Man:Totally Depraved or Wounded?

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Athanasiy said:
Yes.
Veneration is not Idolatry.
In the chain of arguments , I understand the Catholic Truth better.

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin .

May I try to prove it Biblically ?
If not Biblically, where then we can find the Sources of this controversial Statement ?
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Before you tried, I would ask you a question.

Do you believe that man is born with the original sin of Adam?

If yes, do you believe that nature is totally depraved or just wounded?

This would affect any dialogue on the subject. Possibly it would be more appropriate in a thread all its own?

God bless,
Maria
 
Because of the teaching about the sinfulness of man , I had a little problem , how Jesus could be totally without sin.
But , I believe he was without sin, though in sinful body, otherwise the Incarnation is not Incarnation, He revealed the God in the sinful human body.
But in the sinful human body.
Yes, I believe that we are not just wounded, we are totally depraved.
Like my favorite writer says;
  • The Man towards man is wolf.
  • If the people would know each other better,they would hate each other more.
    The Man not just damaged by sin, the man is sin’s invalid.
    Yes , our nature is totally deprived, we are not just wounded by sin, but we have got the sin of Adam , and taking part in his crime.
    I believe in this truth.
    That’s the reason , I am in full agreement with Catholic Realism.
    I am not Pacifist.
    Many Christian Denominations forgot or misapplied that virtue.
    I mean, the forgotten Christian Virtue of Realism.
Its interesting, what you following, asking this question.

Don’t You want to tell me that Jesus had the presents of sin, but overcame it, and Mary did the same ? 🙂
 
Athanasiy said:
Because of the teaching about the sinfulness of man , I had a little problem , how Jesus could be totally without sin.
But , I believe he was without sin, though in sinful body, otherwise the Incarnation is not Incarnation, He revealed the God in the sinful human body.
But in the sinful human body.
Yes, I believe that we are not just wounded, we are totally depraved.
Like my favorite writer says;
  • The Man towards man is wolf.
  • If the people would know each other better,they would hate each other more.
    The Man not just damaged by sin, the man is sin’s invalid.
    Yes , our nature is totally deprived, we are not just wounded by sin, but we have got the sin of Adam , and taking part in his crime.
    I believe in this truth.
    That’s the reason , I am in full agreement with Catholic Realism.
    I am not Pacifist.
    Many Christian Denominations forgot or misapplied that virtue.
    I mean, the forgotten Christian Virtue of Realism.
Its interesting, what you following, asking this question.

Don’t You want to tell me that Jesus had the presents of sin, but overcame it, and Mary did the same ? 🙂
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Hmm. I am not sure I completely understand your post.

And I am not sure I am the best person to get into this discussion with you, but I will try:)

You say you believe he was in a sinful body and you believe that man is totally depraved.

I (and the Catholic Church) disagree with this. We believe that man’s nature is just wounded. The human body is not sinful just because it is the human body. I disagree that God incarnate was in a sinful human body. He was fully human, but since man is not totally depraved, it was not a sinful human body.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act. 405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice,** but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded** in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

I really think we should start a new thread devoted to original sin and man’s wounded nature versus a totally depraved one as it is off topic to Mary, but crucial to the understanding of Mary and her immaculate conception.

As well as there are others out there who will be able to discuss this subject with you much more intelligently than I can. I am afraid of confusing the issue rather than helping it since my background does not include the belief in a totally depraved nature in my Catholic Christian walk or my non-Catholic Christian walk.

Shall I start it and tranfer these posts, or would you like to start it?

God Bless,
Maria
 
I think, I understand what You are saying.
Its even makes ‘’the Teaching of the Sinless Jesus’’ easier to believe, and proves the truth of the the Scriptures testimony.
But wait please, let me think.
 
Athanasiy said:
I think, I understand what You are saying.
Its even makes ‘’the Teaching of the Sinless Jesus’’ easier to believe, and proves the truth of the the Scriptures testimony.
But wait please, let me think.
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Not a problem:thumbsup:

Waiting…waiting…waiting…

Is 2 minutes enough time now?

Just kidding. Take all the time you need:)
 
The Old Testament Prophet says, that human heart is ‘’incurable, who can explore it ?’’
Some one said that man lies about hundred times a day.
We never say all truth about ourselves, we are full with selfishness, egoism, envy, lust, whatever we do we sin.
The more holy is man the better he sees his own ‘’incurable sinfulness’’ .
No, I think the Teaching about total depravity sounds better.
No ?
 
