Male Ordination Only?

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Is the Catholic teaching of only ordaining men considered Sacred Tradition or a man-made tradition? Our parish deacon, whom I respect very much, was teaching us about the big T’s and little t’s of traditions. He was giving us different examples and then asked us if the male only ordination was a Tradition or tradition. I said Tradition, but he said it was a tradition, because there are writings from the early Church showing proof of women deacons.

I was confused because the Catechism says in paragraph 1577:

“Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.”

(I’m guessing that the word vir means male and not mankind.)

Can someone clarify this for me?

Also, sorry if I confused you with all the “traditions” in the first paragraph.😃
 
There is evidence of Deaconesses, and of them being ordained, in the Christian East.

There is no evidence of females being ordained to the presbyterate (priesthood) by the church.

There is plenty to suggest that Deaconesses were not exactly “female deacons”.

No female priests is Tradition. Moreover, it’s part of the deposit of the Faith elucidated by the popes.

They have hedged, however.

In the younger church, the Christian East did ordain women to the order of Deaconess. It functioned more like subdeacon than deacon, and in the east, Subdeacons were always a minor order. The Christian West, however, avoided liturgical use of deaconesses, and merely consecrated them, not ordained them.

There is also the question of whether the eastern deaconesses were given major-orders-ordination or minor-orders-ordination, and the evidence is quite varied and all over the map.

Note also that some apostolic churches still ordain minor orders (subdeacon, lector, porter, acolyte, candlebearer, cantor), and some allow women to be ordained lectors and cantors.

The Oriental Orthodox have some non-ordained deaconesses; the Coptic church uses them for evangelization of women.
Some of the Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine Rite Orthodox) have hiero-deaconesses (monastic deaconesses), who are ordained, but only to allow them to enter the sanctuary and in extreme cases, distribute communion to the other women of their monastery. (The EO does not permit women in the sanctuary during services; some places, not even for cleaning details. Some EO traditions don’t even allow non-ordained servers.)

So a historical deaconess, depending upon where and when, might have been merely consecrated, or might have been ordained; it’s theoretically possible that the deaconess might have been a major order in the East, but can’t be conclusively proven. It can be shown that they were not granted the same duties as a deacon; they were limited in liturgical use to tending the doors.
 
Just to add a side-note: Psalm 1 begins with the Latin words Beatus vir. This means “blessed is the man (who)…”, so the Church is quite clear in this. It may serve us well to realise that, historically, religions which had priestesses were all incredibly barbaric and immoral ones. 😉
 
So Blessed Pope John Paul II was telling us that a little t tradition of ordaining men was something so important that the Church has NO AUTHORITY to ordain women? And he actually issued Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to the entire Church to make that clear?

Wow, that’s some little t tradition.
 
So Blessed Pope John Paul II was telling us that a little t tradition of ordaining men was something so important that the Church has NO AUTHORITY to ordain women? And he actually issued Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to the entire Church to make that clear?

Wow, that’s some little t tradition.
Better go reread it, Tantum. He specifies sacerdotal ordination. Scerdotal = Presbyteral and/or Episcopal. It specifically excludes diaconal and minor orders.

Sacerdotal Ordination in the Catholic Encyclopedia
Ordinatio Sacerdotalis - Latin - English

HH JP II left the door ajar in re female minor orders, deaconesses, and/or female deacons, as Ordinatio Sacerdotalis doesn’t address non-sacerdotal ordinations.
 
Is the Catholic teaching of only ordaining men considered Sacred Tradition or a man-made tradition? Our parish deacon, whom I respect very much, was teaching us about the big T’s and little t’s of traditions. He was giving us different examples and then asked us if the male only ordination was a Tradition or tradition. I said Tradition, but he said it was a tradition, because there are writings from the early Church showing proof of women deacons.

I was confused because the Catechism says in paragraph 1577:

“Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.”

(I’m guessing that the word vir means male and not mankind.)

Can someone clarify this for me?

