing God’s work.
(but, you already knew that! )

 

[tjwdsssc2015]

Great!! I and many other men are off the hook, I mean really. Oh I have talked to women and some have had dream induced stimuli and well anyways. What’s the sense then if I am not considered a virgin, All that offering is just now down the toilet. Well there has got to be some grace incurred for not doing the act of intercourse and do all I could and can to keep control of my eyes, and thoughts. This argument is like you do all you can to live the teachigns of the church and of Christ and do all you could, but ,you know, you’re still going to hell. What’s the sense of trying if all the trying and sacrafice of not getting married whether or not I am going to be ordained a priest, I don’t agree sorry. I just don’t believe that. And if a woman stretched her hymen by horse riding or bicycle riding or what ever innocent incident took place that means she is not a virgin??? Many priests tell me that in fact I still retain virginity as the fact is I never had sex and I never will as a sacrafice and out of total love for our Virgin Mother. God bless Scoob.

JMJ

Thanks for your reply!

First, I meant no offense, so please do not think I did.

Second, I never said there weren’t graces that come with living chastely: many many graces come with chaste living. And like I said before, there is a difference between the physical virginity–lost with intercourse–and mental virginity–the inner purity. My main point, again, is that neither you nor I nor any other male will ever be listed among the saints with the title “virgin”. Similarly, men can never be Consecrated Virgins as such. It’s impossible. And that’s not going to change. There are women who say it’s unfair they can’t be priests just because they were born a woman; well, they can be sore about it, or they can live with it, because it’s not going to change. (I’m not a pastor yet, so I don’t have to be as pastoral…haha.)

Third, consider your argument on the inverse. What you say is that you feel frustrated because you have lived chastely your whole life and not had sex and now you aren’t called a virgin, so it all comes to naught. The inverse: one who has lived promiscuously, sleeping around, and then says “well, I’m already not a virgin, so I shouldn’t worry about saving myself for marriage.” Clearly, that would be malformed. In other words, don’t discredit your virtue!

Fourth:

I’d be interested to know of an authoritative Church source defining the argument that you’re advancing - that is to say, a Church document that details the particular physical requirements that you state are the only valid expression of virginity, and the apparent impossibility of adult male virginity.

That’s a good question, Ocarm (and thanks for your reply!). I have to say, my primary source is some seminarians last year when I was at the Katholieke Universiteit Leuven and they, in theology, discussed this issue in a class. For some reason, it became a topic of conversation at the dinner table … hahaha. So I’m not exactly sure, and I’ll see what I can find out. In the meantime, here’s how Fr. John Hardon, S.J., defines “virginity” in the Modern Catholic Dictionary:

The state of bodily integrity in either sex. This integrity may be physical or moral, and either factual or intentional. Physical virginity is sometimes defined as the absence of any sinfully experienced lustful sensation. But, strictly speaking, a person is physically a virgin unless he or she has had sexual intercourse with a person of the opposite sex. Moral virginity means the absence of any willful consent to venereal pleasure; again, strictly speaking, with a person of the opposite sex. Virginity is factual when, de facto, a person has not in the past sought or indulged in sexual pleasure; it is intentional when a person intends never to experience such pleasure, according to the previous distinctions made.

Even just based on Fr. Hardon’s definition, we see, as I mentioned above, the distinction of physical and moral (what I called mental) virginity. He identifies that it is, strictly speaking, with a person of the opposite sex, but I might argue that in the case of moral virginity, it would include self stimulation and homosexual stimulation, whereas I would be more lenient with physical virginity (personally, without getting too graphic, I would include both vaginal and anal intercourse–hetero- and homo-sexual–as possible violations of physical virginity). I would say it is nearly impossible to find a male who is a “moral, factual, and intentional virgin” according to Fr. Hardon’s definition. (And, even though I may live now with the intention etc., that does not mean I regain what was previously lost – just an example, not a personal manifestation of conscience )

Lastly, regarding the issue of the hymen stretching from horseback or bicycle riding: the hymen is more of a verification in a female’s virginity. If the hymen is not stretched, she must be a virgin. If the hymen is stretched, she might not be, but we don’t know for sure. If she has lived a life such that there is no public manifestation of promiscuity, and if she explains that she rides a bicycle often, and if she claims she has never had intercourse, I would believe that she is telling the truth. However, if it were known that at one time she engaged in sexual activity and this caused her hymen to stretch, then even if she has had a conversion and has been chaste ever since, she cannot regain her virginity. And, like I said before, there is no physiological evidence for men.

