Manipulation vs just arguing

[struggling4him]

Had some recent family drama over not wanting to drive down to visit my mother on her birthday but on the day before. This year, her birthday falls on a Sunday - its the weekend, but we have an infant son who is a terror in the car (its a 2 hr drive), and, whereas on a saturday we can leave first thing and time it with his morning nap, on Sunday, we need to take into account Mass, which delays the trip and makes it off sync with his nap schedule.

For the reason above, I told my mom we’d be coming down the day before her birthday. She was bothered by this - and really did not believe it was a big deal, as both days were part of the weekend and we should have been able to make it on a Sunday. She pointed out that she and my father brought us kids to see our grandparents (2 hrs away) all the time, and I got the impression she thinks my wife and I are a little too subserviant to our son’s sleep schedule. She asked why we couldn’t go to evening Mass the night before, I explained his dinner time is around then, and she let out an exasperated sigh. She voiced her annoyance that we are unilaterally telling her which day to celebrate her birthday on.

To keep the peace, I finally said that I would make the trip solo on the actual bday - and my parents seem happy about that.

My wife is livid, and says that my mother is being manipulative. I don’t like the way it was such a big deal to my mother, I’ll grant that, but in terms of it actually being manipulative, I don’t know, that seems like a stretch. A sticking point with my wife is that my mother essentially questioned our parenting in order to get her way - I responded that the motive isn’t as devious as that, our parenting choices directly impacted her, so she felt she had a right to speak up - if she was just bringing it up in any other circumstance, it would be like she was being nosey. And as far as questioning our parenting, yea, I suppose that she did, but I dont know, if something seems drastically different than how you parented, and you’re close with the person doing it, is it really so off-base to question it?

This must sound very trivial, but its taking quite a toll, and I’d really appreciate any feedback you can give on how my mother acted.

 

[Xantippe]

Had some recent family drama over not wanting to drive down to visit my mother on her birthday but on the day before. This year, her birthday falls on a Sunday - its the weekend, but we have an infant son who is a terror in the car (its a 2 hr drive), and, whereas on a saturday we can leave first thing and time it with his morning nap, on Sunday, we need to take into account Mass, which delays the trip and makes it off sync with his nap schedule.

For the reason above, I told my mom we’d be coming down the day before her birthday. She was bothered by this - and really did not believe it was a big deal, as both days were part of the weekend and we should have been able to make it on a Sunday. She pointed out that she and my father brought us kids to see our grandparents (2 hrs away) all the time, and I got the impression she thinks my wife and I are a little too subserviant to our son’s sleep schedule. She asked why we couldn’t go to evening Mass the night before, I explained his dinner time is around then, and she let out an exasperated sigh. She voiced her annoyance that we are unilaterally telling her which day to celebrate her birthday on.

**No, she can celebrate it any day she wants to.
**
To keep the peace, I finally said that I would make the trip solo on the actual bday - and my parents seem happy about that.

That’s not great.

My wife is livid, and says that my mother is being manipulative. I don’t like the way it was such a big deal to my mother, I’ll grant that, but in terms of it actually being manipulative, I don’t know, that seems like a stretch. A sticking point with my wife is that my mother essentially questioned our parenting in order to get her way - I responded that the motive isn’t as devious as that, our parenting choices directly impacted her, so she felt she had a right to speak up - if she was just bringing it up in any other circumstance, it would be like she was being nosey. And as far as questioning our parenting, yea, I suppose that she did, but I dont know, if something seems drastically different than how you parented, and you’re close with the person doing it, is it really so off-base to question it?

This must sound very trivial, but its taking quite a toll, and I’d really appreciate any feedback you can give on how my mother acted.

I don’t think the terminology is important. The problem is that your mom can’t take no for an answer and is willing to subject you to a terrible weekend drive just so you’re there and also willing to take you away from your wife and kids all day. Neither of those is a loving thing to do. Do you know how many sons would just leave it at a phone call or not even call on their mom’s birthday–a lot.

Grownups don’t treat their birthdays as if they were national emergencies. If somebody can come for your birthday, that’s great and if they can’t, it’s OK.

It’s OK to go this time, but don’t do this again. Once you and your wife decide on a plan, stick to it. Otherwise, the most obnoxious person in the family is always going to get their way.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Had some recent family drama over not wanting to drive down to visit my mother on her birthday but on the day before. This year, her birthday falls on a Sunday - its the weekend, but we have an infant son who is a terror in the car (its a 2 hr drive), and, whereas on a saturday we can leave first thing and time it with his morning nap, on Sunday, we need to take into account Mass, which delays the trip and makes it off sync with his nap schedule.

