Man and His Soul/Spirit

[tonyfish58]

This question was asked in another thread and deserves to be discussed on its own merit, it is a very interesting and important subject

no human soul has ever existed without a physical body.

our Creator created human beings to have both a body and a soul.

I have no idea why people think that a human being’s ultimate destiny is to exist without the body that was created at the same time his or her soul was created.

perhaps someone else can explain why some people think that our ultimate destiny is to exist without a body?

I will start the discussion with a thought from the Baha’i Writings, The Bahá’í writings affirm that

"the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel."

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, 2d rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1976), pp. 158-59.

I feel this should be a stimulating topic and I hope we can all learn from each others views

Regards Tony

 

[littlestsouls2]

Hi Tony,

My belief on this topic is taken from Scripture:

[The body] is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory: It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power: It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: The first man, Adam, was made into a living soul: the last Adam a quickening spirit. (1 Corinthians 15: 42-45)

Fr. Boudreaux writes: "Rising a spiritual body does not mean that the bodies of the just shall
be changed into spirits. Our bodies, which are material by nature, must remain so forever. They must rise in conformity to the glorious body of Jesus Christ, “who will reform the body of our lowness made like to the body of His glory.” And what kind of a body had Jesus Christ, when he arose triumphant over death and hell? It was certainly His own material body of real flesh and blood, and not a spirit. When he appeared to his apostles, as St. Luke tells us, “they, being troubled and affrighted, supposed that they saw a spirit. And He said to them, Why are you troubled, and why do these thoughts arise in your hearts? See my hands and feet, that it is I my self; handle and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me have.” (Luke 24:37). Assuredly, here is a true body of flesh and blood and bone, and not a spiritual one in the sense that matter does or can become a spirit. It is the very same body in which He suffered such terrible tortures and agonies during his bitter passion.

So shall we rise on the last day, in our own material body of flesh and blood, with every organ and member glorified and made conformable to the body of Jesus Christ. According to the teachings of St. Thomas, our bodies shall rise of the same nature as they now are. For glory does not change or destroy nature, but perfects it."

Take care.

 

[GEddie]

The Soul’s ultimate destiny is not existence without a body.

“Without the body, the soul is but an empty wind; without the soul, the body is but a senseless frame.”

Although death will end these bodies, we will be fitted with a “spiritual body” (Greek: pneumatikon soma) which unlike our natural or human body, is designed for everlasting life.

ICXC NIKA!

 

[tonyfish58]

Hi Tony,

My belief on this topic is taken from Scripture:

[The body] is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory: It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power: It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: The first man, Adam, was made into a living soul: the last Adam a quickening spirit. (1 Corinthians 15: 42-45)

Fr. Boudreaux writes: "Rising a spiritual body does not mean that the bodies of the just shall
be changed into spirits. Our bodies, which are material by nature, must remain so forever. They must rise in conformity to the glorious body of Jesus Christ, “who will reform the body of our lowness made like to the body of His glory.” And what kind of a body had Jesus Christ, when he arose triumphant over death and hell? It was certainly His own material body of real flesh and blood, and not a spirit. When he appeared to his apostles, as St. Luke tells us, “they, being troubled and affrighted, supposed that they saw a spirit. And He said to them, Why are you troubled, and why do these thoughts arise in your hearts? See my hands and feet, that it is I my self; handle and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me have.” (Luke 24:37). Assuredly, here is a true body of flesh and blood and bone, and not a spiritual one in the sense that matter does or can become a spirit. It is the very same body in which He suffered such terrible tortures and agonies during his bitter passion.

So shall we rise on the last day, in our own material body of flesh and blood, with every organ and member glorified and made conformable to the body of Jesus Christ. According to the teachings of St. Thomas, our bodies shall rise of the same nature as they now are. For glory does not change or destroy nature, but perfects it."

Take care.

littlestsouls2 - Thank you for the reply

Have you considered this passage as well

John 6:63 - “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you–they are full of the Spirit and life”.

Baha’u’llah has asked this question of us

“Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form When within thee the universe is folded?”

