Manipulation vs just arguing

[BlueEyedLady]

On the topic of scheduling…can’t you both (Hoosier Daddy and Xantippe) be right? Couldn’t it depend on the child and the family? Some infants and children may react much more strongly to a change in their day, where others may not notice. Likewise, some parents may be more patient, or even just better equipped to deal with an extremely fussy child on the road. For example, my mom was really prone to migraines, so she would probably have to insist on going Saturday. I have a mildly autistic niece, and even as an infant, before she was even diagnosed, she required a very strict schedule or she would be a nightmare for the rest of the day. It would have been very unfair to judge her parents for tiptoeing around her schedule, as she was a child with a lot of special needs, but no one knew that yet.

Where one family may be over the line, perhaps another family is genuinely taking care of their own needs. And doesn’t each family deserve the privacy and the space to make those decisions?

To me, that’s more what the thread is about. The OP and his wife need the space and privacy that allows them to make the best decisions for their own family, and the OP needs to enforce that space and privacy.

 

[maryjk]

To me, that’s more what the thread is about. The OP and his wife need the space and privacy that allows them to make the best decisions for their own family, and the OP needs to enforce that space and privacy.

Exactly.

So much depends on, well, so much. Parent’s temperament, child’s temperament, heck even the grandparent’s temperament all play a part in how things need to be scheduled.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

On the topic of scheduling…can’t you both (Hoosier Daddy and Xantippe) be right? Couldn’t it depend on the child and the family? Some infants and children may react much more strongly to a change in their day, where others may not notice. Likewise, some parents may be more patient, or even just better equipped to deal with an extremely fussy child on the road. For example, my mom was really prone to migraines, so she would probably have to insist on going Saturday. I have a mildly autistic niece, and even as an infant, before she was even diagnosed, she required a very strict schedule or she would be a nightmare for the rest of the day. It would have been very unfair to judge her parents for tiptoeing around her schedule, as she was a child with a lot of special needs, but no one knew that yet.

Where one family may be over the line, perhaps another family is genuinely taking care of their own needs. And doesn’t each family deserve the privacy and the space to make those decisions?

To me, that’s more what the thread is about. The OP and his wife need the space and privacy that allows them to make the best decisions for their own family, and the OP needs to enforce that space and privacy.

Yes, you are exactly right.

 

[UbiCaritas]

On the topic of scheduling…can’t you both (Hoosier Daddy and Xantippe) be right? Couldn’t it depend on the child and the family? Some infants and children may react much more strongly to a change in their day, where others may not notice. Likewise, some parents may be more patient, or even just better equipped to deal with an extremely fussy child on the road. For example, my mom was really prone to migraines, so she would probably have to insist on going Saturday. I have a mildly autistic niece, and even as an infant, before she was even diagnosed, she required a very strict schedule or she would be a nightmare for the rest of the day. It would have been very unfair to judge her parents for tiptoeing around her schedule, as she was a child with a lot of special needs, but no one knew that yet.

Where one family may be over the line, perhaps another family is genuinely taking care of their own needs. And doesn’t each family deserve the privacy and the space to make those decisions?

To me, that’s more what the thread is about. The OP and his wife need the space and privacy that allows them to make the best decisions for their own family, and the OP needs to enforce that space and privacy.

Yep, precisely. I’ve met kids who could have their schedules disrupted or just rather generally loose, and then I had my DD. Any significant deviation from the schedule doesn’t just mean she’s unhappy for a few hours in a car, ghastly as that is. It means that she’ll be up for about two hours in the middle of the night that night and possibly the next one as well. If her schedule isn’t messed with too badly, she sleeps through the night. I do not deal well with sleeping only a few hours here or there.

I don’t know which camp the OP’s kid is in, but I can tell you right now that if my MIL demanded that we come somewhere at the sort of time that would guarantee one or even two really bad nights running, my response would be, “Oh, you’re willing to watch DD for the next two nights? Awesome!”

When DD’s old enough to be moderately rational and capable of a certain amount of self-control, I’ll have no problem teaching her to exercise self-control from time to time–i.e., “yes, you’re tired, but you don’t get to throw a fit.” The general public is welcome to try to explain that (or substitute in “you don’t get to keep Mama up half the night” to be more accurate), and I wish them good luck in explaining it to a six-month-old.

 

[underacloud]

Of course it could have been disastrous–what do you think that four hours in a car with an unhappy baby sounds like?

I have four children and my wife’s parents live about 1.5 hours away, so this sort of scenario is by no means foreign to me.

People who are protective of babies’ and toddlers’ schedules generally know what they are doing.