For the reason above, I told my mom we’d be coming down the day before her birthday. She was bothered by this - and really did not believe it was a big deal, as both days were part of the weekend and we should have been able to make it on a Sunday. She pointed out that she and my father brought us kids to see our grandparents (2 hrs away) all the time, and I got the impression she thinks my wife and I are a little too subserviant to our son’s sleep schedule. She asked why we couldn’t go to evening Mass the night before, I explained his dinner time is around then, and she let out an exasperated sigh. She voiced her annoyance that we are unilaterally telling her which day to celebrate her birthday on.

To keep the peace, I finally said that I would make the trip solo on the actual bday - and my parents seem happy about that.

My wife is livid, and says that my mother is being manipulative. I don’t like the way it was such a big deal to my mother, I’ll grant that, but in terms of it actually being manipulative, I don’t know, that seems like a stretch. A sticking point with my wife is that my mother essentially questioned our parenting in order to get her way - I responded that the motive isn’t as devious as that, our parenting choices directly impacted her, so she felt she had a right to speak up - if she was just bringing it up in any other circumstance, it would be like she was being nosey. And as far as questioning our parenting, yea, I suppose that she did, but I dont know, if something seems drastically different than how you parented, and you’re close with the person doing it, is it really so off-base to question it?

This must sound very trivial, but its taking quite a toll, and I’d really appreciate any feedback you can give on how my mother acted.

A couple of thoughts.

and I got the impression she thinks my wife and I are a little too subserviant to our son’s sleep schedule.

You probably are.

She voiced her annoyance that we are unilaterally telling her which day to celebrate her birthday on.

Either she is selfish or she is manipulating you with guilt for “her special day” which is not what a birthday really should be about.

To keep the peace,I actually laughed at that because there is no way whatever came after that phrase kept the peace… I finally said that I would make the trip solo on the actual bday - and my parents seem happy about that.

Horrible compromise. You gave in to her foot stamping.

My wife is livid,LOL how is that keeping the peace working out for you? and says that my mother is being manipulative. I don’t like the way it was such a big deal to my mother, I’ll grant that, but in terms of it actually being manipulative, I don’t know, that seems like a stretch.

It is manipulative. That you don’t see it is alarming. Does your wife think you are kind of a mama’s boy?

A sticking point with my wife is that my mother essentially questioned our parenting in order to get her way - I responded that the motive isn’t as devious as that, our parenting choices directly impacted her, so she felt she had a right to speak up - if she was just bringing it up in any other circumstance, it would be like she was being nosey. And as far as questioning our parenting, yea, I suppose that she did, but I dont know, if something seems drastically different than how you parented, and you’re close with the person doing it, is it really so off-base to question it?

You defended you mom to your wife like that!!?? Wow. Is the couch comfortable?
I side with your wife. It is time for you to be your own man with your own family. It is time for you to be on your wife’s team and move beyond the fact that you are your moms little boy and she wants you to drop everything for her birthday. The compromise that was acceptable (the day before) was rejected by her.

I’m going to let you in on a little hint guy to guy.
The reason it seems trivial is because it is not about the Birthday to your mom or your wife. It is the manifestation of frustrations on both parts. Your mom for not having control over her son anymore. And your wife for needing a husband who is his own man and on her team. You better buy her some flowers and maybe, just maybe she will go down and wish your mom a happy birthday on saturday with you, because that is the correct solution.

(Aside from the “sleep schedule” thing I also question your parenting, but not of your child, of your mom.) You gave in.

Mom 1
You and wife 0

Good luck. Take my advice and side with your wife on this. I guarantee your bed is more comfortable than your mom’s couch…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I ran this by my wife and she agrees with me but also points out that the eating and sleeping schedule thing is a little odd.
She thinks this is your first child.

 

[Xantippe]

I buy the importance of keeping baby on baby’s schedule and avoiding 5 PM Mass with small children. Schedules are beautiful! Schedules make sure that everybody is fresh and rested and happy!

(I’m a real extremist with regard to not messing with a baby who is on a good sleep schedule. I don’t even really believe in travelling by air with 10 month old-3 year olds. It’s just a misery for everybody involved, at least in my experience.)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I buy the importance of keeping baby on baby’s schedule and avoiding 5 PM Mass with small children. Schedules are beautiful! Schedules make sure that everybody is fresh and rested and happy!

