Mandatory vaccinations vs moral objection

[PJH_74]

Matter a fact, the mmr has killed more children than the measles

There’s a serious hole in that argument. You have no idea of how many people were saved, because there is no way to know how many were exposed and protected. You can’t compare an unknown number to a number. To put it another way, you really can’t claim how many people have been killed by air bags vs saved. We do know however certain fatality types have been reduced.

What is for sure is that Measles is almost entirely wiped out in the US, but we can still get a few cases from abroad so this is not a time to let down our guard.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Curious if all the vaxxers are as vigilant when it comes to the millions of undocumented people flooding into our country everyday. Why aren’t border states overwhelmed with mmr? And why aren’t we standing at the border linked in a human chain armed with needles ready to stab? Could it be because the threat is overstated?

 

[Angel_Bradford]

My mother, who is 77 now, had measles as a child of 7. It turned to encephalitis and she was in a coma for several weeks. It was only through the intercession of Mother Cabrini that she survived and made a full recovery.

Another friend of mine also had measles as a child and was left sterile which can be a side effect of measles for males.

 

[Jillian4]

I was only 5 and was very healthy when I got chicken pox. I almost died. The doctor said it reminded him of small pox it was such a severe case. I ended up hospitalized with sepsis. Chicken pox Can be extremely dangerous.

Do you know if you were given tylenol, or any form of acetominophen? That’s the only thing I’ve seen that makes chicken pox turn to sepsis in children and adults, it’s horrifying what it looks like, it definitely does look like small pox and I’m sorry you ever had to experience that. Drs even today are STILL telling parents of the recently vaccinated and the sick to use tylenol, yet it depletes liver function to help the body detox and heal. I’m trying to remember what that is called when tylenol is used and sepsis ensues, with the smallpox like lesions/bumps, there’s a name for it.
Probably why you saw so many sick children too. Children are sick more often, but I notice it corresponds with the vax schedule increases too, esp here in CA where I am where vaccines have been mandatory for school and our teachers deal with so much illness too it’s awful. Parents need to just not send their kids anywhere when sick, vax or non.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

Vaccinations are important. Those who choose not to have their kids vaccinated put the lives of other people at risk, along with the lives of their children.
Mandatory vaccinations are needed because some people do not seem to care if they put others at risk…
I remember polio and the fear there was by most people, before a vaccine was available.
The vaccines are there to help people.

 

[TheLittleLady]

So can I not confess a sin I feel about consuming alcohol even though this is common practice in the church?

As consuming alcohol is not a sin (provided you are not violating a just civil law, nor are you putting the safety of others at risk). We don’t confess feelings, we confess sins.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

I am curious if all the illegals haters think that all things that go wrong in this country can be blamed on those people?
Tornadoes or floods in the Midwest? A train derailment. Mass shooting at a theater.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I feel like I cannot follow my calling to the Church and risk my moral standing, particularly if that decision will force me to vaccinate my children against this standing in order for them to continue to attend their Catholic School. I can’t come Home.

Catholic children can attend public schools, secular private schools, be home schooled. If the Catholic School has reqs that you do not wish to follow, find another school.

No one is persecuted because their Catholic kids don’t go to Catholic school.

Come home!!

 

[pnewton]

Matter a fact, the mmr has killed more children than the measles.

No, not a fact. A fact is something that is true. I understand the OP’s position on the morality of the vaccine, and I can even understand (though not agree) with the understanding of the right of a parent to decline, just because, even believing the junk science, as long as they are not around other children. But I assure you, measles has killed more children. Denying this is pretty far off the rails in the area of conspiracy paranoia. From 1985 to 2005 the numbers of total deaths dropped from 1.2 million to less than 400,000.

Yes, the vaccination is not safe for those with a compromise immune system, which is why they do not get it. This is also why I say not getting it when one can safely do so, and putting other children at risk of death for the sole reason of protecting one’s own child, is a violation of the Golden Rule.

Other parents love their kids too, you know, even those with immune deficiency.

 

[13pollitos]

Do you know if you were given tylenol, or any form of acetominophen? That’s the only thing I’ve seen that makes chicken pox turn to sepsis in children and adults

That isn’t what causes sepsis

Sepsis - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic

 

[Maezck]

There’s a serious hole in that argument. You have no idea of how many people were saved, because there is no way to know how many were exposed and protected. You can’t compare an unknown number to a number. To put it another way, you really can’t claim how many people have been killed by air bags vs saved. We do know however certain fatality types have been reduced.

What is for sure is that Measles is almost entirely wiped out in the US, but we can still get a few cases from abroad so this is not a time to let down our guard.

You cut my comment off and took it out of context first off. I had stated in the US as a first world nation, meaning post vaccine 1963, my statement would be true. Prior to the 1963 measles vaccine, the 1920s into the 1950s saws the greatest decline of measles without any vaccine, from the original form of herd immunity via antibodies. It’s especially true for 2018-2019 insofar, where zero people of the thousands who had had the measles and had no complications, the MMR has killed 459 people since November 30, 2018. Pretty easy to add up the averages from there. If we really want to get technical, the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 legally required pediatricians and other vaccine providers to report serious health problems following vaccination to federal health agencies (VAERS), and so far since Nov 30, 2018 there’s been 93,179 reports of harmful measles vaccine reactions, hospitalizations, and injuries following measles vaccination with the MMR. Again, I’m just speaking about post-vaccine era, where the vax has always been more problematic than the actual illnesses themselves, esp for mumps and measles. The vaccine never wiped measles out though, lol it declined on it’s own all the graphs show. Also interesting how the NIH has posted journals to show how outbreak pockets can occur from the vaccinated too since the MMR is live and sheds the worst for the first 13 days post-vaccination. So no, it’s not only from abroad, it’s from right here at home.