Actually, I’d suggest that first time parents often don’t know what they are doing (which is why I’m offering my thoughts, so the OP can consider the advice of different people here who have different experiences and perspectives). It’s a challenging and daunting time and some people (perhaps the OP?) err on the side of never doing anything that might upset little baby. IMO babies (mostly) who have more flexible schedules easily get used to it and it is of benefit to the family over time, especially when more children arrive and schedules based entirely around the new baby simply are not possible.

Keeping to a schedule can make the difference between a pleasant day and a hellish day and it’s not nice to pressure young parents with “hey, it will be FUN to keep your baby up in order to see grandma on grandma’s birthday!”. Heck no it won’t.

But who’s having a pleasant day this way?

It seems to me only baby is the winner here, while mum is livid and threatening counselling, granny is manipulative and put out, and dad is caught between his wife and his mom fighting.

But even then, baby only wins in the short term. If these sorts of scenarios cause rifts in the family, then baby also loses out longterm.

I still cannot see why going to mass on Saturday night isn’t the most sensible solution all round. Notwithstanding that the OP needs to learn that if his mom and his wife are fighting over him, he’d better side with his wife if he knows what’s best for him (even if she’s being unreasonable).

 

[underacloud]

Where one family may be over the line, perhaps another family is genuinely taking care of their own needs. And doesn’t each family deserve the privacy and the space to make those decisions?

To me, that’s more what the thread is about. The OP and his wife need the space and privacy that allows them to make the best decisions for their own family, and the OP needs to enforce that space and privacy.

They may also need advice, which is why the OP is here. First time parents will receive lots of advice, some unsolicited, some unhelpful, some plain rude, but some of it will be of benefit. Hopefully if the OP is still reading he will consider some of the different advice and experiences being discussed here. Clearly the adice varies. Some people advocate a schedule, others advocate flexibility. Some people find the mother to be manipulative, others wonder if the wife is being just as manipulative. The OP can work through all that, and then as you say, it is up to him to enforce what is best for his family.

 

[LongingSoul]

I have four children and my wife’s parents live about 1.5 hours away, so this sort of scenario is by no means foreign to me.

Actually, I’d suggest that first time parents often don’t know what they are doing (which is why I’m offering my thoughts, so the OP can consider the advice of different people here who have different experiences and perspectives). It’s a challenging and daunting time and some people (perhaps the OP?) err on the side of never doing anything that might upset little baby. IMO babies (mostly) who have more flexible schedules easily get used to it and it is of benefit to the family over time, especially when more children arrive and schedules based entirely around the new baby simply are not possible.

But who’s having a pleasant day this way?

It seems to me only baby is the winner here, while mum is livid and threatening counselling, granny is manipulative and put out, and dad is caught between his wife and his mom fighting.

But even then, baby only wins in the short term. If these sorts of scenarios cause rifts in the family, then baby also loses out longterm.

I still cannot see why going to mass on Saturday night isn’t the most sensible solution all round. Notwithstanding that the OP needs to learn that if his mom and his wife are fighting over him, he’d better side with his wife if he knows what’s best for him (even if she’s being unreasonable).

I agree with this. And we also all need to grow up when it comes to these situations in the family. I always tell my adult kids when they are taking offense and carrying on… what do you think God thinks of all your drama and wasted indignance over your first world problems? Go and do a bit of googling about the plight of Kurdish mothers and fathers or talk to some of our Sudanese refugee families about their family dramas. Baby’s nap is low on the list of priorities.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I agree with this. And we also all need to grow up when it comes to these situations in the family. I always tell my adult kids when they are taking offense and carrying on… what do you think God thinks of all your drama and wasted indignance over your first world problems? Go and do a bit of googling about the plight of Kurdish mothers and fathers or talk to some of our Sudanese refugee families about their family dramas. Baby’s nap is low on the list of priorities.

So is grandma’s birthday.

 

[Allegra]

I think we need a little more information before it can be decided if this was unreasonable manipulation. Are the OP and his family the only guests? Or does their going down on Saturday mean that the MIL is required to be hostess for two nights in a row? I’m a big proponant of baby schedules. I have a very happy, flexible baby and I attribute it to keeping her on a regular feeding and napping schedule. How much would grandma appreciate a screaming baby on her birthday as opposed to a happy, smiling baby? However, there are any number of conditions that would make the change of day more inconvenient for the MIL then it is worth to keep the baby on his or her perfect schedule. If the only reason the MIL doesn’t want the party on Saturday is that it isn’t her “real” birthday, then I think she is being childish and manipulative.

 

[Xantippe]

So is grandma’s birthday.

You might think.

Honestly, if I were being evacuated for some sort of major emergency, ensuring meal time and sleep routines would be among my top priorities for establishing a sense of normalcy and preserving everybody’s physical well-being.

