Mandated orans posture

[Digitonomy]

Deacon Ed recently mentioned that orans is the required posture for the Our Father during the Byzantine divine liturgy. I am also aware that this is true for the Maronite divine liturgy.

Is there theological background somewhere as to why this posture is mandated?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Deacon Ed recently mentioned that orans is the required posture for the Our Father during the Byzantine divine liturgy. I am also aware that this is true for the Maronite divine liturgy.

Is there theological background somewhere as to why this posture is mandated?

It derives from the ancient Jewish posture for petitional prayer. It is also consistent with our understanding the Lord’s Prayer which, unfortunately, we mistranslate. The Aramaic word Abba is normally translated in Scripture as “Father” but, in fact, it’s the familial familiar and should be translated as “Daddy.” The “lifting up of our hands” is a petition to the Father: “pick me up, Daddy!”

In virtually every theological discussion of prayer we talk about “raising our hearts and minds to God” and the orans position reflects that understanding.

For Byzantine Catholics the posture for prayer of repentence is that most commonly associated with Muslims – forhead on the floor and hind-quarters raised up. The Muslims actually got that posture from us! This is the “great metany” (from the Greek metanoia meaning conversion or change of heart) and it is seen most commonly during Great Lent at the Prayer of St. Ephrem the Syrian (a deacon).

Deacon Ed

 

[Searching13]

Deacon Ed,

Perhaps these are some of the reasons this posture is not forbidden in the GIRM?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Searching13:

Deacon Ed,

Perhaps these are some of the reasons this posture is not forbidden in the GIRM?

That’s right. What is forbidden to laity are gestures that are appropriate to the priest. This includes the extanding of the hands at the prayer “the Lord be with you” – people should not extend their hands in response ('and also with you"). Also prohibited is making the sign of the cross over someone when blessing them.

Deacon Ed

 

[netmilsmom]

Deacon Ed:

That’s right. What is forbidden to laity are gestures that are appropriate to the priest. This includes the extanding of the hands at the prayer “the Lord be with you” – people should not extend their hands in response ('and also with you"). Also prohibited is making the sign of the cross over someone when blessing them.

Deacon Ed

Paragraph 152 of GIRM reads as follows:

**152: **“At the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest, with hands joined, says the introduction to the Lord’s Prayer. With hands outstretched, he then sings or says with this prayer with the people.”

Therefore if it is ever explained to be a gesture for the Priest in the GIRM, it is not for the laity.

Where in any Vatican document is it given as an instruction for the Laity in the Holy Mass? It is given for the priest, it is not given for the laity.

 

[jordan]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Where in any Vatican document is it given as an instruction for the Laity in the Holy Mass? It is given for the priest, it is not given for the laity.

Quite right. There was a good article on the subject on the Catholic Exchange website. Here’s an excerpt:

While the orans position has rich tradition in Jewish and even ancient Christian prayer life, there is no precedent for Catholic laity assuming the orans position in Western liturgy for a millennium and a half; that alone cautions against its (re)introduction without careful thought. More specifically — and notwithstanding the fact that few liturgical gestures are univocal per se — lay use of the orans gesture in Mass today, besides injecting some gestural disunity in liturgy, could be used by some to suggest a blurring of the differences between lay liturgical roles and those of priests just at a time when distinctions between the baptismal priesthood and the ordained priesthood are struggling for healthy rearticulation.

Here’s the link if you want to read more:
catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=114&art_id=28525

God bless,
jb

 

[Roman_Army]

Deacon Ed:

…Also prohibited is making the sign of the cross over someone when blessing them.

Please explain that better. Do you mean in the mass when the priest is blessing the people at the end, a lay person can’t do it on someone? Or do you mean anytime and anywhere, the laity can’t do that? In some places and to some people it is a custom that parents bless their kids that way before they go off to school.

 

[Searching13]

Please explain that better. Do you mean in the mass when the priest is blessing the people at the end, a lay person can’t do it on someone? Or do you mean anytime and anywhere, the laity can’t do that? In some places and to some people it is a custom that parents bless their kids that way before they go off to school.

I hope Deacon Ed will be back, but in the meantime----As I understand a lay person is never permitted to bless over someone.

The orans posture is not forbidden to the laity. Other examples of priestly gestures in Mass not forbidden to the laity are the sign of the cross and the folded hands posture. These are certainly priestly gestures in the Mass which are not forbidden to the laity.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

When parents bless their children it is permitted for them to place their hand on the head of the child(ren) or to use their thumb to make the sign of the cross on the forehead, but never to use the whole hand to make the sign of the cross as would a priest or deacon.

Netmil(name removed by moderator): The GIRM also specifies when the priest should genuflect and when he should fold his hands in prayer. By extension of the logic you have used the laity should never do these either. Those gestures, as well as the triple signation at the beginning of the Gospel are not reserved to the priest. Jordan cited Dr. Edward Peter’s opinon with regard to the orans position. His doctorate is in both civil and canon law, not liturgy. While I certainly respect his opinion it is not liturgical law. The American bishops have discussed the idea of asking the people to use the orans position instead of holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer. I have not seen this as an official recommendation, however, and I do not make that recommendation myself.