(I’m a real extremist with regard to not messing with a baby who is on a good sleep schedule. I don’t even really believe in travelling by air with 10 month old-3 year olds. It’s just a misery for everybody involved, at least in my experience.)

Yeah, I am a big believer in schedules my kids all nap at the same time every day and we start homeschooling at the same time. But we have an advantage because they have always been able to sleep when they wish because we homeschool and I stay home. BUT I have taken 4 kids one an infant and a dog across the country by myself just to visit relatives and if my wife and I wish to hang out at a friends house to watch a late football game then we can. No need to let the schedule dictate our lives. And if we alter the schedule for a special event or day, then it is noticeable the next day and it takes me a day or two to get back on track. But the more kids you have the less strict you are on the schedule. Life just happens. I would go insane if I had to keep the schedule no matter what.

 

[Xantippe]

For the reason above, I told my mom we’d be coming down the day before her birthday. She was bothered by this - and really did not believe it was a big deal, as both days were part of the weekend and we should have been able to make it on a Sunday. She pointed out that she and my father brought us kids to see our grandparents (2 hrs away) all the time, and I got the impression she thinks my wife and I are a little too subserviant to our son’s sleep schedule.

A script for a thought you can keep to yourself: “You suffered on all those drives to see grandma and grandpa, so we need to suffer, too.”

Bear in mind for the future, the roads work both ways. If grandma wants to see kids, grandma can come see kids.

 

[PennyinCanada]

When you grow up with a mother like that, you don’t know any different. It’s going to take you some time to see a different way of handling her. She’s going to keep doing what works for her. It might help in the future to say that you’ll think about it and get back to her, then have a chat with your wife.

She did not have any consideration for your wife and family, and what works best for you as a husband and dad. Even when you explained to her (you didn’t need to even go there, it’s between your wife and you what’s best) she still insisted. Come on, really? Her birthday? She’s a big girl now. Saturday should have been just fine.

I wonder what she would have said if you replied that oh, we can’t make it Sunday. Guess we’ll have to take a raincheck on that visit. Say hi to dad for us! By explaining details you gave her the opportunity to shoot your reasons down. Maybe keep your reasons between you and your wife since mum will use that to her advantage. She made it a chess game and she won that round. That’s ok, as time goes, you’ll get smarter.

Another mother would have said something like…Whenever you can make it down, dear, we’d be happy to see you. Let us know when you’ll be here.

 

[underacloud]

I’m not a fan of overly scheduled baby nap and feeding times. They get in the way of planning family activities, as they have done here.

Quite apart from whether your mum was right or wrong, I’d suggest you just suck it up, go to mass on Saturday night, feed the baby either before or after mass, and drive up on Sunday morning.

Getting a baby used to a more flexible schedule pays off in the long term. And BTW, there is no chance you can apply a similarly scheduled approach once you have two, three, or more children. You might as well embrace a more flexible approach now and save the hassle.

 

[PennyinCanada]

I’m not a fan of overly scheduled baby nap and feeding times. They get in the way of planning family activities, as they have done here.

Quite apart from whether your mum was right or wrong, I’d suggest you just suck it up, go to mass on Saturday night, feed the baby either before or after mass, and drive up on Sunday morning.

Getting a baby used to a more flexible schedule pays off in the long term. And BTW, there is no chance you can apply a similarly scheduled approach once you have two, three, or more children. You might as well embrace a more flexible approach now and save the hassle.

That’s funny, that’s what I wanted to say about grandma, that she suck it up and learn to be more flexible! lol

Right now, mom and baby are figuring things out and it’s a kindness to let them decide when they will come over. Grandma doesn’t seem to be concerned about keeping the peace here or being kind, and that’s sad.

 

[underacloud]

That’s funny, that’s what I wanted to say about grandma, that she suck it up and learn to be more flexible! lol

That would be fair enough. The problem is that grandma isn’t posting here and so we can only really advise things within the OP’s control.

Right now, mom and baby are figuring things out and it’s a kindness to let them decide when they will come over. Grandma doesn’t seem to be concerned about keeping the peace here or being kind, and that’s sad.

Yes, mum and baby will be fighting things out. I think many parents - especially first time round - let the baby dictate too much.

Frankly, not being able to go to Saturday night mass because it’s baby’s dinner time would probably elicit a sigh from me too!

I think there can be greater flexibility on both parts here. But since we’re talking to the OP and not his mom, these are things I suggest he can consider.