If baby doesn’t sleep properly, mom and dad won’t sleep properly, and nobody’s going to feel good. This is not a “first world problem,” it’s basic self-care.

If other people’s kids sleep well on the road or with nonexistent schedules, absolutely fantastic, but in that case I would appreciate it if they didn’t guilt other parents into doing things against their better judgment.

 

[LongingSoul]

You might think.

Honestly, if I were being evacuated for some sort of major emergency, ensuring meal time and sleep routines would be among my top priorities for establishing a sense of normalcy and preserving everybody’s physical well-being.

If baby doesn’t sleep properly, mom and dad won’t sleep properly, and nobody’s going to feel good. This is not a “first world problem,” it’s basic self-care.

If other people’s kids sleep well on the road or with nonexistent schedules, absolutely fantastic, but in that case I would appreciate it if they didn’t guilt other parents into doing things against their better judgment.

If I was this couple and adamant not to alter my routine one iota, I would just say it’s too much for the baby, so husband can go and be part of celebration. I would send nice present and a card ‘signed’ by the grandbaby and my apologies and best wishes. No way on Gods green earth would I expect the whole celebration and everybody elses plans to be changed for me. Me, me, me, me, me. The most important person on the planet.

 

[Xantippe]

If I was this couple and adamant not to alter my routine one iota, I would just say it’s too much for the baby, so husband can go and be part of celebration. I would send nice present and a card ‘signed’ by the grandbaby and my apologies and best wishes. No way on Gods green earth would I expect the whole celebration and everybody elses plans to be changed for me. Me, me, me, me, me. The most important person on the planet.

There are other ways to do it.

1. The family can all go on Saturday to wish grandma happy birthday.
2. The family can all stay home and see grandma on a different day.
3. I realize that #3 is just the husband travelling, but that one really squicks me out. If my MIL were two hours away, I’d be very ticked off by my husband leaving me home with the baby while he spent an entire day away celebrating MIL’s birthday. It might be different if the wife were totally on board, but she’s not, and four hours of driving is a lot. It’s hard for me to say what my family would do under those circumstances, as we live 2,000 miles from all the grandparents, but I suspect my husband would just make a phone call as he generally does on his parents’ birthdays. Unless this is a round number (50, 60, 70, etc.), an adult’s birthday really isn’t a big deal.

It isn’t outrageous for a wife a) not to want to spend half a day in a car with a crying baby and b) not to want to lose her husband for half the weekend.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

If I was this couple and adamant not to alter my routine one iota, I would just say it’s too much for the baby, so husband can go and be part of celebration. I would send nice present and a card ‘signed’ by the grandbaby and my apologies and best wishes. No way on Gods green earth would I expect the whole celebration and everybody elses plans to be changed for me. Me, me, me, me, me. The most important person on the planet.

They didn’t try to make her reschedule a party, they just said they’d have to come a different day. This woman is old enough to know that she won’t always get to see her adult children on the same day, or for every special occassion.

I certainly wouldn’t let my mom pull me away from my family on a Saturday just because celebrating with us one day early would be too upsetting.

 

[maryjk]

If I was this couple and adamant not to alter my routine one iota, I would just say it’s too much for the baby, so husband can go and be part of celebration. I would send nice present and a card ‘signed’ by the grandbaby and my apologies and best wishes. No way on Gods green earth would I expect** the whole celebration and everybody elses plans to be changed for me**. Me, me, me, me, me. The most important person on the planet.

Maybe I totally missed where the OP said that it was a party with other people attending and that he had asked for the entire party to be moved to another day.

From what I read, the grandmother wants her birthday celebrated on her birthday and not one day off. Grandma is the one that is saying it is all about me, me, me. Sorry, but by that age, people should grow up an realize that the world doesn’t revolve around them. And that celebrating your birthday one day off, just isn’t a big deal.

And yes, right now, for those in the baby’s world, it pretty much does revolve around the baby. You can’t reason with a baby. You can’t tell it to suck it up. But you can tell grandma that. And I would.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Maybe I totally missed where the OP said that it was a party with other people attending and that he had asked for the entire party to be moved to another day.

From what I read, the grandmother wants her birthday celebrated on her birthday and not one day off. Grandma is the one that is saying it is all about me, me, me. Sorry, but by that age, people should grow up an realize that the world doesn’t revolve around them. And that celebrating your birthday one day off, just isn’t a big deal.

And yes, right now, for those in the baby’s world, it pretty much does revolve around the baby. You can’t reason with a baby. You can’t tell it to suck it up. But you can tell grandma that. And I would.

I too did not see any “party” as part of the post. In fact I thought the opposite. The mother said they were dictating when she could celebrate her birthday not what day a party was on… If there were a party she would not have said it that way. She would have pointed out other people had schedules too and that the party was planned for a certain day. But I think she just wanted her homage from the OP and his family to be on the EXACT day.