As I said, this is the normative position for the Byzantine Catholics when saying the Lord’s Prayer. It is also used by the Maronites and, I’m sure, by other Eastern Catholics. As Dr. Peter points out, that does not, in and of itself, justify its reintroduction in the Latin Rite.

The bottom line is that it is not a posture reserved to the priest (if it were it could not be used by the laity in the East) and, therefore, may be used by the laity if they so wish.

Deacon Ed

 

[Tepeyac]

Deacon Ed,

in Mexico it’s very common for parents or grandparents to bless their children with the whole sign of the cross over the child and then the child sometimes kisses the parents right hand. Are the rules on this something that varies from country to country?

 

[crule]

Deacon Ed:

The orans posture is not the norm in all Byzantine churches. The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics do not pray the Our Father with arms outstretched.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

crule:

Deacon Ed:

The orans posture is not the norm in all Byzantine churches. The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics do not pray the Our Father with arms outstretched.

All the Ruthenian churches I’ve attended do.

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Tepeyac:

Deacon Ed,

in Mexico it’s very common for parents or grandparents to bless their children with the whole sign of the cross over the child and then the child sometimes kisses the parents right hand. Are the rules on this something that varies from country to country?

What is “common” and what is permitted are frequently two different things. The rules do not vary from place to place as they are for the whole Church.

Deacon Ed

 

[netmilsmom]

Deacon Ed:

Netmil(name removed by moderator): The GIRM also specifies when the priest should genuflect and when he should fold his hands in prayer. By extension of the logic you have used the laity should never do these either. Those gestures, as well as the triple signation at the beginning of the Gospel are not reserved to the priest.

Here is an example of the laity being told to genuflect…
137. The Creed is sung or recited by the priest together with the people (cf. above, no. 68) with everyone standing. At the words et incarnatus est (by the power of the Holy Spirit . . . became man) all make a profound bow; but on the Solemnities of the Annunciation and of the Nativity of the Lord, all genuflect.

The instruction on crossing for the Gospel…
134. At the ambo, the priest opens the book and, with hands joined, says, Dominus vobiscum (The Lord be with you), and the people respond, Et cum spiritu tuo (And also with you). Then he says, Lectio sancti Evangelii (A reading from the holy gospel), making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth, and breast, which everyone else does as well. The people say the acclamation Gloria tibi, Domine (Glory to you, Lord). The priest incenses the book, if incense is used (cf. below, nos. 276-277). Then he proclaims the Gospel and at the end says the acclamation Verbum Domini (The gospel of the Lord), to which all respond, Laus tibi, Christe (Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ). The priest kisses the book, saying quietly, Per evangelica dicta (May the words of the gospel).

Here is the sign of the cross…
124. After doing these things, the priest goes to the chair. Once the Entrance chant is concluded, the priest and faithful, all standing, make the Sign of the Cross. The priest says, In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti (In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit). The people answer, Amen.

I haven’t found the folding hands yet. Perhaps you can point me.

From here…usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect4

Perhaps everyone here should understand how the GIRM works. It will only say what you should do, not what you should not. If a posture is never mentioned for the laity, it is not for the laity. And also understand there are many other documents. Quoting the GIRM is one of many.

 

[netmilsmom]

Deacon Ed:

Netmil(name removed by moderator): The GIRM also specifies when the priest should fold his hands in prayer.

I have just done a CTrl-F search though the GIRM. The search string “FOLD” does not appear in the document.
Could you please point to what you read?

 

[Tepeyac]

Dear Deacon Ed,

thank you for the response. I’m afraid it’s not just “common” but “traditional” (you’ll see this happen in old movies, for instance). That doesn’t automatically make it right of course. As far as I know the bishops there haven’t spoken against this custom, and this in a traditonally Catholic country. Maybe this is a cultural thing? To be honest I don’t imagine this will change soon. shrugs

Thanks,
Tepeyac

p.s.
I like the orans posture. Just my opinion.
Deacon Ed:

What is “common” and what is permitted are frequently two different things. The rules do not vary from place to place as they are for the whole Church.

Deacon Ed

 

[Searching13]

It is very sad when a lay person contradicts a deacon, especially one as knowledgable as Deacon Ed.

 

[Searching13]

Deacon Ed,

I just want to say that I really appreciate your time and effort here.

 

[netmilsmom]

crule:

Deacon Ed:

The orans posture is not the norm in all Byzantine churches. The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics do not pray the Our Father with arms outstretched.

I think that at one time I wrote ByzCath (a fellow poster) and asked.
He said that it is not the norm.

And lets face it, a few years ago, we could have attended a Latin church and thought liturgical dance was the norm because we saw it there.

 

[crule]

I think that at one time I wrote ByzCath (a fellow poster) and asked.
He said that it is not the norm.

And lets face it, a few years ago, we could have attended a Latin church and thought liturgical dance was the norm because we saw it there.

We do not do it at our parish - and I spoke with a priest friend of mine in Eastern Pennsylvania who replied that he has attended liturgies in 3 of the 4 eparchies and assured me that it was not the norm.

Since Fr Deacon Ed is from California, maybe it’s an isolated event at a few Van Nuys Eparchy parishes.