Manipulation vs just arguing

[maryjk]

When you grow up with a mother like that, you don’t know any different. It’s going to take you some time to see a different way of handling her. She’s going to keep doing what works for her. It might help in the future to say that you’ll think about it and get back to her, then have a chat with your wife.

My husband grew up with a mother like that.

She wanted just him to come visit her on Mother’s Day. When he asked, “what about maryjk?” She told him that I could spend the day with the baby, our son. At the time, I was a stay at home mom, so I spent every day with my son. As the mom of a baby/toddler, I was hoping to be pampered just a little. Or at least not spend the day as though it was just like every other day.

Luckily, my husband and I had already been dealing with her for a couple of years. So he knew that she wanted things her way or no way.

She did not have any consideration for your wife and family, and what works best for you as a husband and dad. Even when you explained to her (you didn’t need to even go there, it’s between your wife and you what’s best) she still insisted. Come on, really? Her birthday? She’s a big girl now. Saturday should have been just fine.

Yep.
At some point mothers of married sons and daughters have to realize that the new family comes first. That plans are made based on the new family’s needs.

I wonder what she would have said if you replied that oh, we can’t make it Sunday. Guess we’ll have to take a raincheck on that visit. Say hi to dad for us! By explaining details you gave her the opportunity to shoot your reasons down. Maybe keep your reasons between you and your wife since mum will use that to her advantage. She made it a chess game and she won that round. That’s ok, as time goes, you’ll get smarter.

Another mother would have said something like…Whenever you can make it down, dear, we’d be happy to see you. Let us know when you’ll be here.

Again, yep. It only took a couple of times of us saying, sorry, we can’t meet your demands, so we just won’t come at all. She changed her tune. Of course she would still try to tell her son that he needed to see to her needs. But he would let her know that they weren’t needs, they were wants.

 

[EasterJoy]

Dear EasterJoy, the respect I have for you and your posts is absolutely tremendous. But I simply cannot agree with you on this one. The issue of the baby’s schedule is not really the point. The point is, this grandmother is acting like a child, and her little “sigh” and comments got her son to change his plans, even if it wasn’t OK with his wife or good for his family. If my husband did something like this, well…as Hoosier Daddy said, let’s hope that couch is comfortable.

You’re right, the baby’s schedule is not the point. The point is that the new parents are presuming to set someone else’s social schedule and feeling put out if everyone else doesn’t bend over backwards to do it. It is great if others do that, but the parents aren’t entitled to expect it.

In my family of origin, my grandparents had nearly 50 grandchildren. No one expected this kind of accommodation, because frankly, that’s all the extended family would have gotten done for literally decades. Nor does the expectation die with infancy, once it gets started. When the child gets older, other aspects of the child’s schedule (such as sports tournaments) will come to be a reason to expect the family to change when they have their social events.

The grandparents are willing to excuse the new mother and infant from coming, so that *the parents *can accommodate the child’s schedule. That is the way children are normally accommodated. The world marches on, and the nuclear family works around everyone else, dropping out of the march when necessary, and everyone lets them do it. As for Grandma’s little sigh, it was not the height of graciousness, but it was not manipulative, either. There are manipulative in-laws out there, but this incident does not qualify this grandmother as one of them.

I say this having had the experience of being trapped for an extended period of time in a car with *two *screaming infants on more than one occasion, for the purpose of attending family events, and also of being excused because no one blamed me for not wanting to put our little family through a repeat. It was not my extended family’s work to change their gathering times to accommodate us. It was our job to decide if our children were up to the trip, or if we were up to taking them. All we asked was for everyone to be willing to excuse us graciously if they were not. We did the same for them when their babies were young, and it worked out fine.

 

[EasterJoy]

My husband grew up with a mother like that.

She wanted just him to come visit her on Mother’s Day. When he asked, “what about maryjk?” She told him that I could spend the day with the baby, our son. At the time, I was a stay at home mom, so I spent every day with my son. As the mom of a baby/toddler, I was hoping to be pampered just a little. Or at least not spend the day as though it was just like every other day.

Luckily, my husband and I had already been dealing with her for a couple of years. So he knew that she wanted things her way or no way. Yep.
At some point mothers of married sons and daughters have to realize that the new family comes first. That plans are made based on the new family’s needs.
Again, yep. It only took a couple of times of us saying, sorry, we can’t meet your demands, so we just won’t come at all. She changed her tune. Of course she would still try to tell her son that he needed to see to her needs. But he would let her know that they weren’t needs, they were wants.