I am just thinking how is it possible to overcome concupiscence.
You can resist actions, thoughts, but You can not resist and avoid unwilling sins which do not depends on You.
Because the Scripture says that even nature, all world lies in sin
 
I do not deny the free will, but I think believe in the Total Deprivity.
Its even proves the statement that sin is a state not just an act.
How the contracted can not be commited.
We are partakers in the Adams sin.
Maria, Thank You so much for the thread.
But its late time hear, hope to explore this topic more on the morrow morning, and shall enrich my knowledge .
God Bless .
 
Athanasiy said:
Maria, Thank You so much for the thread.
But its late time hear, hope to explore this topic more on the morrow morning, and shall enrich my knowledge .
God Bless .
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You are welcome.

And that is okay. I have to think of the reply, or possibly wait and see the answers from some of our converts from the baptist arena:D

Your sister in Christ,
Maria
 
Athanasiy said:
I am just thinking how is it possible to overcome concupiscence.
You can resist actions, thoughts, but You can not resist and avoid unwilling sins which do not depends on You.
Because the Scripture says that even nature, all world lies in sin
Click to expand...
Concupisence is not a sin - it is a disorder in our human appetites (a result of original sin) which produces an inclination or temptation to sin. With the help of God’s grace, our will can be strengthened to resist these temptations. Please remember that temptation is not a sin; it is when we cease to fight against it and instead say yes to it that it becomes a sin. When we say “yes”, we are no longer “unwilling”.

It can be very difficult to overcome sins that have become habitual. But if we are truly sorry, confess it as sin, and resolve to continue battling it, God will aid us with His grace in the fight. What is important is not so much how quickly the sin is overcome, but how faithful we are in our commitmant to fight against it.

Nita
 
Athanasiy said:
The Old Testament Prophet says, that human heart is ‘’incurable, who can explore it ?’’
Some one said that man lies about hundred times a day.
We never say all truth about ourselves, we are full with selfishness, egoism, envy, lust, whatever we do we sin.
The more holy is man the better he sees his own ‘’incurable sinfulness’’ .
No, I think the Teaching about total depravity sounds better.
No ?
Click to expand...
Could you define what you mean by total depravity. While Catholics would not use this word, sometimes we can have similar definitions even though we use different words.

James Akin suggests that some who use the term would use this definition. Some who believe in “total depravity” vemenently disagree with this definition, others agree. Do you agree or disagree with the below definition?
From a Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin
Despite its name, the doctrine of total depravity does not mean men are always and only sinful. Calvinists do not think we are as sinful as we possibly could be. They claim our free will has been injured by original sin to the point that, unless God gives us special grace, we cannot free ourselves from sin and choose to serve God in love. We might choose to serve him out of fear, but not out of unselfish love [9].
Click to expand...
 
Athanasiy said:
But , I believe he was without sin, though in sinful body, otherwise the Incarnation is not Incarnation, He revealed the God in the sinful human body.
But in the sinful human body.

The Man not just damaged by sin, the man is sin’s invalid.
Yes , our nature is totally deprived, we are not just wounded by sin, but we have got the sin of Adam , and taking part in his crime. I believe in this truth. That’s the reason , I am in full agreement with Catholic Realism.

Don’t You want to tell me that Jesus had the presents of sin, but overcame it, and Mary did the same ? 🙂
Click to expand...
No, actually, I want to tell you to read John Paul II Theology of the Body, so you will understand why the body is the temple of the holy spirit, and not depraved and sinful just because it is made of flesh. I would also like to know how you came to the conclusion that everyone is guilty of the sin of Adam. You believe this is true why?
 
Jesus said ;
Why You don’t Judge according to yourselves how You should behave… something like this , I don’t remember exactly.

He was saying also that He who believes will do more then me…

It means that the total depravity is not really total.

But why it is important for the understanding of the Sinlessness
of Virgin ?
You want to prove that it is possible for any human person to be without sin too ?

