Mandatory vaccinations vs moral objection

[Almostconvert]

If measles was so mild in the past before we had vaccines, why is it estimated that between 1855 and 2005, measles killed about 200 million people worldwide? And how did this supposed God given method of immunity work for most Native Americans when Europeans first came to the Americas and brought diseases to which they had no natural immunity? The answer is that most of them were wiped out.

First, that is a broad timeframe. I’m sure a large portion of those worldwide were, again, where access to clean drinking water, sanitation, and healthcare are a larger issue. You cannot apply a worldwide issue to this argument anymore than you can justify abortion with those who conceive via rape. Second, you are proving my point. Native Americans didn’t have the natural immunity gained by the obtaining of these childhood illnesses because they didn’t have it as children. In that case, it would have been more effective to have researched treatment for the illness in a population that never acquired natural immunity, than destroying the benefit of natural immunity through vaccination.

 

[Maezck]

I’m sure that the 1,044 individuals in 28 states who got measles in the US from January 1 to June 13, 2019 would be relieved to know that you aren’t worried and that all they would have had to do to not get measles would have been to take more vitamin A…:crazy_face:

And since the number of people who got measles in the US in 2019 was more than double what it was in 2018, is that because people were taking a lot less Vitamin A this year?

I’m starting to think that I must have entered the Twilight Zone.

All of them survived and had zero complications under Drs care with proper nutrition as their aided advice, what’s the problem lol?? Also most of these people were previously vaccinated, which the mmr insert and the NIH confirms they can shed via urine, surfaces they touch, and from the throat. It’s surely not the nonvax’d I’m worried about :crazy_face:, Twilight Zone indeed.

 

[PeterT]

How can the Church ignore a strong conviction I feel from the Holy Spirit?

Are you sure your strong conviction is coming from the Holy Spirit? The Catholic Church itself is guided by the Holy Spirit and the Church won’t issue directives that are in conflict with what the Holy Spirit wants. So if the Church approves the use of a certain vaccine, one ought to be confident that this approval is aligned with what the Holy Spirit desires.

 

[Thorolfr]

First, that is a broad timeframe. I’m sure a large portion of those worldwide were, again, where access to clean drinking water, sanitation, and healthcare are a larger issue. You cannot apply a worldwide issue to this argument anymore than you can justify abortion with those who conceive via rape. Second, you are proving my point. Native Americans didn’t have the natural immunity gained by the obtaining of these childhood illnesses because they didn’t have it as children. In that case, it would have been more effective to have researched treatment for the illness in a population that never acquired natural immunity, than destroying the benefit of natural immunity through vaccination.

But even in cases where people have some natural immunity, with no vaccines, hundreds of thousand of people got the measles each year and thousands died. In 1920, the United States had 469,924 recorded cases of measles (a lot more people got measles than were recorded) and 7,575 deaths associated with measles.

 

[Maezck]

But even in cases where people have some natural immunity, with no vaccines, hundreds of thousand of people got the measles each year and thousands died. In 1920, the United States had 469,924 recorded cases of measles (a lot more people got measles than were recorded) and 7,575 deaths associated with measles.

Which very quickly dropped as time progressed forward into the 40s and 50s, via natural immunity from mom, without any vax. So, when are you going to speak on the ethics of abortions with these fetal cells?

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

I’m sure that the 1,044 individuals in 28 states who got measles in the US from January 1 to June 13, 2019 would be relieved to know that you aren’t worried and that all they would have had to do to not get measles would have been to take more vitamin A…:crazy_face:

And since the number of people who got measles in the US in 2019 was more than double what it was in 2018, is that because people were taking a lot less Vitamin A this year?

I’m starting to think that I must have entered the Twilight Zone.

All of them survived and had zero complications under Drs care with proper nutrition as their aided advice, what’s the problem lol?? Also most of these people were previously vaccinated…

According to the CDC, “The majority of people who got measles were unvaccinated.”

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

 

[Beryllos]

It is ignorant to think that this is not continuing to happen.

The 2 aborted fetus cell lines from the 1960s are still in use. As far as I can tell, they are the only aborted fetus cell lines used for production of vaccines.

As I stated before, the original cell lines are beginning to fail.

Says who?

You cannot replicate them indefinitely and scientists have not found an alternative

True and true, but that doesn’t imply that the original cell lines are beginning to fail.

PBS article

Here is a link:

Scientists say fetal tissue remains essential for vaccines and developing treatments | PBS NewsHour

I remember when that undercover video came out. After reviewing it again now, I understand that it relates not to vaccines but to other medical research which we can agree is immoral. So far I am seeing no evidence that new aborted fetal cell lines are being used or will be used for vaccine production.

 

[Beryllos]

So if the Church approves the use of a certain vaccine

I might be quibbling over the choice of a word, but as I see it, the Church does not approve but rather allows it provisionally.