It is not manipulative to tell someone who tries to make an invitation into a command performance that you can’t make the time they set. There was nothing wrong with this son telling his mom that his wife and baby wouldn’t be coming if the party was on Sunday because–sorry, Mom–the family wasn’t up to four hours with a baby screaming because they decided to ignore his biological clock. (It could even be a simple: Sorry, Mom, we can’t make it on Sunday. We can do Saturday, but not Sunday. She doesn’t have the right to judge whether their reasons are “good enough” to refuse her.) It was Grandma’s choice after that to either move the party or live with the fact that not everyone could make her preferred time. She chose the latter. If she starts in on the son that he should have brought the whole family, he is fully in his parental rights to tell her that he told her when they would all be willing to come and what would work for their schedule, and she opted out of that. After that: Case closed.

 

[haedron]

Your mom sounds exactly like my mom. I’ll give you some advice that took me a loooooooong time to figure out: As far as your wife is concerned, if you aren’t taking her side, you’re taking your mom’s. It’s an all or nothing, “you’re with me or against me” type of attitude. Is that right or fair? Doesn’t matter.

I’m sure this isn’t the first time your mom has done this, and it won’t be the last. You also probably feel like you’re trying to “compromise” and not take sides. Trust me, you’re taking sides and you’re not comprimising anything except for your marriage with your wife.

The very best thing that you can do is to get on the same page with your wife and stick to the plan. If you need or want to deviate from what you and your wife decide in a situation like this, you should talk to your wife before unilaterally deciding to alter the plan.

At this point, your wife probably feels like she’s second fiddle to your mother and I’m sure that doesn’t sit well. It’s probably going to take you a long time (several situations like this) of deferring to your wife and “proving” to her that she comes first before I would even attempt to have a discussion with her about compromising in order to please your mother.

FWIW I think you’re totally within reason to defer to the nap schedule. Kids thrive on a schedule, but we found that the more consistent we were with the routine, the more any deviations from the routine were disruptive. That’s the tradeoff you make for the sanity that a routine provides.

 

[thewanderer]

It is not manipulative to tell someone who tries to make an invitation into a command performance that you can’t make the time they set. There was nothing wrong with this son telling his mom that his wife and baby wouldn’t be coming if the party was on Sunday because–sorry, Mom–the family wasn’t up to four hours with a baby screaming because they decided to ignore his biological clock. (It could even be a simple: Sorry, Mom, we can’t make it on Sunday. We can do Saturday, but not Sunday. She doesn’t have the right to judge whether their reasons are “good enough” to refuse her.) It was Grandma’s choice after that to either move the party or live with the fact that not everyone could make her preferred time. She chose the latter. If she starts in on the son that he should have brought the whole family, he is fully in his parental rights to tell her that he told her when they would all be willing to come and what would work for their schedule, and she opted out of that. After that: Case closed.

Actually, I don’t think the son was trying to move the party to Saturday, but rather just letting her know that is the day he and the family could all make it up there. Then she decided it wasn’t good enough for her son to visit her on Sat and that he had to be there on Sunday because Sunday is her actual Birthday. So to me it sounds as though the mother was absolutely being over the top about it all, demanding that her son come for her birthday party on her birthday itself no matter how inconvenient it is for him and his family. The son finally gave in, without discussing the matter with his wife, and agreed to make this long trip by himself on Sunday.

I have to say I definitely agree with most other people on here who are saying that there is a problem in the dynamic between the husband and mother here and that the husband needs to learn to put his wife and family first a little more rather than allow his mother’s pushing to make him give in to her wants without even talking to his wife about the matter.

 

[EasterJoy]

…The very best thing that you can do is to get on the same page with your wife and stick to the plan. If you need or want to deviate from what you and your wife decide in a situation like this, you should talk to your wife before unilaterally deciding to alter the plan…

This is wise advice.

If, after considering a position put forward by someone outside the family, including a member of his immediate family, *the husband *thinks he and his wife shouldn’t impose their schedules on anyone else, fine. It is his opinion and his wife’s opinion, however, that go to make their decisions. No one else gets a vote, and it should never appear that anyone else does. If he defends his opinion, it ought to be as his opinion. He should never hide behind someone else, their influence “over” him, or their status. If he does not agree with his mom, he shouldn’t go to bat for her opinion with his wife, nor let his wife advance the opinion of someone else that is not her own opinion, too. The couple will be the happiest that way. It will also put them in a good position to avoid letting their child play them some day, one against the other!