I did not came to the conclusion yet, just curious what Maria G
have meant by starting from this point. 🙂
 
Isaiah 53:6 KJV 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 64:6 KJV 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 3:10-19 KJV 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We are all spiritually dead, blind, deaf, mute, lame, etc…unable to seek after God without his wonderful and sovereign grace on our lives. It seems depravity is the word to use.
 
Athanasiy said:
Jesus said ;
Why You don’t Judge according to yourselves how You should behave… something like this , I don’t remember exactly.

He was saying also that He who believes will do more then me…

It means that the total depravity is not really total.

But why it is important for the understanding of the Sinlessness
of Virgin ?
You want to prove that it is possible for any human person to be without sin too ?

I did not came to the conclusion yet, just curious what Maria G
have meant by starting from this point. 🙂
Click to expand...
No, I actually had no agenda of trying to prove anything from this, but it seems that here on the forums, there tends to be confusion in discussions unless the other understands (not necessarily agree;) ) but understands what position a person has in relation to original sin/total depravity/free will when discussing Mary. It may just be a nice discussion and tangent for us since we may not be too far away in except in terminology.

I was wondering if you could disect the definition of the Catholic Church from the Catechism. I ask this because your view seems to be a little fluid at this point. You think, no, wounded is not right, it is total depravity. But then you say no, not really Total.

Maybe if you could dissect the definition, that you first seemed to disagree with, it would help. Is it just that you are attached to the words “total depravity” instead of “wounded” or you actually have some disagreement with the Catholic definition?

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice,** but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded** in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

God Bless,
Maria
 
I can say that both definitions can be right ones.

But the Total Depravity Teaching can lead the people to despair
to the demons worship. We can’t say that we are Totally depraved.
Ok. the teaching of the Man as a Wounded can be understandable, so does it mean that the other human creature like Virgin, or any other Saint, can be described by the statement
that He or She , was not without sin ?
 
Athanasiy said:
I can say that both definitions can be right ones.

But the Total Depravity Teaching can lead the people to despair
to the demons worship. We can’t say that we are Totally depraved.
Ok. the teaching of the Man as a Wounded can be understandable, so does it mean that the other human creature like Virgin, or any other Saint, can be described by the statement
that He or She , was not without sin ?
Click to expand...
Total depravity is described as mans free will being so injured by the original sin of Adam and Eve that unless God gives him special grace we cannot free ourselves from sin and choose to serve Him in charity. Catholicism agrees that man is darkened in his intellect and will, however, not so much as to be able to choose right and wrong. In fact, it teaches that when God made man, He infused into their soul, intellect, conscience and will, the ability to know right from wrong.
In Romans 2:15-16 it reads…"They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus. "

Even though Adam and Eve brought original sin into the world, it didn’t darken mans intellect nor will enough to make them totally depraved of the ability to know and choose right from wrong. Every person in the world will be judged for what they know, (Luke 12:48) for what God has revealed to them, some have more than others, some less, but everyone will be accountable to what they knew to be true. Notice the bold highlighted words “written on their hearts” that is speaking of the moral law of Christ; that is those things which are morally good or morally bad. It goes on to say that even a persons conscience is a judge against them for good or for bad.
Some who teach “total depravity” say that man will always choose bad or wrong and that only the elect (who God chooses) will be saved because God predestined some to heaven and some to hell. This is against Catholic teaching for it is antithetical to a God who is love. Jesus died on the cross for all so that we would have eternal life, God loves everyone, but not everyone loves God and obeys Him, so God doesn’t send man to hell without man choosing to go there first.

Matthew 25:34-40 speaks of the just who will receive eternal life because they obeyed God. It was Gods grace that gave them salvation and they responded to the grace He first gave them.
“Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.”
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Here we have the just who God saves because He gives them grace and they obeyed the grace God gave them so they will receive eternal life.
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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Notice that these people did some good things even though what they did was for there own glory, still they did some good. The good they did wasn’t the type that was done to glorify God and wasn’t done to give Him the credit for they being allowed to do that good, so they are cast into eternal punishment [hell] for failing to obey God and responding to His grace and doing good to God’s glory.
 
Adam and Eve to St. John the Baptist: the best humans could only be friends with God.

Since Jesus won a the gift of being God’s children, we are new creations!!!

We have that new heart.

We have new wine.

Totally new is the reality.

We are now God’s children.

We are more blessed than Abraham and Moses put together.

Is this not correct?
 
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