Also, sorry if I confused you with all the “traditions” in the first paragraph.😃
Thread: In Defense of a Male only Priesthood forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7812471#post7812471
 
Better go reread it, Tantum. He specifies sacerdotal ordination. Scerdotal = Presbyteral and/or Episcopal. It specifically excludes diaconal and minor orders.

newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm

HH JP II left the door ajar in re female minor orders, deaconesses, and/or female deacons, as Ordinatio Sacerdotalis doesn’t address non-sacerdotal ordinations.
Right, but I thought that was a trick question. The original question was 'ordaining only men" and really, I don’t think there is (as noted) a Western tradition where females were ever ordained as deacon (esses); minor orders are all still male, right?

What I mean is, the way it was phrased seems tricky.

Either the deacon should have said, “Non priestly ordination” or he should have said, “is the tradition of ordaining men only, OUTSIDE of sacred/priestly orders, Tradition or not?”
 
A woman can not be “ordained” in a sacramental sense. The celebration of Holy Orders is reserved exclusively to men.

A woman could be “ordained” to a non-sacramental order, but it is too confusing to use this terminology when the term ordination is so closely related to the sacramental priesthood.
 
Right, but I thought that was a trick question. The original question was 'ordaining only men" and really, I don’t think there is (as noted) a Western tradition where females were ever ordained as deacon (esses); minor orders are all still male, right?
At present, in the Catholic Churches, no women are ordained even to minor orders, save possibly certain monastic deaconesses.

Ordination was conferred on women in the early church, and even the post Nicene church. Read the second council, and you find that some heretical groups’ deaconesses are invalid and others are valid.

One can not fairly say that women have ever been ordained deacons, but one can’t rule it out, either, as certain heretical groups valid deaconesses served as deacons and were readmitted to communion as deaconesses, noting that the deaconess was akin to a subdeacon in role in the Orthodox churches (at the time, the term included the patriarchates of Rome, Byzantium, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem).

Since the OP’s deacon apparently didn’t qualify sacerdotal cheirotonia (priestly ordination), cheirotonia (major orders ordination) vs cheirothesia (minor orders ordination), the answer is clear: the church did ordain women…

It’s also equally clear that no women can be ordained Catholic priests nor bishops without a change in the nature of the papacy…
 
So there might have been women that received Holy Orders as deacons, but from what the Church teaches, they were never valid. Also, if a deacon is only one that helps serve the priests and bishops, why do they have to be ordained? It’s not like once they’re ordained they can do something special like change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. Anyone can go serve the Church, so why are they ordained?

Also, I know Christ established Holy Orders, but did he also establish the 3 degrees or were they established by the early Church?
 
The female deaconesses that are spoken of in the early Church were not deacons are we understand it. They ministered to women as it was a matter of prudence to do so. But no, they did not receive sacramental ordination.

From 1st Nicea:

“Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity” (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).
 
They were the wives of deacons not deacons.
dead wrong.

diaconissa is the form for wife of a deacon.

Do some research… the apostolic constitutions clearly show the ordination prayer and the duties of the deaconess.
 
The female deaconesses that are spoken of in the early Church were not deacons are we understand it. They ministered to women as it was a matter of prudence to do so. But no, they did not receive sacramental ordination.

From 1st Nicea:

“Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity” (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).
Canon19 does not refer to all, but ONLY to the Paulinist sect, who did not ordain their deaconesses.

“19. As concerns Paulianists who afterwards took refuge in the catholic Church, it is made a definition that they be rebaptized without fail. If any of them in the past have been covered in the clergy under examination as to whether they appear to be blameless and irreproachable, after being rebaptized let them be ordained by a Bishop of the catholic Church. But if the investigation finds them unfitted, let them be deposed. Likewise as concerning deaconesses, and all those who are embraced by the Canon in any way and are being examined, the same form shall be observed. We have referred to the deaconesses who have been examined under cover of the habit, since they have neither any claim to appointment to any order, so that they are to be examined without fail among the laymen.”

The whole canon is about the Paulinists, not the Catholics. Note that the Paulinist clergy as a whole were invalid.
 