 

[EasterJoy]

Actually, I don’t think the son was trying to move the party to Saturday, but rather just letting her know that is the day he and the family could all make it up there. Then she decided it wasn’t good enough for her son to visit her on Sat and that he had to be there on Sunday because Sunday is her actual Birthday. So to me it sounds as though the mother was absolutely being over the top about it all, demanding that her son come for her birthday party on her birthday itself no matter how inconvenient it is for him and his family. The son finally gave in, without discussing the matter with his wife, and agreed to make this long trip by himself on Sunday.

I have to say I definitely agree with most other people on here who are saying that there is a problem in the dynamic between the husband and mother here and that the husband needs to learn to put his wife and family first a little more rather than allow his mother’s pushing to make him give in to her wants without even talking to his wife about the matter.

He would be wise to clarify which options his mother is offering, refrain from saying what he does or does not agree with, with a promise that he will check the family schedule and get back to her later. From the outside of the marriage, IOW, all opinions ought to be “our” opinions, with the clear message that neither spouse makes unilateral decisions and neither spouse cares who does not like it. It is better if no one is given an opening to think they can play one spouse against the other. On that account, it is better for Mom to not hang up the phone with the son having given his opinion only to have him call back with a different one, which Mom will of course blame on her daughter-in-law alone.

 

[thewanderer]

He would be wise to clarify which options his mother is offering, refrain from saying what he does or does not agree with, with a promise that he will check the family schedule and get back to her later. From the outside of the marriage, IOW, all opinions ought to be “our” opinions, with the clear message that neither spouse makes unilateral decisions and neither spouse cares who does not like it. It is better if no one is given an opening to think they can play one spouse against the other. On that account, it is better for Mom to not hang up the phone with the son having given his opinion only to have him call back with a different one, which Mom will of course blame on her daughter-in-law alone.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Oh boy, the OP really screwed this one up.

First things first, you gotta call mom and say “Mom, I’m sorry, I should have checked the schedule before promising to come up Sunday. I have a prior obligation that day. I’m still happy to come over on Saturday, or we can pick another weekend”. Yep, mom will be mad. But you do have a prior obligation, and that’s your wife. When mom inevitably throws a fit, just keep repeating that you’re sorry, but you aren’t going to be able to shuffle these things around.

***I’m usually a big believer in married couples explaining plans with ‘we’, but in this case, you made this mess, and to protect your wife from taking undeserved heat, you need to own up and say that you are the one with a prior obligation and your wife and child aside, Sunday will just not work for you.

In the future, you cannot make plans with your mom without running it by your wife first. I’m sorry, but the day you got married you chose to put your wife ahead of mom every time. So…now it’s time to fulfill your obligations as a husband and cut the cord.

And for what it’s worth, I do think that your mother was being manipulative. No other word for an adult who lays on such a heavy guilt trip about getting to celebrate her birthday with her son, DIL, and grandchild ONE WHOLE DAY EARLY. Yes, your mom is a manipulator, and the sooner that you are able to recognize that, the better prepared you will be to guard you and your family against it.

 

[Kelfa28]

I think someone else said it…I scanned through the posts…but I wouldn’t make decisions that require her (name removed by moderator)ut for your wife.
You probably should have told your mother you would get back to her and discuss the situation with her before you made a decision.

Personally, I’m in the middle of the road on this one.
You know your child better then us.

Some kids need naps, others need to be fed at certain times and others need high levels of activity at certain points throughout the day.
While I don’t think parents should be slaves to a strict schedule…I think it’s unreasonable to force a child to do things you know will result in melt downs and increased levels of difficulty.

From what I read…what you proposed seemed completely reasonable.

Was she planning a party that the entire family was expected to show up for or was it just an invite between you, your wife and your child?

I think a personal invite…with no other plans…should be flexible. A party? Not so much but there should still be room for some flexibility such as arriving early or leaving early.

I’m with your wife on the fact that this seriously sounds like manipulation on your Mother’s part. She sounded like she was whining about the fact that she wasn’t getting her way.

