Manipulation vs just arguing

[EasterJoy]

You may be right. The suggestion (threat?) of counselling just jumped out as something that seemed very strange. Given the wife suggested this thread, there’s a strong possibility that she’s reading it, so I think it’s just as reasonable to comment on, and challenge, her role in this as it is to comment on the mother’s.

Yes, if it becomes a habit then these sorts of tactics may be needed. But adopting this approach too early may create greater problems than it solves. It is a careful balancing act.

Completely agree!

Yes, the ideal is that you tell your relatives your reasons, and they help you to work around them in a way that* you *choose.

It is hard for parents to adjust to the grandparent role, and hard for parents to confront the problems when their parents don’t adjust gracefully. I don’t blame the wife for finding this little interchange alarming, because if it is extrapolated out into the rest of her life, it looks too much like Everybody Loves Raymond. That show was funny to watch, but it isn’t fun to live in it!

It is a little too soon to start extrapolating. They went through this and will probably realize that they proposed a solution that they would resent. I think in the future, they won’t do that. They’ll choose alternatives that are all ways of dealing with the issue that they can live with making into a precedent.

Live and learn…they’re early in the game. They’re both on the same side. They’ll do OK. Their in-laws will probably do OK, too. There will be issues, but they’ll do OK. That is the best we get on this side of the cleansing fire of Purgatory.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You may be right. The suggestion (threat?) of counselling just jumped out as something that seemed very strange. Given the wife suggested this thread, there’s a strong possibility that she’s reading it, so I think it’s just as reasonable to comment on, and challenge, her role in this as it is to comment on the mother’s.

I took the suggestion of counseling as a HUGE indicator that this is not a one time problem with the OP and his mom. That there is more to it than the whole BD fiasco. The wife thinks there is something there that may need correcting. I tend to think that as well. The OP also came back and acknowledged a aspect of the problem that he did not really see before. I think that is a good step in the right direction.

 

[underacloud]

I took the suggestion of counseling as a HUGE indicator that this is not a one time problem with the OP and his mom. That there is more to it than the whole BD fiasco. The wife thinks there is something there that may need correcting. I tend to think that as well. The OP also came back and acknowledged a aspect of the problem that he did not really see before. I think that is a good step in the right direction.

Yeah, that may be the case. The mother and wife are perhaps fighting a bit of a turf war here and the OP is oblivious to it. And as you said earlier, this round has gone to the mum (and thus the wife is “livid”).

But the real winner is baby. Nap and feeding schedule firmly protected! Phew. A bit of a near miss though…mum and dad almost considered delaying feeding time by up to a whole hour. Results could have been disastrous.

(yes, I know sarcasm is unattractive, but c’mon people!)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yeah, that may be the case. The mother and wife are perhaps fighting a bit of a turf war here and the OP is oblivious to it. And as you said earlier, this round has gone to the mum (and thus the wife is “livid”).

But the real winner is baby. Nap and feeding schedule firmly protected! Phew. A bit of a near miss though…mum and dad almost considered delaying feeding time by up to a whole hour. Results could have been disasterous.

(yes, I know sarcasm is unattractive, but c’mon people!)

 

[LongingSoul]

If the mother had arranged a party with other family and guests on the Sunday… is it really reasonable to expect that everyone change the plan to fit in with one person?

If it was only just son/wife/child visiting mother for her birthday, that would definitely seem petty on the mothers part.

The circumstances of the celebration make all the difference here.

 

[EasterJoy]

If the mother had arranged a party with other family and guests on the Sunday… is it really reasonable to expect that everyone change the plan to fit in with one person?

If it was only just son/wife/child visiting mother for her birthday, that would definitely seem petty on the mothers part.

The circumstances of the celebration make all the difference here.

I think it is the easiest to just let it be her birthday. If she has her heart set on celebrating it on her actual birthday, even though she has to accept that not everyone can make that, then let her do it. All you ask is that she accept that the more narrow she makes the invitation, the more people there will be who won’t be able to attend. If she lets out a deep sigh over that, well, let her have her sigh, provided she doesn’t get vindictive towards those in the family who don’t come. It is not such a big thing. If we don’t let people manipulate us by rolling their eyes or expelling their breath, we find they aren’t so manipulative as we thought. The vast majority of people let themselves try those little tricks, but are above dialing it up beyond that. It is a fault that can be overlooked, if we only give ourselves the permission to ignore it.