The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys, “The Valley of Wonderment”, quoting ‘Alí , p. 34

Linkl to source of quote - investigatereality.org/RealitySoul.htm

It could be that we are more than we think we are!

I for one think that to be so.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

The Soul’s ultimate destiny is not existence without a body.

“Without the body, the soul is but an empty wind; without the soul, the body is but a senseless frame.”

Although death will end these bodies, we will be fitted with a “spiritual body” (Greek: pneumatikon soma) which unlike our natural or human body, is designed for everlasting life.

ICXC NIKA!

GEddie - Thank you for sharing that view re the Soul

Could it be that it is more then we think? The Baha’i Faith has many explanations on the nature of the Soul and its Progress in the worlds of God.

This may be of interest

“…Verily I say, the human soul is, in its essence, one of the signs of God, a mystery among His mysteries. It is one of the mighty signs of the Almighty, the harbinger that proclaimeth the reality of all the worlds of God. Within it lieth concealed that which the world is now utterly incapable of apprehending…”

Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Selection LXXXII, p. 160

Link to source of Quote - investigatereality.org/RealitySoul.htm

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Nick44]

The Soul’s ultimate destiny is not existence without a body

Many find it hard to imagine how we could possibly ‘get around’ without a body, but Baha’u’llah points to the world we inhabit in our dreams to show how it can happen.

"Indeed, O Brother, if we ponder each created thing, we shall witness a myriad perfect wisdoms and learn a myriad new and wondrous truths. One of the created phenomena is the dream. Behold how many secrets are deposited therein, how many wisdoms treasured up, how many worlds concealed. Observe, how thou art asleep in a dwelling, and its doors are barred; on a sudden thou findest thyself in a far-off city, which thou enterest without moving thy feet or wearying thy body; without using thine eyes, thou seest; without taxing thine ears, thou hearest; without a tongue, thou speakest. And perchance when ten years are gone, thou wilt witness in the outer world the very things thou hast dreamed tonight.

Now there are many wisdoms to ponder in the dream, which none but the people of this Valley can comprehend in their true elements. First, what is this world, where without eye and ear and hand and tongue a man puts all of these to use? Second, how is it that in the outer world thou seest today the effect of a dream, when thou didst vision it in the world of sleep some ten years past? Consider the difference between these two worlds and the mysteries which they conceal, that thou mayest attain to divine confirmations and heavenly discoveries and enter the regions of holiness.

God, the Exalted, hath placed these signs in men, to the end that philosophers may not deny the mysteries of the life beyond nor belittle that which hath been promised them. For some hold to reason and deny whatever the reason comprehendeth not, and yet weak minds can never grasp the matters which we have related, but only the Supreme, Divine Intelligence can comprehend them."

Baha’u’llah, The Seven Valleys, p. 32-33

 

[GEddie]

Many find it hard to imagine how we could possibly ‘get around’ without a body, but Baha’u’llah points to the world we inhabit in our dreams to show how it can happen.

"Indeed, O Brother, if we ponder each created thing, we shall witness a myriad perfect wisdoms and learn a myriad new and wondrous truths. One of the created phenomena is the dream. Behold how many secrets are deposited therein, how many wisdoms treasured up, how many worlds concealed. Observe, how thou art asleep in a dwelling, and its doors are barred; on a sudden thou findest thyself in a far-off city, which thou enterest without moving thy feet or wearying thy body; without using thine eyes, thou seest; without taxing thine ears, thou hearest; without a tongue, thou speakest. And perchance when ten years are gone, thou wilt witness in the outer world the very things thou hast dreamed tonight.

Now there are many wisdoms to ponder in the dream, which none but the people of this Valley can comprehend in their true elements. First, what is this world, where without eye and ear and hand and tongue a man puts all of these to use? Second, how is it that in the outer world thou seest today the effect of a dream, when thou didst vision it in the world of sleep some ten years past? Consider the difference between these two worlds and the mysteries which they conceal, that thou mayest attain to divine confirmations and heavenly discoveries and enter the regions of holiness.

God, the Exalted, hath placed these signs in men, to the end that philosophers may not deny the mysteries of the life beyond nor belittle that which hath been promised them. For some hold to reason and deny whatever the reason comprehendeth not, and yet weak minds can never grasp the matters which we have related, but only the Supreme, Divine Intelligence can comprehend them."