My husband, the kids and I went to a family reunion this summer. We worked around the kid’s schedules and but made it clear to the hosts that we couldn’t stay too long because my youngest cannot last much past 6 pm without a nap.

We were there for about 3 hours and there was no place for my youngest to nap (she can’t stand the car seat and won’t nap in it). She was getting to the point where we needed to bring her home.

Several relatives clucked disapproval and wanted us to stay longer. My husband and I took one look at each other and thanked them for the fun party and packed up and left. We knew our kids took precedent at that point and there was no need to argue.

 

[Xantippe]

We were there for about 3 hours and there was no place for my youngest to nap (she can’t stand the car seat and won’t nap in it). She was getting to the point where we needed to bring her home.

Several relatives clucked disapproval and wanted us to stay longer. My husband and I took one look at each other and thanked them for the fun party and packed up and left. We knew our kids took precedent at that point and there was no need to argue.

Gah.

And if you’d stayed and the baby had wailed, they would have clucked even harder.
Have you ever noticed that a lot of people forget all about the realities of dealing with small children once they no longer have any at home themselves? It’s like they get hit with the memory eraser from Men in Black. (There’s a grandpa in my family who believes that mothers have a special magical ability to make babies stop crying at will under any circumstances. If we don’t exercise it, it’s just sheer cussedness or incompetence on our part. I remember once being in a car with him and a crying baby that I knew would fall asleep in the car if the baby just had another ten minutes of vehicular motion, it being his nap time. I explained that, but the grandpa still believed that there was some other solution that I was failing to provide.)

 

[EasterJoy]

***I’m usually a big believer in married couples explaining plans with ‘we’, but in this case, you made this mess, and to protect your wife from taking undeserved heat, you need to own up and say that you are the one with a prior obligation and your wife and child aside, Sunday will just not work for you.

If he and his wife decide that he should not go, then yes, he ought to take the heat all by himself, deflecting it from her.

 

[newf]

A couple of my daughters are moms with young children and I can tell you that both of them would be very upset to have their husbands leaving them with the baby for a day on the weekend. They cherish the weekends.

OP, your mom is out of line. It IS hard dealing with little ones’ schedules. You offered what worked for your family but your mom wouldn’t have it. She showed you no respect and you caved. You look weak.

In battles between your mom and your wife, you need to always choose your wife if you want to have a happy home.

 

[struggling4him]

just wanted to thank everyone for their responses - you have really helped me a lot.

just because some people had asked, I’ll point out - my wife and I did agree that my going solo was an acceptable compromise - in advance - its just once my mother accepted it, my wife felt anger that she had “gotten her way” and that celebrating her birthday on the specific day was more important to her than having her daughter-in-law and grandson there.

Thank you all - my wife asked me to either go to counseling or post something like this in a message forum because, as a few of you have stated, it came across as frightening that I did not think my mother’s behavior was that terrible. I think I needed to hear it from neutral parties.

Also, for those of you who have remarked, yes this is not the first time my mother has done something like this. I had a long talk with my mother earlier today - thanks in part to your posts - telling her I didnt like the way this was done, I was grown, had a wife and son and she needed to respect that. The talk was uncomfortable, but productive, and the greeting my wife gave me when I came home was well worth it.

Thanks to you all and God bless!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

just wanted to thank everyone for their responses - you have really helped me a lot.

just because some people had asked, I’ll point out - my wife and I did agree that my going solo was an acceptable compromise - in advance - its just once my mother accepted it, my wife felt anger that she had “gotten her way” and that celebrating her birthday on the specific day was more important to her than having her daughter-in-law and grandson there.

Thank you all - my wife asked me to either go to counseling or post something like this in a message forum because, as a few of you have stated, it came across as frightening that I did not think my mother’s behavior was that terrible. I think I needed to hear it from neutral parties.

Also, for those of you who have remarked, yes this is not the first time my mother has done something like this. I had a long talk with my mother earlier today - thanks in part to your posts - telling her I didnt like the way this was done, I was grown, had a wife and son and she needed to respect that. The talk was uncomfortable, but productive, and the greeting my wife gave me when I came home was well worth it.

Thanks to you all and God bless!

Good to hear!

 

[PennyinCanada]

just because some people had asked, I’ll point out - my wife and I did agree that my going solo was an acceptable compromise - in advance - its just once my mother accepted it, my wife felt anger that she had “gotten her way” and that** celebrating her birthday on the specific day was more important to her than having her daughter-in-law and grandson there.**

Seeing that, know she doesn’t mind creating conflict between the 2 of you, which is alarming. Being able to see that means that you are ahead of the game now.