 

[Xantippe]

Yeah, that may be the case. The mother and wife are perhaps fighting a bit of a turf war here and the OP is oblivious to it. And as you said earlier, this round has gone to the mum (and thus the wife is “livid”).

But the real winner is baby. Nap and feeding schedule firmly protected! Phew. A bit of a near miss though…mum and dad almost considered delaying feeding time by up to a whole hour. Results could have been disastrous.

(yes, I know sarcasm is unattractive, but c’mon people!)

Of course it could have been disastrous–what do you think that four hours in a car with an unhappy baby sounds like?

People who are protective of babies’ and toddlers’ schedules generally know what they are doing.

Keeping to a schedule can make the difference between a pleasant day and a hellish day and it’s not nice to pressure young parents with “hey, it will be FUN to keep your baby up in order to see grandma on grandma’s birthday!”. Heck no it won’t.

 

[BillP]

The mother “sighs” over the change of date and the wife gets “livid” over an accommodation she had already agreed to beforehand and its the mother who’s being manipulative?

I don’t think so…

 

[BillP]

Of course it could have been disastrous–what do you think that four hours in a car with an unhappy baby sounds like?

People who are protective of babies’ and toddlers’ schedules generally know what they are doing.

Keeping to a schedule can make the difference between a pleasant day and a hellish day and it’s not nice to pressure young parents with “hey, it will be FUN to keep your baby up in order to see grandma on grandma’s birthday!”. Heck no it won’t.

If infants/toddlers/children are constantly accommodated lest the parents be subjected to a “hellish” day, what kid of adults will emerge from that system?

Tolerating a few ineffective tantrums will go along way toward minimizing the number of tantrums in the future.

When I was a kid, my dad used to tell me “If you don’t hate me at least a couple of times a week, I ain’t doing my job.”…

 

[Xantippe]

If infants/toddlers/children are constantly accommodated lest the parents be subjected to a “hellish” day, what kid of adults will emerge from that system?

Tolerating a few ineffective tantrums will go along way toward minimizing the number of tantrums in the future.

When I was a kid, my dad used to tell me “If you don’t hate me at least a couple of times a week, I ain’t doing my job.”…

I really want to hear you explaining your system to a 9-month-old infant or 15-month-old.

 

[EasterJoy]

The mother “sighs” over the change of date and the wife gets “livid” over an accommodation she had already agreed to beforehand and its the mother who’s being manipulative?

I don’t think so…

Sometimes we are more generous in prospect than we are when the bill comes due. She is a new mother under a lot of stress, and probably worries about balancing her husband’s family with the needs of their own family–and it is a balancing act that takes some time to learn. I would not think either is being manipulative, and I’d not blame either one for suspecting the other of pushing their own way too much. They’re each having to give in, and learn where to give in, and a bit wary of having a mile taken wherever they give an inch. They ought to both be easy on both themselves and on the other party. That is why the commandment is to “love your neighbor as yourself.” Generosity all around! It works.

 

[EasterJoy]

If infants/toddlers/children are constantly accommodated lest the parents be subjected to a “hellish” day, what kid of adults will emerge from that system?

Tolerating a few ineffective tantrums will go along way toward minimizing the number of tantrums in the future.

When I was a kid, my dad used to tell me “If you don’t hate me at least a couple of times a week, I ain’t doing my job.”…

This is not spoken like a man who has spent an hour in a car or airplane with a screaming infant. When they are really tired, they scream just the same whether they are unhappy about the car ride or whether a safety pin has opened and is sticking them in the thigh. If you have not been through it, you cannot believe how long a strong-willed child can keep up full-throated screaming. For little packages, they have serious endurance.

You do not teach an infant anything by letting them cry. They don’t get the message. They are neither permanently scarred nor permanently impressed by an occasional bout of uninterrupted distress, but anyone who chooses that for them by foresight needs to have their head examined. (Well, they could have a strong dislike for car seats until it is proven that a repeat isn’t coming. They do get impressed in that way.) If this was for Grandma’s funeral, sure, you suck it up and make the trip. For what is supposed to be a pleasant luncheon in honor of Grandma turning 75, instead of 75 plus or minus a day, not so much. To refuse to sign up for that is within a parent’s prerogative. It will not spoil the child or make them self-centered or difficult to miss an unpleasant experience that they were blissfully unaware was even under discussion.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Of course it could have been disastrous–what do you think that four hours in a car with an unhappy baby sounds like?