PS I understand that some people like to celebrate their birthdays on the particular day. I’m not that way inclined, but I know people who are. Maybe it’s a little precious, but not worth fighting over.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is just arguing. She wants to celebrate her birthday on her birthday and you want her to celebrate it on a day that suits you. If you’re going to say she’s manipulating you by not wanting to move her celebration from Sunday, you may as well see that you could be seen as manipulating her by trying to force her to have it on Saturday to suit you. (I say this because not everybody has a strict schedule for their infants. You had a good reason to set it, but it is your schedule. It didn’t come home from the hospital with the baby, and if something in your life was pressing enough, you’d be forced to change it and live with that.)

Is there any way to put a baby in a car for four hours in one day without throwing him off his routine? Does anyone want to be in a car with an infant goes ballistic when he’s nearly two hours from their destination? Doesn’t Murphy’s Law make that a very real possibility?

The long and short of it is that it is probably going to make both Grandma and the baby much happier if the baby stays home this year while Grandma has her birthday celebration on the originally planned day. If Grandma is OK with her grandson and DIL missing the party for the sake of the baby’s comfort and you are OK with driving the distance by yourself for the sake of your mom’s pleasure, that is actually a decent compromise.

 

[Xantippe]

This is just arguing. She wants to celebrate her birthday on her birthday and you want her to celebrate it on a day that suits you. If you’re going to say she’s manipulating you by not wanting to move her celebration from Sunday, you may as well see that you could be seen as manipulating her by trying to force her to have it on Saturday to suit you. (I say this because not everybody has a strict schedule for their infants. You had a good reason to set it, but it is your schedule. It didn’t come home from the hospital with the baby, and if something in your life was pressing enough, you’d be forced to change it and live with that.)

Is there any way to put a baby in a car for four hours in one day without throwing him off his routine? Does anyone want to be in a car with an infant goes ballistic when he’s nearly two hours from their destination? Doesn’t Murphy’s Law make that a very real possibility?

The long and short of it is that it is probably going to make both Grandma and the baby much happier if the baby stays home this year while Grandma has her birthday celebration on the originally planned day. If Grandma is OK with her grandson and DIL missing the party for the sake of the baby’s comfort and you are OK with driving the distance by yourself for the sake of your mom’s pleasure, that is actually a decent compromise.

What does grandma do when her birthday falls on a Tuesday? It can’t always fall on the weekend.

 

[Psalm98]

This is just arguing. She wants to celebrate her birthday on her birthday and you want her to celebrate it on a day that suits you. If you’re going to say she’s manipulating you by not wanting to move her celebration from Sunday, you may as well see that you could be seen as manipulating her by trying to force her to have it on Saturday to suit you. (I say this because not everybody has a strict schedule for their infants. You had a good reason to set it, but it is your schedule. It didn’t come home from the hospital with the baby, and if something in your life was pressing enough, you’d be forced to change it and live with that.)

Is there any way to put a baby in a car for four hours in one day without throwing him off his routine? Does anyone want to be in a car with an infant goes ballistic when he’s nearly two hours from their destination? Doesn’t Murphy’s Law make that a very real possibility?

The long and short of it is that it is probably going to make both Grandma and the baby much happier if the baby stays home this year while Grandma has her birthday celebration on the originally planned day. If Grandma is OK with her grandson and DIL missing the party for the sake of the baby’s comfort and you are OK with driving the distance by yourself for the sake of your mom’s pleasure, that is actually a decent compromise.

Dear EasterJoy, the respect I have for you and your posts is absolutely tremendous. But I simply cannot agree with you on this one. The issue of the baby’s schedule is not really the point. The point is, this grandmother is acting like a child, and her little “sigh” and comments got her son to change his plans, even if it wasn’t OK with his wife or good for his family. If my husband did something like this, well…as Hoosier Daddy said, let’s hope that couch is comfortable.

 

[forever47]

I see it as being about boundaries and mom is not respecting yours, so yes, it is manipulation. She kept working on you until she got her desired answer rather than respecting your answer and leaving it at that. I suspect this isn’t the first time this sort of thing has happened (maybe not about a birthday, but in other things) and unless you stop giving into her and require her to respect your boundaries, she never will.

Also another thing to think about… It is my belief that a mother should be the number one female in her son’s life UNTIL his wedding day. On that day she becomes the number 2 female in his life with the wife taking the number 1 position. And yes, I am the mother of 2 grown sons, 1 of them married.