 

[blackforest]

You cannot claim a religious exemption when there is no basis for it in your religion.

The First Amendment upholds religious beliefs regardless of whether they come from an organized religion or through personal prayer and conscience. Where the Catholic Church has not mandated that children receive every last of 72 doses on the U.S. schedule, there is some room for one’s conscience. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

Except there is now a possibility that I will be forced to vaccinate my children in order for them to attend school as Catholics.

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops does not believe that Catholic schools should be denying religious exemptions. http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...s-Conscience-Exemption-updated-April-2015.pdf It’s a shame to see some Catholic schools disregard this sage advice.

How are the unborn continuing to be killed by people being vaccinated now?

Scientists say fetal tissue remains essential for vaccines and developing treatments | PBS NewsHour

If people refuse to vaccinate their kids or themselves because of this, some of them will become infected with measles or chicken pox, etc. and pass this on to others, some of whom will die as a result. Is that morally acceptable?

What about people with medical exemptions? Children with medical exemptions are also contagious.

What about vaccine failure demonstrated in recent cases of pertussis and mumps in vaccinated populations?

Are you aware that Britain’s National Health Service discourages routine infant chicken pox vaccination? Look up why.

Vaccines are not a black and white issue.

 

[blackforest]

Measles and chicken pox are not “mild childhood illnesses” for people who already have compromised immune systems.

People with compromised immune systems are already in danger when they go out in public. A common cold could kill many of them. But there is also Hand, Food, and Mouth disease, bronchitis, etc. If I had a medically fragile child, there’s no way I’d send him/her into a crowded classroom or daycare!

Of course people with compromised immune systems are not supposed to get vaccinated,

Actually, the immuncompromised still receive a lot of vaccines. Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP): Use of Vaccines and Immune Globulins in Persons with Altered Immunocompetence

I want to join. I want my children and family to come with me.

Honestly, I wouldn’t let this stop you. There are plenty of Catholics who think sanely on this issue and see the complexity and nuance.

Any parent who refuses to have their children vaccinated is not only putting their children’s lives at risk but lives of others who may come into contact them should the children contract a disease which is blatantly preventable.

My children are not vaccinated for Hepatitis B. I tested negative for the disease while pregnant. They will get the vaccine as adolescents. Some Catholic Dioceses, however, have made it completely clear that they are unwelcome in parochial schools.

Are you aware of how this disease is transmitted? Or are you genuinely fearful that children like mine are going to cough Hepatitis B onto your children?

Are you worried that kids will lick tetanus onto others? Sneeze out Hepatitis A?

I’m not being snarky so much as trying to highlight that this is not a black and white issue.

 

[Maezck]

No, not a fact. A fact is something that is true. I understand the OP’s position on the morality of the vaccine, and I can even understand (though not agree) with the understanding of the right of a parent to decline, just because, even believing the junk science, as long as they are not around other children. But I assure you, measles has killed more children. Denying this is pretty far off the rails in the area of conspiracy paranoia. From 1985 to 2005 the numbers of total deaths dropped from 1.2 million to less than 400,000.

Yes, the vaccination is not safe for those with a compromise immune system, which is why they do not get it. This is also why I say not getting it when one can safely do so, and putting other children at risk of death for the sole reason of protecting one’s own child, is a violation of the Golden Rule.

Other parents love their kids too, you know, even those with immune deficiency.

As I said above, the person who just REquoted my post took this out of context. Please read above. Also those numbers you cited are worldwide, not for the US, this is why you don’t misquote someone.

 

[pnewton]

In many ways, the internet has been a curse and a serious heath risk. What once was old wive’s tales and gossip has become blogs and chat groups. The danger is that science is not a matter of picking which internet culture is most convenient.

 

[thistle]

I’m not being snarky so much as trying to highlight that this is not a black and white issue.

The bottom line is that it is disgraceful for parents to endanger the lives of their children by refusing vaccinations that can protect them from preventable diseases. There is simply no excuse for that.

 

[Maezck]

In many ways, the internet has been a curse and a serious heath risk. What once was old wive’s tales and gossip has become blogs and chat groups. The danger is that science is not a matter of picking which internet culture is most convenient.

Interesting statement as you pick out one sentence of my post, and blow it out into a different topic altogether lol. But ok

 

[blackforest]

The bottom line is that it is disgraceful for parents to endanger the lives of their children by refusing vaccinations that can protect them from preventable diseases. There is simply no excuse for that.

The Precautionary Principle is a reason, not an excuse.

Also, the risks are often hysterically overblown. Can you quantify for me the exact danger that my first grader will catch Hep B in a classroom setting?

 

[pnewton]

Also those numbers you cited are worldwide, not for the US, this is why you don’t misquote someone.

Yes, and? It still shows the death rate. It is important data. We must remember what will happen, not just what is happening. I would like to see legal, civil consequences for parents who expose and infect other children who do not qualify for immunization through reckless conduct, just like is done for all reckless conduct, like texting or drinking while driving in public. Or a better analogy is like a person who knowingly has a communicable STD knowingly infecting another.

If a parent wishes to make that choice, then at least allow for the consequence of that choice to be addressed.

 

[blackforest]

Yes, and? It still shows the death rate.

But the data is out of context. It is disingenuous fear-mongering to cite Third World death rates and apply them to a First World setting. MMR vaccination campaigns in under-developed countries can be a good thing, but they can also be a glib substitution for underlying human rights that need addressed - such as the right to clean water and sanitary conditions.

If a parent wishes to make that choice, then at least allow for the consequence of that choice to be addressed.

Well, there’s a difference between consequences - e.g. a vaccine reaction or time off from school with chicken pox - and methodically imposed punishments, such as banning children from Catholic education if they’re missing so much as one of 72 doses from the vaccine schedule.