 

[Maezck]

Thorolfr
Yes, and the strain in which they fell victim to was vaccine derived. It keeps happening, the vaccines mutate, D8 from A as well as A into many others NIH confirms. That’s what vaxxes do to survive, just like bacteria too. Still waiting on ethics info for the OP

Also since the forum isn’t allowing me to reply to Ghosty1981… it seems he calls himself a Catholic yet tries to minimize his compliance with evil, deeming it “remote evil.” Sounds more like a Catholic trying to clear his conscious by acting like the compliance in the evil is “remote”. What corrupt priest told you that vaccines are ‘only’ “remote cooperation with evil”, who told you that was ever okay or ethical to be remotely involved with an evil? Any cooperation or compliance with evil will always be evil, no matter how “remote” you deem it.

 

[13pollitos]

I share your concerns with vaccines. My mom shared the same concerns. She was a medical researcher. This is how we have gone about things.

Mom always prayed with us before and after we got our shots. We thanked God for our health, asked Him to continue blessing us with health, and to help find better options in medical care. I do this with my kids too.

Mom never told us that the shots were necessary to keep us healthy. She would tell us the the shots would help little babies and sick kids from catching really bad diseases. By getting our shots we would be helping other people.

Mom would pray for all aborted babies daily. She was very opposed to abortion. As I started learning about vaccines some of her prayers began to make more sense. Mom would always add, “And bless those babies who gave their lives so we may have health. Forgive us for what we have done.” I think I may start adding that to my prayers as well.

These are just some ways that my family and I cope with the moral dilema of all this. I truly don’t feel it is anyone’s business whether a family vaccinates or not. Don’t let vaccines keep you from the Church though. I know several Catholic families that have not vaccinated at all or who have been selective in the vaccines their children receive. I know a few others that have spread vaccines out over a longer time period than is recommended in the charts. Vaccine requirements are state mandate not a church mandate, and all states have different requirements. It is possible that the diocese is under pressure from the state about
vaccines in its schools. Even catholic schools have to abide by certain state statutes.

Thank you for asking this question!

 

[Maezck]

Says who?

that information on the failure of replication and alternatives, was from Children of God for Life with their info when they had written the Vatican with their concerns. It does look like the information that is shown otherwise, contradict what the CDC and other sources claim. For example, the Human Vaccine and Immunotherapeutic journals which COG for Life lists, such as the ones from Bo Ma U-Feng and Cong-Yi Zheng ( Characteristics and viral propagation properties of a new human diploid cell line, walvax-2, and its suitability as a candidate cell substrate for vaccine production ), are in regards to the cell substrates for further vaccine productions. This is in reference to the Walvax-2 and new human diploid lines, where the characteristics of the old are failing, and the new Walvax is going to be needed as the new substrate for further manufacturing. This is another area in which the Children of God for Life group is concerned because as there is a continued need for cell substrates… there is a continued need for abortions. The CDC doesn’t admit this outright. But there it all is in the list of expedients as the CDC claims the DNA keeps getting replicated (surely not the same original source DNA anymore).

The Walvax is a “candidate” because they are knowing the old cell lines are cancerous in other words. So they need a new cell line. These issues will continue as time draws forward, since none of them have been tested long-term for safety before they’re placed into circulation anyhow.

 

[thistle]

I do not believe I am putting my child’s safety at risk and I am aware of the statement the church has on this.

Any parent who refuses to have their children vaccinated is not only putting their children’s lives at risk but lives of others who may come into contact them should the children contract a disease which is blatantly preventable.
The Church says it is okay in certain circumstances and Christ gave the Church authority to speak in matters of faith and morals.

 

[13pollitos]

Any parent who refuses to have their children vaccinated is not only putting their children’s lives at risk but lives of others who may come into contact them should the children contract a disease which is blatantly preventable.

This is true. However, vaccinated children, especially those who receive specific vaccines such as polio, also put people at risk for infection. Children who are given polio vaccines are told to keep them away from unimmunized or immune compromised people. Same with rotavirus. With rotavirus, the Dr recommends no kissing baby on the face and wearing gloves while changing diapers. So if babies do what babies do and steal a pacifier or bottle from a recently immunized baby, they are at risk. Those are just two examples of two different vaccines, but there are warnings about others as well.

I make sure my kids are vaccinated, but it doesn’t make them risk free to immune compromised or even in some cases healthy vaccinated people. After all, that’s partly how we figured out we need boosters of several vaccines that previously we didn’t. It used to be just tetanus boosters we got in adulthood. Now it’s the whole dtap because of whooping cough outbreaks.