 

[EasterJoy]

On the topic of scheduling…can’t you both (Hoosier Daddy and Xantippe) be right? Couldn’t it depend on the child and the family? Some infants and children may react much more strongly to a change in their day, where others may not notice. Likewise, some parents may be more patient, or even just better equipped to deal with an extremely fussy child on the road. For example, my mom was really prone to migraines, so she would probably have to insist on going Saturday. I have a mildly autistic niece, and even as an infant, before she was even diagnosed, she required a very strict schedule or she would be a nightmare for the rest of the day. It would have been very unfair to judge her parents for tiptoeing around her schedule, as she was a child with a lot of special needs, but no one knew that yet.

Where one family may be over the line, perhaps another family is genuinely taking care of their own needs. And doesn’t each family deserve the privacy and the space to make those decisions?

To me, that’s more what the thread is about. The OP and his wife need the space and privacy that allows them to make the best decisions for their own family, and the OP needs to enforce that space and privacy.

Oh, absolutely. I think the possibility that Grandma had one parenting style and the OP and his wife have a different parenting style is the most likely thing in the world. Grandma spent her parenting years sucking it up and taking the kids even when it would make her life harder, so she resents that this isn’t done for her, while her son and his wife think everyone would be happier with a certain amount of flexibility and resent that having a birthday celebration on the exact day is such a big deal. For all we know, the wife’s family, on top of this, doesn’t mind celebrating Thanksgiving on a Friday if that is better for everybody, let alone worrying about getting a birthday celebration on the exact day–or, conversely, her family of origin may have a very manipulative relative who uses family gatherings as an avenue to get her way just to be getting her way.

I don’t know if that’s the case, but that is the way I’d bet, if I had to–that is, that it is a misunderstanding that comes from differing expectations on where the give is when it comes to schedules and scheduling.

 

[Lorelei12]

I still cannot see why going to mass on Saturday night isn’t the most sensible solution all round. Notwithstanding that the OP needs to learn that if his mom and his wife are fighting over him, he’d better side with his wife if he knows what’s best for him (even if she’s being unreasonable).

This is what I was thinking too…it sounded like the baby would do fine in the car as long as he had his nap, which he could do if Mass was on Saturday night. I totally get not wanting to spend hours in the car with a screaming baby.

The problem with that was that Mass was during “dinner time”…I admit complete ignorance, but depending on how old the baby is, is it really difficult to feed the baby before or after Mass, altering the schedule by just a little bit? Around here most of the evening masses on Saturday are at 4pm.

Grandma really should be more gracious and stop with the “sighing”, and I absolutely side with the parents’ right to decide what they do and when they do it- they know their baby and what he can handle, and what they are willing to put up with. I just wonder how strict these schedules need to be…how much is overboard? Twenty minutes off, is that ok?

 

[Xantippe]

This is what I was thinking too…it sounded like the baby would do fine in the car as long as he had his nap, which he could do if Mass was on Saturday night. I totally get not wanting to spend hours in the car with a screaming baby.

The problem with that was that Mass was during “dinner time”…I admit complete ignorance, but depending on how old the baby is, is it really difficult to feed the baby before or after Mass, altering the schedule by just a little bit? Around here most of the evening masses on Saturday are at 4pm.

Grandma really should be more gracious and stop with the “sighing”, and I absolutely side with the parents’ right to decide what they do and when they do it- they know their baby and what he can handle, and what they are willing to put up with. I just wonder how strict these schedules need to be…how much is overboard? Twenty minutes off, is that ok?

A 5 PM Mass is often risky with children. A lot of kids are angels for a morning Mass but something else entirely for 5 PM.

 

[BillP]

I really want to hear you explaining your system to a 9-month-old infant or 15-month-old.

You don’t explain it. You just don’t reward such behavior at any age. Once they figure out that screaming doesn’t get them what they want, they quit. Some kids take longer to figure it out, but they all figure it out eventually. You’ve just got the hang in there.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

A 5 PM Mass is often risky with children. A lot of kids are angels for a morning Mass but something else entirely for 5 PM.

Then you move the schedule. My children generally act the same no matter the time of day. I would think that would be the norm. If one was an angel in the morning and horrible after 5pm there would be something wrong.

My expectations for Mass are age appropriate and extend to all of my children from birth to active participant. But that could be because we go to Mass often. A few times a week. So all 4 of my kids are used to a time when they are expected to behave a certain way. We also do adoration which is a great time to teach the younger ones about proper behavior. Our adoration is at 11 PM

I will say this. The more kids you have the better they behave. I remember my oldest being rather fussy at Church and then each one being better and better, probably because the older kids set an example that even the infant picks up on.