 

[Petaro]

There is a general rule on this one. If you are arguing with a woman you are being manipulated. If you are a woman arguing with a woman the two cancel each other out and you are arguing. Humility, giving of yourself, and sacrifice will not win the argument but will be good for your soul. Consider her your own personal bottle of brasso and love her for it. (Protect your husband as he is only a man and completely out of his depth in the discussion.)

 

[Psalm98]

I see it as being about boundaries and mom is not respecting yours, so yes, it is manipulation. She kept working on you until she got her desired answer rather than respecting your answer and leaving it at that. I suspect this isn’t the first time this sort of thing has happened (maybe not about a birthday, but in other things) and unless you stop giving into her and require her to respect your boundaries, she never will.

Also another thing to think about… It is my belief that a mother should be the number one female in her son’s life UNTIL his wedding day. On that day she becomes the number 2 female in his life with the wife taking the number 1 position. And yes, I am the mother of 2 grown sons, 1 of them married.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Awesome post. :tiphat:

 

[Lorelei12]

It does sound kind of like you are “subservient” to your baby’s nap schedule. I admit that sometimes I get a little exasperated when certain friends of ours are so rigid and inflexible with their kids’ schedules that they can’t be bothered to move things even one single hour, it just seems like a little much. I get trying to stick to a schedule most of the time, it’s important, but never making any kind of exception? Who knows though, I could be eating my words soon when our baby is born.

That being said, I do think your mother is being manipulative and that your wife is right. While I do think most people can move their baby’s schedule for one day to accommodate a special occasion, the point is that your mother was disrespectful of your decision and while I agree that she wasn’t being “devious”, she should have either said “Okay, see you Saturday” or “Saturday doesn’t work for me, sorry we won’t see you”. You’re the parents, you get to decide when you go places and how to handle the baby, and that’s that. I’d be mad too, if I were your wife. It doesn’t matter how your parents raised you- they got to do things their way, and you get to do things yours.

Honestly, it seems like you found an okay compromise- you will see your mother on her birthday, and the baby gets his naptime. If she’s inflexible with you and you’re inflexible with her, it sounds like it will work out for everyone. But next time, I would not give her any reasons for anything and make sure she knows that the decisions you and your wife make are not up for discussion.

 

[heidi_storage]

Our baby doesn’t like carseats–but when she was younger, she hated them with the fiery passion that should be reserved for the fires of Gehenna. If we hadn’t timed our two-hour trips to the grandparents’ to coincide with her nap, it would have been subjecting us to two hours of screaming each way. So, I am in COMPLETE sympathy with the OP on that point. As far as feeding goes, they could be more flexible–probably–but the baby might have digestive sensitivities that make moving meals unpleasant, too.

Bottom line: Babies grow up. Grandma already has. I don’t think I’d label her tantrum “manipulative,” but the OP really should have stuck by his wife.

 

[Xantippe]

It does sound kind of like you are “subservient” to your baby’s nap schedule. I admit that sometimes I get a little exasperated when certain friends of ours are so rigid and inflexible with their kids’ schedules that they can’t be bothered to move things even one single hour, it just seems like a little much. I get trying to stick to a schedule most of the time, it’s important, but never making any kind of exception? Who knows though, I could be eating my words soon when our baby is born.

**The problem is, you can’t really make the baby sleep or stay awake at will.

One thing you’ll eventually discover is the hazard of unplanned car naps. Let’s say you were hoping baby would take a nice big nap in the afternoon so you can get some stuff done or take a nap yourself, but you dawdle a little and wind up coming home later from an outing than planned. Baby falls asleep in the car and then (unless you are very, very lucky), baby awakens totally refreshed just as you pull baby out of the carseat at home. No nap or chores for you, mommy! Hope you didn’t have anything important to get done!

That’s the sort of situation that the nap rigorists are trying to avoid.**

It doesn’t matter how your parents raised you- they got to do things their way, and you get to do things yours.

Yep. Possible verbiage: "I’m glad that worked out well for you, mom."

Honestly, it seems like you found an okay compromise- you will see your mother on her birthday, and the baby gets his naptime. If she’s inflexible with you and you’re inflexible with her, it sounds like it will work out for everyone. But next time, I would not give her any reasons for anything and make sure she knows that the decisions you and your wife make are not up for discussion.

Yes. “I’ll have to talk to Wife about that” or “I’ll have to talk to Husband about that,” is what you say when you are getting pressure from a parent. Then you can talk to your spouse and come back and tell mom, “Wife and I have decided that we can all either come on Saturday or all stay home and try again next year. Which would you prefer?”