Y’know, I think there are a lot of things more important than the ordination of women. Being a woman who would have*** loved*** to be a priest, I feel I have the right to speak on the subject.

I think it is much more important for Catholics, especially in the USA, to realize that the Church is not a democracy. The doctrine was laid down by God. Yes, there are lots of problems…we are sinners, not saints.

The biggest problem is PRIDE. It manifests itself in all kinds of disobedience—ordained, lay, religious. Cafeteria style approach to what one will believe, liturgical committees changing liturgy to fit what they want, people waxing eloquently, though foolishly about “modernizing” the Church. People speaking as though we are so sophisticated that we can do away with concepts like sin, obedience, repentance, purgatory, the Real Presence.

Let me tell you that we as people don’t know jack about the Truth if we are arguing for our own interpretations—like if we get enough votes on our side, we win. Jesus won over 2000 years ago. He said that HE would build His Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

So go ahead and bang your heads against the wall. God wins.
 
We have to be very careful when reading the ancient texts. Women have never been ordained to the Order of Deacon. The deaconess of the ancient writings is not in Holy Orders.

The deacon, as we know him is a cleric in every sense of the word. He is as much a cleric as is a priest and a bishop. He is not a layman. He has undergone an ontological change. This is Tradition with an upper case T.

It is an error to think that the Order of Deacon is a minor order. It is not and has never been. The deacons were the right hand men of the bishops. That wording is still retained in the rite of ordination in the Latin Church. They are to assist the bishop, not the parish priest.

If you notice when the pope or any bishop celebrates a mass, the man at his right is always a deacon, not the Vicar General nor the Chancellor. The place of honor belongs to the deacon. It will always be the deacon who will proclaim the Gospel at every episcopal mass. None of this was ever allowed to the deaconess.

The Order of Deacon is also the ordinary minister for funerals, weddings, baptisms and the distribution of Holy Communion. It is also the ordinary minister for the proclamation of the Gospel and preaching. This why St. Dominic insisted that all of his friars be deacons or priests, because his order is an Order of Preachers. At the time, the only layman who were allowed to preach were the Franciscans. That privilege had been taken away from other lay groups because of heresy. But it was a privilege to preach, not a right and it continues to be so. For the deacon, preaching is not a privilege.

The sacramental ordination of women has never been part of the Apostolic Churches. What gets confusing is the language, because when we translate it from the early Greek and Latin, to ordain has two meanings. One is sacramental and the other is apostolic.

In the sacrament, there is the imposition of hands by a bishop and the transmission of the Holy Spirit. This is only available to deacons, presbyters and bishops. These have always been men.

The other use of ordain is to command, to establish, to commission. For those who speak Spanish, this may be very clear. The word “ordernar” is used to mean sacramental ordination, to order, to commission and to send. The meaning is extrapolated by context.

Bl. John Paul is correct. The Church does not have, nor has ever had, the authority to ordain women.

Even the minor orders, which in the Latin Church are known as the Lay Ministries, may only be conferred on men. This tradition has existed since about the year 200.

For example, I’m a Lector and Acolyte. Notice the uppercase letters. It’s a ministry that cannot be taken away once it’s conferred. The nice lady who reads at mass is a lector or a reader. The nice kid who serves at mass is an altar server, not an acolyte. These are temporary services that this person lends to the local parish under the discretion of the pastor. Whereas the Lector and Acolyte functions in any diocese under the jurisdiction of the bishop or if he’s a religious, under the jurisdiction of the Major Superior of men. Major Superiors of women cannot authorize a Lector or Acolyte to function as such even in their own convents and monasteries. It must always be authorized by either a bishop or a male religious superior. These are very ancient traditions that date back to the early Church.

This minor orders/ministries are not part of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. That’s why the Latin Church opted to rename them as ministries. There was a misunderstanding that a man who was tonsured or who was a sub-deacon was a cleric. The truth is that all male religious who made vows of chastity were tonsured as were women religious. And sub-deacons were not clerics, because they did not receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. They remained in the canonical lay state until they were ordained deacons.