 

[Maezck]

We should also not forget about the deposition (under oath) from the highly respected “Godfather of Vaccines”, Dr. Stanley Plotkin, Provax pediatrician who created many of the vaccines being used today, testifying under oath about the over 200 aborted babies and the few finally found to be useful in the end. This is a clip a bit under 10 minutes:

The entire deposition is on YouTube, but it is hours and hours long and dry.
Transcript here<-----

The under-oath deposition from January 2018, he admits to having used 76 babies → THREE MONTHS or OLDER in gestation, in just ONE study related to vaccines.
Most were born via waterbag abortion LIVE and intact for proper organ harvesting. Plotkin states that this was just one of many studies he personally worked on and that many more babies were harvested for other vaccine groundwork studies. So many studies that he can’t even recall how many.

The vax industry is deeply entrenched in the abortion industry, and cannot survive without it

 

[Ghosty1981]

Also most of these people were previously vaccinated,

This is absolutely false. Please don’t spread false medical information.

Yes, and the strain in which they fell victim to was vaccine derived.

This is also false. The strain in Washington State is D8, not the A-strain used in vaccines. Do you have any documentation showing that any other outbreaks are of the A-strain used in vaccines? If not I recommend not spreading false information about serious health matters.

As for the OP’s question, if vaccinating your children is in any way connected with aborted fetuses it is very, very remote. You can’t be forced to go against your conscience, but consider the fact that not bringing your children into the Faith is a much greater moral issue than such a remote cooperation with an evil committed decades ago.

 

[13pollitos]

This is a clip a bit under 10 minutes:

I appreciate you posting this video. Pray for this Dr. He looks as if he is struggling within himself to reconcile what he has done. He even states that he has “changed his mind” on the way research is performed and on whom. He seems so very sad.

 

[Maezck]

Aborted babies don’t give anyone health, since there’s no safety studies concluding injecting the cellular DNA of males or females 3-4 mos in gestation provides health or wellness. Matter a fact, section 13.1 in each insert of every vaccine, states that they’ve never been tested for mutagenic or carcinogenic capability, just recently the FDA removed this portion from the MMR2 insert; withholding informed consent. They’ve found that the old fetal strains are becoming a risk of being a carcinogen so they’re needing replacements. Similar to when the monkey liver/kidney ingredient from the cells of the Simian was found to cause cancer 50 years after the fact too. Read up on the SV40 cancer virus, SV40 foundation. History repeats itself.

We are right though, to ask for forgiveness, because those children were definitely the sacrificial lambs to Molech. Today’s Molech is the abortion and vaccine industries, continually sacrificing babies and children for the idol of financial greed, veiled in the hopes of “health” and the development of “prevention, treatment or “cures” through immoral biomedical research and engineering.

The modern day Molech should be well pleased – in addition to the untold millions received in selling aborted baby organs and body parts, Planned Parenthood receives over $500 million from US tax payers from government grants and reimbursements (Planned Parenthood annual report).”
***And in addition to the abortion industry, the MULTI BILLION DOLLAR vaccine industry, which sacrifices our babies and children is even more profitable who are also SHIELDED FROM LIABILITY.

Modern molech is quite pleased at all the so-called Christians it has deceived into both aborting and vaccinating with these child sacrifices, as well as those Christians who defend the practice and continue to adore the product that’s so deeply dependent on the abortion industry to repeat history.

“It is time for the church to practice the Old Testament, to “destroy the idols” and “take down the high places.” How do we do this? There are at least three things we can do. First, pray for our leaders and our nation. Human depravity can only be turned back by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Second, work through our legal system, flawed as it is. God placed the institution of government on earth and meant it for good. Call for the Supreme Court to hold Planned Parenthood accountable for laws they may have broken and the atrocities they have conducted. In addition, continue to be diligent in asking legislators to forbid the sale of fetal tissue. Third, continue to be salt and light in the world and uphold the sanctity of life so that our one TRUE GOD is not defiled.

There have been over 58 million abortions since Roe vs. Wade (1973). And countless babies, children, adults and elderly harmed and killed by the vaccine industry. This is not rare. It’s “business” as usual.

 

[angel12]

risk?

Not only your child’s safety, but also the safety if other people who cannot be vaccinated for health reasons.

How would you justify another child dying because your unvaccinated child transmitted a preventable disease?

 

[Maezck]

Not only your child’s safety, but also the safety if other people who cannot be vaccinated for health reasons.
How would you justify another child dying because your unvaccinated child transmitted a preventable disease?

Apparently, you claim we have a duty to vaccinate our kids for a neighbor’s, but reality is that we don’t owe any neighbor any duty that conflicts with God’s Word, especially when the company that holds these vaccines have ZERO liability if anything goes wrong. Not to mention that we are first and foremost entrusted with the welfare of OUR OWN child and are absolutely not called to put our child at risk for someone else’s, especially with believing in a false sense of how immunity works/ an ignorance of what these vaccines are even made of. No tests for safety, unethical adjuvants from other women’s abortions = absolutely no injections

 

[GordonP]

We have interfered with the natural order of immunity provided by children getting them and now are suffering the consequences.

Like our children still being alive? That is a consequence that I am willing to live with.