R
- Status
And you still don’t see the problem?
R
Reuben_J
Guest
10. If, as a result of the process of discernment, undertaken with “humility, discretion and love for the Church and her teaching, in a sincere search for God’s will and a desire to make a more perfect response to it” (AL 300), a separated or divorced person who is living in a new relationship manages, with an informed and enlightened conscience, to acknowledge and believe that he or she are at peace with God, he or she cannot be precluded from participating in the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist (see AL, notes 336 and 351).
You have a problem with that condition?
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Reuben_J
Guest
Rather than picking up a sentence in isolation, you have to read the document as a whole and in context. It is good to reflect on it for greater understanding.
And I presume you have done so.
And still you don’t see the disaster that is this document?
Come on. Give me the orthdox reading instead of the usual read it in context comment.
You really don’t see the problem?
It allows those in an objective state of adultery to receive communion and absolution without an intention to amend.
This document does violence to both Church law and Church teaching.
It is wrong and scandalous.
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10gr8kids
Guest
It seems quite ironic that I was at a Protestant service this past weekend and the minister preached on Matthew 19. He mocked the Catholic teaching about marriage only being valid in certain cases and the annulment process to determine validity of previous marriages. He spoke about how he used to interpret Matthew 19 wrong, but now he understands it. (How we are suppose to know now that he has it right-he did not explain). He told of a sad story about a woman who had married young and came to him for advice. Her first marriage had ended in divorce and now she was married to another man. They had children, were attending church, and now wonders if she is in a scriptural marriage. Anyhow, he eventually used the same logic as the above quote to convince himself and her that if she felt at peace that was the Holy Spirit telling her she was in a scriptural marriage.
I had to wonder to myself where this line of reasoning stops. What about people in homosexual relationships who feel at peace? doctors who perform abortions that feel at peace? Are they doing what is right in the eyes of God because they have convinced themselves they are not sinning?
I also had to wonder if only John the Baptist had been as enlightened as this preacher…he could have saved his life by saying the very same thing this preacher did.
G
goout
Guest
It seems to me that "peace’ might be misunderstood here.
Being at peace with God is not a personal belief gained through an individualist effort of discernment. Yes, it does of course involve the individual and his/her disposition before God. But true peace is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Peace is a fruit of the Holy Spirit only when it is “in Christ”. We are “in Christ” when we are conformed to his Body. The Holy Spirit unifies the faithful, it doesn’t advocate for the supremacy of individual conscience.
That is the point of Church doctrine: to conform the faithful to charity as one unified body, and so bear fruit in the Spirit.
Being at peace with God is not a personal belief gained through an individualist effort of discernment. Yes, it does of course involve the individual and his/her disposition before God. But true peace is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Peace is a fruit of the Holy Spirit only when it is “in Christ”. We are “in Christ” when we are conformed to his Body. The Holy Spirit unifies the faithful, it doesn’t advocate for the supremacy of individual conscience.
That is the point of Church doctrine: to conform the faithful to charity as one unified body, and so bear fruit in the Spirit.
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Reuben_J
Guest
sigh
Apparently you have not read the document deeply. Nothing is said about homosexual, etc.
What was said was to abstain from conjugal act. To love the Church and her teaching.
If one wants to respond to God in humility and to sincerely love the Church and her teaching, would one not make right one’s situation before coming to Holy Communion, while the priest in the long process of discernment to grant annulment?
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Reuben_J
Guest
What I can see from the document is that the priest should be compassionate to the different and painful situation of each individual couple and for them to make their situation right. How they do that, they must follow the Church’s teaching.
Thus it says about living like a brother and sister; and to go for Confession. And to request for annulment.
You are saying, actually, that while they sin and be at peace with their sins, they can still receive Communion. That is not what the document says.