There is also a difference between the canonical lay state and the laity. But that’s a topic for another thread.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It is important to note that the Diaconate does differ by Rite.

While what Brother Jay states is the norm for the Latin Rite…
The Order of Deacon is also the ordinary minister for funerals, weddings, baptisms and the distribution of Holy Communion. It is also the ordinary minister for the proclamation of the Gospel and preaching.
The Deacon in the Byzantine Rite is not the ordinary minister for weddings or baptisms.

Baptism is done along with Chrismation (Confirmation) and First Eucharist so only the priest and bishop may do so.

Weddings in the Byzantine Rite require the blessing of a priest or bishop to be valid, so again the deacon is not an ordinary minister.

Also in the Byzantine Rite the Deacon can only bless as a layman, he can not do a priestly blessing as the Deacon in the Latin Rite can.

Having said that, the Deacon does proclaim the Gospel and receives communion in the hand.

The Diaconate is a major Holy Order.
 
It is important to note that the Diaconate does differ by Rite.

While what Brother Jay states is the norm for the Latin Rite…

The Deacon in the Byzantine Rite is not the ordinary minister for weddings or baptisms.

Baptism is done along with Chrismation (Confirmation) and First Eucharist so only the priest and bishop may do so.

Weddings in the Byzantine Rite require the blessing of a priest or bishop to be valid, so again the deacon is not an ordinary minister.

Also in the Byzantine Rite the Deacon can only bless as a layman, he can not do a priestly blessing as the Deacon in the Latin Rite can.

Having said that, the Deacon does proclaim the Gospel and receives communion in the hand.

The Diaconate is a major Holy Order.
Thanks Brother 😃

I was hoping no one would bring up the Oriental Canons. These folks are confused about this as it is.

YOU deal with the can of worms concerning the Oriental Canons and the reasons for the differences. :yup:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The greek terms cheirotonia and cheirothesia are rather unambigiously major and minor, respectively. Both have been used for deaconesses; cheirothesia has been used for minor orders in the east from the beginning, including deaconesses; and cheirotonia only for bishops, priests, deacons and deaconesses. In the case of deaconesses, inconsistently.

With all due respect to the good Brothers, they, too, need to reread Ordinatio Sacerdotalis… it makes absolutely no reference to deacons. HH JP II was asked about women and the deaconate, and had always responded with non-definitive no, as opposed to the definitive no for the presbyterate in OS.

Remembering also: “sacerdotalis” has never referred to deacons.
 
The greek terms cheirotonia and cheirothesia are rather unambigiously major and minor, respectively. Both have been used for deaconesses; cheirothesia has been used for minor orders in the east from the beginning, including deaconesses; and cheirotonia only for bishops, priests, deacons and deaconesses. In the case of deaconesses, inconsistently.

With all due respect to the good Brothers, they, too, need to reread Ordinatio Sacerdotalis… it makes absolutely no reference to deacons. HH JP II was asked about women and the deaconate, and had always responded with non-definitive no, as opposed to the definitive no for the presbyterate in OS.

Remembering also: “sacerdotalis” has never referred to deacons.
Sacerdotalis refers to the priesthood. The priesthood has three orders: deacon, presbyter and bishop. It is true that Sacerdotalis spends a lot of time on the order of presbyter, because that was the burning question on the table. No one was asking to ordain women deacons.

The extreme left and the Episcopal community was pushing women presbyters. We need to pay attention to the question on the table at the time. The fact that the Order of Deacon was not explicitly addressed does not mean that it is open for discussion.

Catholics need to be very careful not to try to set the agenda for discussion that the Holy See does not want to have. I’ve always said that the Holy See is like a good mother. I will never forget my own mother who often said, “I’m not interested in discussing that with you.” We backed off really fast. We knew that if we pushed it, we were going to be in big trouble. The same thing happens with the Holy See. There are some points that are best if we not push them, because there are spiritual and moral consequences if we do. The worse one being the division that we introduce into the Church. That’s serious stuff and we don’t want to be guilty of doing that.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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