People who are protective of babies’ and toddlers’ schedules generally know what they are doing.

Keeping to a schedule can make the difference between a pleasant day and a hellish day and it’s not nice to pressure young parents with “hey, it will be FUN to keep your baby up in order to see grandma on grandma’s birthday!”. Heck no it won’t.

You know I like to think we have raised our children with a schedule that if we break at our leisure we are not made to pay for by our children.
I think that others have this idea that if you disturb a child, that four hours in a car is unbearable. I would hate to have this kind of parenthood. My children and my family are not slaves to our schedules. We keep them and break them as we wish. You know, like most parents have done since the dawn of time. But somehow in the year 2014 AD we have some sort of societal need to be slaves to our children’s whims. With good effective parenting there is no need to fear a child or breaking their schedule every now and then.

 

[EasterJoy]

You know I like to think we have raised our children with a schedule that if we break at our leisure we are not made to pay for by our children.
I think that others have this idea that if you disturb a child, that four hours in a car is unbearable. I would hate to have this kind of parenthood. My children and my family are not slaves to our schedules. We keep them and break them as we wish. You know, like most parents have done since the dawn of time. But somehow in the year 2014 AD we have some sort of societal need to be slaves to our children’s whims. With good effective parenting there is no need to fear a child or breaking their schedule every now and then.

For our kids, it was just riding backwards. More than 20 minutes or so, and you’d think we’d branded them. Once we switched the seats forward, they were about the best travelers you can imagine. Seriously: three hours, no stopping, no problem–same kids!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

For our kids, it was just riding backwards. More than 20 minutes or so, and you’d think we’d branded them. Once we switched the seats forward, they were about the best travelers you can imagine…hours and hours, no problem.

There have been times where I thought, “just a swerve into an oncoming semi and silence would reign”…

 

[Xantippe]

You know I like to think we have raised our children with a schedule that if we break at our leisure we are not made to pay for by our children.
I think that others have this idea that if you disturb a child, that four hours in a car is unbearable. I would hate to have this kind of parenthood. My children and my family are not slaves to our schedules. We keep them and break them as we wish. You know, like most parents have done since the dawn of time. But somehow in the year 2014 AD we have some sort of societal need to be slaves to our children’s whims. With good effective parenting there is no need to fear a child or breaking their schedule every now and then.

Early 20th century moms also believed in schedules even more fervently than I do.

The infant schedule is not an invention of 2014.

 

[EasterJoy]

There have been times where I thought, “just a swerve into an oncoming semi and silence would reign”…

Nice present for Grandma!! “The good news is, they made it to the party on the right day. The bad news is, they got halfway home and slit their wrists because they were an hour from anywhere and couldn’t take the screaming for another second. Oh well, when it is really important, you make sacrifices!”

 

[EasterJoy]

Early 20th century moms also believed in schedules even more fervently than I do.

The infant schedule is not an invention of 2014.

Well, there is a limit to how much we could possibly need schedules, since we had to go so many millennia without clocks.

Travelling with children has always been a pain, though:
Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days! ** Mark 13:17**

The Lord takes pity on women who have to travel with small children. It isn’t a great indulgence to ask for the rest of us to do the same!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Early 20th century moms also believed in schedules even more fervently than I do.

The infant schedule is not an invention of 2014.

No, you are right, there have been overly cautious scared parents through time. But remember, when the tornado hit the farm, and the family cleaned up after, no one really said “sorry, the baby needs a nap” Our conveniences today have blinded us to the reality of the resilience of kids. And the need for parents to be the ones in charge.

Now, if you will excuse me, my 1 year old needs a diaper change and I forgot to plug in the wipe warmer. The 4 year old needs some positive affirmation, my 7 year old needs to eat within the next 5 minutes and my 9 year old is 2 hours behind on schoolwork today. They might get mad at me…

 

[Xantippe]

No, you are right, there have been overly cautious scared parents through time. But remember, when the tornado hit the farm, and the family cleaned up after, no one really said “sorry, the baby needs a nap” Our conveniences today have blinded us to the reality of the resilience of kids. And the need for parents to be the ones in charge.

Now, if you will excuse me, my 1 year old needs a diaper change and I forgot to plug in the wipe warmer. The 4 year old needs some positive affirmation, my 7 year old needs to eat within the next 5 minutes and my 9 year old is 2 hours behind on schoolwork today. They might get mad at me…

Funny!