God love you!

 

[Anna_Weber]

So even though my nephew is chaste, mortifying and a virgin, he is not a virgin?

Please assist with explanation.

Anna

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

So even though my nephew is chaste, mortifying and a virgin, he is not a virgin?

Please assist with explanation.

Anna

I would talk to your local parish priest and ask him. I would not rely on just one person stating that men can’t be virgins. I myself am a virgin. As mmany priests told me it is an act of penitration that caused one to lose virginity and that is that and that is what I go on. I think your nephew is someone special and I would totaly encourage him and relish in the joy of his desires which are pure. That is awesome. God bless Scoob.

 

[Anna_Weber]

It is very dis-spiriting to read these comments. So many young men lead lives that are impure and unworthy. My nephew lives a humble, pure, servant’s life, and still some have said he cannot be a virgin even though he is as chaste and docile as one can be.

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

It is very dis-spiriting to read these comments. So many young men lead lives that are impure and unworthy. My nephew lives a humble, pure, servant’s life, and still some have said he cannot be a virgin even though he is as chaste and docile as one can be.

Exactly! He is a virgin and will remain so if he chooses. Obviously God has called him to something much more intament(SP?) Than most. Jesus the Christ our saviour is inviting him to total intemacy that is so special that it can acrue jealousy and negativity. My opinion is that he needs not listen to dis-spiriting comments but rather listen to Christ. Pray and thank God For your nephew and that he is called to such a high degree of sacrafice and love. God bless and don’t worry be happy and trust. Scoob.

 

[Anna_Weber]

Thank you for your post. In the last week, I have received some criticism, including some rude private messages, stating that Jon should grow up, live his own life and not have been guided by me. All I wanted to know was whether there were male consecrated virgins. Instead I have been criticised by persons re my nephew and also now had people arguing over whether males can or cannot be virgins.

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

Thank you for your post. In the last week, I have received some criticism, including some rude private messages, stating that Jon should grow up, live his own life and not have been guided by me. All I wanted to know was whether there were male consecrated virgins. Instead I have been criticised by persons re my nephew and also now had people arguing over whether males can or cannot be virgins.

Well I know. I lived my whole life as a virgin and will continue to. As far as nastygrams, Pray for the ones that sent them as they must have an issue with their own lives. Virginity is a pure and hard gift to keep as there are many temptations out there. As far as him getting a life or “grow” up, it takes a real grown up to take on a challenge such as virginity!!! God placed him in your life to take care of you be there for you and that is beautiful. There are times in life where you have to feel “you and me against the world” a great Helen Ready song. At anyrate fear not ,Christ is King and he is what matters and therefore encourage your nephew to stay a virgin as virginity is a great way to grow in intamacy with God and Mary the ever perpetual living loving Mother of God and our Mother as well. God bless sleep well Scoob.

 

[puzzleannie]

I dunno… I think humility is often developed not only by obedience to God but by obedience to a superior. Don’t monastic orders often place limits on their members, and direct how their talents are to be used?

.

the relationship between the older adult and the young man in OP’s example is NOT that of religious superior to membe of an order.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

So even though my nephew is chaste, mortifying and a virgin, he is not a virgin?

Please assist with explanation.

Anna

he is but cannot be a consecrated virgin, there is a technical difference.

It is very dis-spiriting to read these comments. So many young men lead lives that are impure and unworthy. My nephew lives a humble, pure, servant’s life, and still some have said he cannot be a virgin even though he is as chaste and docile as one can be.

one of the requirements of being a consecrated virgin is being female.

One of the reasons you are probably getting hate mail is that the virtues your nephew reflects are not masculine virtues, indeed they are rather feminine or at least what society perceives as feminine.

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

he is but cannot be a consecrated virgin, there is a technical difference.

one of the requirements of being a consecrated virgin is being female.

One of the reasons you are probably getting hate mail is that the virtues your nephew reflects are not masculine virtues, indeed they are rather feminine or at least what society perceives as feminine.