 

[EasterJoy]

Seeing that, know she doesn’t mind creating conflict between the 2 of you, which is alarming. Being able to see that means that you are ahead of the game now.

That is a projection that pretends to be able to read her motives, rather than a point of fact. We get along with other people a lot better if we don’t pretend we can read their minds and don’t make their worst showing into their durable mode of operation. That much is only what we’d hope from them for ourselves.

By all means, draw boundaries. “Good fences make good neighbors,” yes! It is better to not shoot anyone who crosses them, though. You find yourself in a lot of family feuds that didn’t have to happen, when you do that.

 

[underacloud]

my wife asked me to either go to counseling or post something like this in a message forum because, as a few of you have stated, it came across as frightening that I did not think my mother’s behavior was that terrible.

Unless this is an ongoing pattern in your marriage and/or you have other serious marriage issues, this seems like a massive over-reaction from your wife and potentially more manipulative than anything your mum did.

Looks like you have two women competing for your time and attention. I do not envy you.

My two cents: for the future, with you mother, family, friends or anyone really. NEVER, repeat NEVER give details of why you cannot make an event. Once you start explaining it seems you “open the door” to critique and criticisms.

Ordinarily, I think it’s pretty reasonable that a reason is given for not attending an important family event. If there are ongoing problems, like you described, this would change things, but I don’t think it can be suggested as a general rule.

 

[EasterJoy]

Unless this is an ongoing pattern in your marriage and/or you have other serious marriage issues, this seems like a massive over-reaction from your wife and potentially more manipulative than anything your mum did.

Looks like you have two women competing for your time and attention. I do not envy you.

Ordinarily, I think it’s pretty reasonable that a reason is given for not attending an important family event. If there are ongoing problems, like you described, this would change things, but I don’t think it can be suggested as a general rule.

They are new parents still figuring out how to draw their boundaries and balance the demands of the extended family (on both sides) with the needs of their nuclear domestic Church. I would not read more into it that his wife was upset about this than I’d read into his mother making the case for what she wants more strongly than they’d like.

If his mother gets into a habit of treating reasons as an invitation to give a judgment on whether the reasons are good enough, then you quit giving reasons. You just say, “Oh, sorry, Sunday won’t work for us. That’s too bad, because I’d rather not miss your birthday, and I know Sharon would like to bring the baby, too. Maybe we can come down on Saturday and take you out to lunch, though.” (Or you suggest that only the son can come Sunday, or whatever you have decided to offer without resentment…if you are going to resent giving it, then don’t offer it.)

These are things that different families learn to handle differently, as the years go by. I agree with those who suggest that each spouse take on handling his or her own family, within the parameters that the couple decides and calls “our plan,” “our decision,” “our schedule,” “our reasons,” and so on.

 

[underacloud]

They are new parents still figuring out how to draw their boundaries and balance the demands of the extended family (on both sides) with the needs of their nuclear domestic Church. I would not read more into it that his wife was upset about this than I’d read into his mother making the case for what she wants more strongly than they’d like.

You may be right. The suggestion (threat?) of counselling just jumped out as something that seemed very strange. Given the wife suggested this thread, there’s a strong possibility that she’s reading it, so I think it’s just as reasonable to comment on, and challenge, her role in this as it is to comment on the mother’s.

If his mother gets into a habit of treating reasons as an invitation to give a judgment on whether the reasons are good enough, then you quit giving reasons. You just say, “Oh, sorry, Sunday won’t work for us. That’s too bad, because I’d rather not miss your birthday, and I know Sharon would like to bring the baby, too. Maybe we can come down on Saturday and take you out to lunch, though.” (Or you suggest that only the son can come Sunday, or whatever you have decided to offer without resentment…if you are going to resent giving it, then don’t offer it.)

Yes, if it becomes a habit then these sorts of tactics may be needed. But adopting this approach too early may create greater problems than it solves. It is a careful balancing act.

These are things that different families learn to handle differently, as the years go by. I agree with those who suggest that each spouse take on handling his or her own family, within the parameters that the couple decides and calls “our plan,” “our decision,” “our schedule,” “our reasons,” and so on.

Completely agree!