B
Bookcat
Guest
rumor rumor rumor
Lets not indulge them
Lets not indulge them
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Reuben_J
Guest
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3_Dog_Night
Guest
In seeking to understand, I would like to put AL to a hypothetical situation. Let’s say …
I am a woman who was in an abusive marriage. Both my (ex)husband and I were Catholic and we were married in the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, he beat me to the point that I ended up in the ICU fighting for my life. After that incident, I realized that if I stayed with him, he would kill me with that next beating. I took our two children and I left him. I later divorced him and I started my life over again. Five years ago, I met a wonderful man and I married him in a civil ceremony. He is loving, kind and generous and is a true father to my children. We now have a stable and solid family and a loving and healthy relationship. Yes, my knight in shining armor and I share the same bed (i.e., we are sexually intimate).
I now want to make things right with my Catholic faith; I spoke with the priest at my local parish and at his urging I completed all the paperwork and the application process for an annulment. For reasons I simply cannot understand, my annulment was denied. My knight in shining armor was never married before, so there would be no need for him to do anything – this is his first marriage. I would like very much to receive the sacraments of the church. My husband is willing to convert to Catholicism. We would renew our (civil) vows in the Catholic Church. We would be a Catholic family; and yes, we very much want to have additional children. In my heart of hearts, I feel as if I have done nothing wrong to divorce a man who nearly killed me. The annulment should have been granted but wasn’t. I do not understand why communion and confession would be denied to me.
I am hopeful the language of AL would allow my parish priest to accompany my husband and I in kindness and in mercy. My conscience is clear, and my husband says that his conscience is clear. I do not understand how we could be “sinning” against God or against His commandments. What advice can you give me as to how AL applies to us?
I am a woman who was in an abusive marriage. Both my (ex)husband and I were Catholic and we were married in the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, he beat me to the point that I ended up in the ICU fighting for my life. After that incident, I realized that if I stayed with him, he would kill me with that next beating. I took our two children and I left him. I later divorced him and I started my life over again. Five years ago, I met a wonderful man and I married him in a civil ceremony. He is loving, kind and generous and is a true father to my children. We now have a stable and solid family and a loving and healthy relationship. Yes, my knight in shining armor and I share the same bed (i.e., we are sexually intimate).
I now want to make things right with my Catholic faith; I spoke with the priest at my local parish and at his urging I completed all the paperwork and the application process for an annulment. For reasons I simply cannot understand, my annulment was denied. My knight in shining armor was never married before, so there would be no need for him to do anything – this is his first marriage. I would like very much to receive the sacraments of the church. My husband is willing to convert to Catholicism. We would renew our (civil) vows in the Catholic Church. We would be a Catholic family; and yes, we very much want to have additional children. In my heart of hearts, I feel as if I have done nothing wrong to divorce a man who nearly killed me. The annulment should have been granted but wasn’t. I do not understand why communion and confession would be denied to me.
I am hopeful the language of AL would allow my parish priest to accompany my husband and I in kindness and in mercy. My conscience is clear, and my husband says that his conscience is clear. I do not understand how we could be “sinning” against God or against His commandments. What advice can you give me as to how AL applies to us?
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10gr8kids
Guest
I did not imply that the document said anything at all about homosexuality. What I was actually commenting on was the Protestant preacher’s sermon, and how he used the logic of being at “peace” as a sign of what is right and wrong on divorce and remarriage. Is it not logical to wonder what other issues this might extend to?
Obviously if you are seeing in this document where a couple has to abstain from the conjugal act to receive communion, I am not reading it closely for I haven’t seen this. I pray you are right, but this has already been the case. In fact, a couple can abstain from conjugal relations and receive communion whether or not an annulment is being sought or even granted.
P
Pulvis
Guest
It does not stop. It will slide down the slope to include Gay unions and every other abnormal type of “union” that can be dreamed up.
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10gr8kids
Guest
I wanted to add, but it was to late to edit my op…
In fact, a couple can abstain from conjugal relations and receive communion whether or not an annulment is being sought or even granted.
As to the bolded part…At least that is how it’s been in my little part of the world. Maybe I am wrong to think that is how it’s been elsewhere, and maybe they are just starting to implement this discipline. Thus the need for new documents stating this.
- Status