Baha’u’llah, The Seven Valleys, p. 32-33

Amigo,

Since you are Bahai, while I am Roman Catholic, obviously we are going to disagree widely on several things. That is understandable.

But in regard to dreams as an example of bodiless existence, there are two things to point out:

1). When you “travel” anywhere in a dream, you are not in fact there, you are just enjoying moving pictures in your head. These are a wonderful gift from God, so we don’t have to look at the darkness while asleep. But it is not the same as using your limbs to go someplace in your body!

2). A dreamer is still using his or her live head (the brain being even more active then than in wakefulness). This requires that there is of course, breath in the lungs, and blood going through the head. I.e., dreaming tells us nothing about “being without a body!”

In any case, our LORD not only taught, HE demonstrated that the human soul’s destiny is not existence without a body!

ICXC NIKA!

 

[Nick44]

Amigo,

Since you are Bahai, while I am Roman Catholic, obviously we are going to disagree widely on several things. That is understandable.!

True that, but it is a fascinating subject that all, at one time or another, have pondered.

What is also understandable is that describing the conditions under which we will exist in a non-physical, spiritual reality is beyond words or understanding. The Baha’i Revelation has revealed more about the next world(s) than has ever been revealed before. That we will have ‘bodies’ of some sort, but that these will be composed of the elements of the heavenly realm and not of a corporeal flesh and blood type. Also, that our form will change depending upon our spiritual state.

It is interesting to contemplate, but in the end…we just don’t know (and couldn’t understand, anyway) all the particulars.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation. Such an existence is a contingent and not an absolute existence, inasmuch as the former is preceded by a cause, whilst the latter is independent thereof. Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth.” Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, p. 157

 

[Servant19]

Amigo,

Since you are Bahai, while I am Roman Catholic, obviously we are going to disagree widely on several things. That is understandable.

But in regard to dreams as an example of bodiless existence, there are two things to point out:

1). When you “travel” anywhere in a dream, you are not in fact there, you are just enjoying moving pictures in your head. These are a wonderful gift from God, so we don’t have to look at the darkness while asleep. But it is not the same as using your limbs to go someplace in your body!

2). A dreamer is still using his or her live head (the brain being even more active then than in wakefulness). This requires that there is of course, breath in the lungs, and blood going through the head. I.e., dreaming tells us nothing about “being without a body!”

In any case, our LORD not only taught, HE demonstrated that the human soul’s destiny is not existence without a body!

ICXC NIKA!

Dear brother GE,

I think it is only a matter of time before science actually proves that consciousness actually does not come from the brain. In fact it actually comes from a source EXTERNAL from the physical body.

If you have time look into the breakthrough work of Sam Parnia working at the New York State hospital emergency dept, and the multitudes of near death experiences which he has studied.

The body is absolutely dead yet sight is better than ever
Plus they are actually seeing the surgeons operating on their bodies , in live time



.

 

[GEddie]

Dear brother GE,

I think it is only a matter of time before science actually proves that consciousness actually does not come from the brain. In fact it actually comes from a source EXTERNAL from the physical body.

If you have time look into the breakthrough work of Sam Parnia working at the New York State hospital emergency dept, and the multitudes of near death experiences which he has studied.

The body is absolutely dead yet sight is better than ever
Plus they are actually seeing the surgeons operating on their bodies , in live time

.

The fact they came back shows the bodies were not “absolutely dead.”

ICXC NIKA

 

[Servant19]

The fact they came back shows the bodies were not “absolutely dead.”

ICXC NIKA

Hello GEddie.

I think a perspective to explore is that a large number of these near death experiences involve full brain death, especially those that are dead for longer than 1 hour or so…
One of the cases to occur, with full brain death, but seeming ability to see everything going on, was Pam Reynolds:

near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html



.

 

[tonyfish58]

I find this passage full of promise, but it is a promise that all the Prophets of God have given unto man, Our Deeds must attest to our Faith!

It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…

Link to quote - bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-soul.html

God bless all with strength of Faith in Deeds and Action! Regards Tony