Male Ordination Only?

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What we know for sure, that at present
  • only males can be ordained ad deacons (either permanent or transitory)
  • when Blessed John Paul II declared that the Church have no authorization to ordain females to presbyterate and episcopate he was careful not to mention the diaconate
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

The Catechis and Canon Law represent the present state.

The consequence of this is that if
  • now someone claims that women can be ordained as deaconesses, that claim is schismatic, against the order of the Church
  • now someone claims that it is unchangeable divine Law that no deaconesses can be ordained, that claim in unfounded
  • in the future the Church changes her mind and starts to ordain deaconesses, then claim that the Church has no right to do so would be schismatic
The question is open.

We know that in the ancient church there were women called deaconesses, who were distinct from the consecrated virgins and widows. The deaconesses had ecclesiastical functions, including administering the Sacrament of Last Unction for other women (ointing the limb)

We know also that during the time only the priesthood was reserved as permanent order, consequently the institution of deaconesses disappeared.

We know also that the permanent deaconate (for males) was revived the the XXI Ecumenical council, thus the disappearance is not divine law.

The Church have the binding and loosing power, and in sacred things only the hierarchy has this power, not scholars, not the lower clergy, not any laymen.
 
Aramis said:
dead wrong.

diaconissa is the form for wife of a deacon.

Do some research… the apostolic constitutions clearly show the ordination prayer and the duties of the deaconess.
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They were diferent then deacons today and they were not ordained in any way shape or form. “They ministered to women.” They were NOT deacons like deacons today though.
Mikayla
 
Aramis said:
dead wrong.

diaconissa is the form for wife of a deacon.

Do some research… the apostolic constitutions clearly show the ordination prayer and the duties of the deaconess.
Click to expand...
They were diferent then deacons today and they were not ordained in any way shape or form. “They ministered to women.” They were NOT deacons like deacons today though.
Mikayla
 
The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod ordains males only to the office of pastor because of the words of St. Paul:Although some Protestant churches ordain women to the
pastoral office, this is a 20th-century innovation. For more
than 1,900 years, there has been nearly unanimous faithfulness
to the Word of God,given through the Apostle Paul, that
women are not to serve as pastors (see 1 Cor. 14:33-35, 37; 1
Tim.2:11-12; 1 Tim.3:1-2 and Titus 1:5-6).
The LC-MS has a Deaconess program for woman to work in church schools or mission fields.:signofcross:
 
Lucky10279 said:
They were diferent then deacons today and they were not ordained in any way shape or form. “They ministered to women.” They were NOT deacons like deacons today though.
Mikayla
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I suggest you go and read the primary sources, namely, the apostolic canons, and cure your ignorance.

They were in fact ordained; the only question is whether the Deaconess was major or minor order. The eastern churches in union still ordain minor orders, even tho’ Rome does not. Minor orders do not confer a permanent change in the nature of the soul, but are still clergy.
 
Aramis said:
I suggest you go and read the primary sources, namely, the apostolic canons, and cure your ignorance.

They were in fact ordained; the only question is whether the Deaconess was major or minor order. The eastern churches in union still ordain minor orders, even tho’ Rome does not. Minor orders do not confer a permanent change in the nature of the soul, but are still clergy.
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I’m not so sure about the clergy part. I would have to look it up. It’s been so long since we had them in the Latin Church. I believe that you were not a cleric until you were tonsured.

Of course, in my community that was a moot point, because every friar was tonsured as part of the investiture when you became a novice and only 40% were ordained. The other 60% were not. Our clerics did not have the rite of tonsure. I believe they became clerics when they became sub-deacons.

The next time I’m at the library I’ll pull one of the old canon law commentaries.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
sing4joy said:
The biggest problem is PRIDE. It manifests itself in all kinds of disobedience—ordained, lay, religious. Cafeteria style approach to what one will believe, liturgical committees changing liturgy to fit what they want, people waxing eloquently, though foolishly about “modernizing” the Church. People speaking as though we are so sophisticated that we can do away with concepts like sin, obedience, repentance, purgatory, the Real Presence.
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Indeed. And it is very widespread throughout the Church. I was made to feel unwelcome by my Bible study leader at my parish when I indicated that I was in agreement with Church teaching about male ordination. Since I am a woman, I think it was assumed that I was itching to change the Church. On the contrary, I have found freedom and beauty and truth by embracing the fullness of teachings of the RCC.
 
Lucky10279 said:
They were diferent then deacons today and they were not ordained in any way shape or form. “They ministered to women.” They were NOT deacons like deacons today though.
Mikayla
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Somewhere along my path I was taught one of the steps on initiation into the early Church required nudity. Deaconesses assisted/led the women.
 
sing4joy said:
Y’know, I think there are a lot of things more important than the ordination of women. Being a woman who would have*** loved*** to be a priest, I feel I have the right to speak on the subject.

I think it is much more important for Catholics, especially in the USA, to realize that the Church is not a democracy. The doctrine was laid down by God. Yes, there are lots of problems…we are sinners, not saints.

The biggest problem is PRIDE. It manifests itself in all kinds of disobedience—ordained, lay, religious. Cafeteria style approach to what one will believe, liturgical committees changing liturgy to fit what they want, people waxing eloquently, though foolishly about “modernizing” the Church. People speaking as though we are so sophisticated that we can do away with concepts like sin, obedience, repentance, purgatory, the Real Presence.

Let me tell you that we as people don’t know jack about the Truth if we are arguing for our own interpretations—like if we get enough votes on our side, we win. Jesus won over 2000 years ago. He said that HE would build His Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

So go ahead and bang your heads against the wall. God wins.
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👍,
and as a woman who has a little experience with this issue, you can see a response I made to another thread
 
Lucky10279 said:
They were diferent then deacons today and they were not ordained in any way shape or form. “They ministered to women.” They were NOT deacons like deacons today though.
Mikayla
Click to expand...
We had to suppose that in the antique text similar name means similar thing, not something essentially different, unless otherwise is proven.

Men ministered the Last unction to men, female deaconesses to women. The point is that they administered sacraments, reserved to those having orders.

The fact described in the Apostolic Constitution that women ministered women in itself does not deny that the deaconesses received Holy Orders.
 
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