I am sorry but wanting to be a virgin takes a real undertaking and is not easy by any means., Any guy that wants to live his life as a virgin to me is a real man and it is a very rare and beautiful way to be intimate with Mary our Virgin Mother and her Son Jesus the Christ our loving virgin savior. The hate mail is for one uncharitable second it is mean and third immature. I think men can be virgins and Christ our lord is a virgin. That is all I need to know. I see no feminine attributes wanting to be a virgin or taking care of a family member. I did it. and what makes the metal of a man is not that he wrenches on engines or has a Harley Davidson. It is what he does with what situation God deals him. Listen not those nastygrams but rather your heart and what God tells your heart. Oh I asked about 30 different people here at the seminary some priests some were deacons and some were 4th year theology students and they feel that without the act of penetration one indeed is considered a virgin. God bless Scoob.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Another thing… With saints it is only the women that can carry the honorific title of virgin. Men can remain celibate and pure their whole life but they can not be virgins.

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

Another thing… With saints it is only the women that can carry the honorific title of virgin. Men can remain celibate and pure their whole life but they can not be virgins.

I am sorry but I and quite a few priests dissagree with that statement. I am indeed a virgin and that is that. I am not posting on this anylonger and I feel that the OP’s nephew is also a virgin and it is a wonderful way to live. God bless you all Scoob,.

 

[Dale_M]

One of the reasons you are probably getting hate mail is that the virtues your nephew reflects are not masculine virtues, indeed they are rather feminine or at least what society perceives as feminine.

Perhaps our culture perceives them as so. After all, Hollywood would not have made a movie called “The 40 Year Old Virgin” about a woman, because such situation is considered acceptable to secular culture. However, for a 40 year man to be a virgin is considered abnormal by secular culture and thus ripe for mocking.

But honestly, should we as Catholics take our guidance from Hollywood or from the Church? Are you saying that virginity, chastity, purity, modesty etc are at odds with being male?

 

[Dale_M]

the relationship between the older adult and the young man in OP’s example is NOT that of religious superior to membe of an order.

Yes, in the case of monastic submitting to his or her superior, it is a canonically ordained submission. However, I think the parallel still applies. In the case of the monk or nun following the guidance of their superior, there are formal rules and vows. Such a situation does not exist with an older family member directing a younger one. On the other hand, in the family situation so long as the younger person is not dependent they are free to leave when ever they want. They remain, and follow the direction, because they wish to. I am not sure why this would be considered objectionable.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I am sorry but wanting to be a virgin takes a real undertaking and is not easy by any means., Any guy that wants to live his life as a virgin to me is a real man and it is a very rare and beautiful way to be intimate with Mary our Virgin Mother and her Son Jesus the Christ our loving virgin savior. The hate mail is for one uncharitable second it is mean and third immature. I think men can be virgins and Christ our lord is a virgin. That is all I need to know. I see no feminine attributes wanting to be a virgin or taking care of a family member. I did it. and what makes the metal of a man is not that he wrenches on engines or has a Harley Davidson. It is what he does with what situation God deals him. Listen not those nastygrams but rather your heart and what God tells your heart. Oh I asked about 30 different people here at the seminary some priests some were deacons and some were 4th year theology students and they feel that without the act of penetration one indeed is considered a virgin. God bless Scoob.

So a man is always a virgin unless he gets screwed by another man or gets pegged?

Perhaps our culture perceives them as so. After all, Hollywood would not have made a movie called “The 40 Year Old Virgin” about a woman, because such situation is considered acceptable to secular culture. However, for a 40 year man to be a virgin is considered abnormal by secular culture and thus ripe for mocking.

But honestly, should we as Catholics take our guidance from Hollywood or from the Church? Are you saying that virginity, chastity, purity, modesty etc are at odds with being male?

The man in question is fine in a Catholic context, but not in society’s warped view of masculinity.

 

[Anna_Weber]

Some of these contributions are helpful but others are not.

There is nothing wrong for an unmarried female or a male remaining chaste, pure and living simply with their relatives. Did John not care for Mary in this way?

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

So a man is always a virgin unless he gets screwed by another man or gets pegged?
QUOTE

What does that mean? I know i said I am done with this conversation. This is the last post on this. What makes a man a virgin is one that obstains from sex and never has sex. He keeps himself chaste throughout his life from birth to natural death. He gives himself to Christ as a virgin he hever had intercourse ever. That is what a virgin is one who saves him/herself either for marrage or their whole life for God. That is a virgin. again the OP’s nephew’s choice in life should be celebrated not discouraged. This is a Catholic forum here we should expect support not uncharitable statements like the one I quoted. That is just nasty and unsupportive and probably don’t sit well with the OP. I feel the OP’s nephew should be highly respected not called a girl or feminine or any other negative comments. God bless Good bye on this thread but I fully lovingly support this kid who is living for Christ. God bless you all Scoob.