Manliness and liturgy

[SJP]

Interesting post from Fr Ray Blake over at Saint Mary Magdalen

Manliness and liturgy

I was listening to the radio on Saturday there was a New Zealand women, a teacher, who had been working with young offenders. Her thesis was boys and girls are different. Boys tend to need respond better to none verbal communication. Boys tend to hear short commands rather than detail instructions. She also said that men, if you ask them how they feel will think about it for ages, whereas girls make an immediate response. Other people say girls think in narrative, boys in facts.
Earlier in the week I had been talking to couple. He was saying, “She doesn’t stop nagging me!”. She said, “He never speaks!”.

I wondered how this impacted on the liturgy, it was provoked by Fr Dwight reporting the reaction of some high school boys after Mass celebrated ad orientem. I was trying to figure out this statement.

“I think it feels more, well, manly. Do you know what I mean. Is that dumb?”

**John Carmel, Cardinal Heenan apparently said this after attending the first demonstration of the Novus Ordo.

“At home it is not only women and children but also fathers of families and young men who come regularly to mass. If we were to offer them the kind of ceremony we saw yesterday in the Sistine Chapel we would soon be left with a congregation mostly of women and children.”**

I am sure there is a connection, I am not sure what form of liturgy best serves the strong silent men of an average Catholic congregation. There seem to be more men present at EF celebrations I have attended, certainly abroad, a higher proportion of men seem to attend Exposition.

I’ll be interested in your thoughts.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

If you’re speaking about ad orientum per se, then I would agree, but I suspect that is only because I dislike the celebrant facing the people. I think it reinforces a false “gathered 'round the table” feeling, rather than a proper notion of the Holy Sacrifice. So I cannot answer with any integrity, since I just plain dislike it.

If you’re talking about the OF in general, I can see how the “touchy-feely” school of thought has invaded and abused that form, but I don’t believe it’s ontological to the form itself. On the contrary (and I’ve used the word “austere” a lot lately, so forgive me), I should think that the OF, properly offered, would be more “masculine” because it is more austere, with a restraint of gesture and words. The vestment change has been to the better (except for the polyester chasubles!) if we’re talking masculinity. We just seem to have a lot more gay men WEARING those vesments, unfortunately.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Women tend to be more religious then men. All-male priesthood and Altar servers ensures that there will always be a masculine aspect of the Liturgy.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

My thoughts may not be directly related to your question, but personally, when I hear an effeminate EWTN Priest on the radio, I get such a sense of disgust that I have to change the station immediately. Sometimes they have them recite a prayer between shows and I can’t even take it for that short of a time.

Real men are disgusted by feminine men. I think only manly men should be ordained to the Priesthood. What boy is going to aspire to be a Priest if their Priest is feminine?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

My thoughts may not be directly related to your question, but personally, when I hear an effeminate EWTN Priest on the radio, I get such a sense of disgust that I have to change the station immediately. Sometimes they have them recite a prayer between shows and I can’t even take it for that short of a time.

Real men are disgusted by feminine men. I think only manly men should be ordained to the Priesthood. What boy is going to aspire to be a Priest if their Priest is feminine?

I watch EWTN regularly and I’ve yet to see what I would term an effeminate man. Soft spoken, but not effeminate. Not to mention that that is a pretty narrow construct. I’ve known several of what I would regard to be masculine men who turned out to “play for the other team.” Hyper-masculinity is, apparently, a big thing for some of them.

Now if you’re talking Charles Nelson Riley in a chasuble, well, you’ve an obvious point.

 

[EasterJoy]

Real men are disgusted by feminine men. I think only manly men should be ordained to the Priesthood. What boy is going to aspire to be a Priest if their Priest is feminine?

Yes, because heaven knows that letting women into law, science, medicine, law enforcement, and the military have pretty much left the boys with only the NFL and the priesthood to aspire to. What a bunch of garbage.

I am not arguing that the priesthood is not an inherently masculine calling. I am arguing that anyone who thinks that women need to be kept out so that the men will want to keep doing it doesn’t understand what the priesthood requires in the first place. A man that would disdain service of God that is open to women needs to revisit that whole foot-washing scene at the Last Supper. A priest had better not think any work that a woman does as a matter of course is beneath him.

Real men know what sinners they are, and are disgusted by no one else in comparison. These are the guys we want in the priesthood, and as Christian models for our boys. Let the rest of them grow up first.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I watch EWTN regularly and I’ve yet to see what I would term an effeminate man. Soft spoken, but not effeminate. Not to mention that that is a pretty narrow construct. I’ve known several of what I would regard to be masculine men who turned out to “play for the other team.” Hyper-masculinity is, apparently, a big thing for some of them.

Now if you’re talking Charles Nelson Riley in a chasuble, well, you’ve an obvious point.

I was thinking of Little Richard. Wooooooo!

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Yes, because heaven knows that letting women into law, science, medicine, law enforcement, and the military have pretty much left the boys with only the NFL and the priesthood to aspire to. What a bunch of garbage.

I am not arguing that the priesthood is not an inherently masculine calling. I am arguing that anyone who thinks that women need to be kept out so that the men will want to keep doing it doesn’t understand what the priesthood requires in the first place.

I think you missed my point. My point was not that women in the Priesthood would hinder boys from aspireing to it, but that feminine men in the Priesthood would.

 

[Timothysis]

Real men are disgusted by feminine men. I think only manly men should be ordained to the Priesthood. What boy is going to aspire to be a Priest if their Priest is feminine?

What a strange train of logic. We found out with the initial explosion of AIDS that alot more men are bisexual than admit it. You need not be surprised that not all of them were “feminine.”

I’ve seen many good priests in my day. I don’t think there was one that I would ever describe as a “manly man.” Bigotry is not a pretty thing, even when it’s meant in a “good” way.

 

[ethelzguy]

Now if you’re talking Charles Nelson Riley in a chasuble, well, you’ve an obvious point.

Oh my…you ARE showing your age…

Actually, back in the 70’s, a neighboring parish had a pastor who could have passed for his brother.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

but that feminine men in the Priesthood would.

This, I think, cannot be argued with. We’ve had an outrageous number of gay men in the priesthood, the “purple mafia” in some dioceses. As things currently stand, I can point out very few priests who are not ancient to my nephews and godson as examples of why they might wish to consider the priesthood (and they do not relate terribly well to the very old priests). I just hope we don’t get a huge in-surge of golf fanatics. I’d consider a priest manly if he spent more time on his homilies and less time on his handicap.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Real men are disgusted by feminine men.

What constitutes masculinity and feminity are actually social constructs. What seems one in one culture is the opposite in another.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think you missed my point. My point was not that women in the Priesthood would hinder boys from aspireing to it, but that feminine men in the Priesthood would.

In that case, I would argue that these odd affectations that put people off so much are not in fact feminine. As evidence, I would point out that few women find these same affectations “feminine” in other women. These habits are pretty much just as annoying in women as they are in men. I would argue that these are, rather, more or less anti-social habits that are incorrectly thought to have some sort of glamour.

You might as well call the habits of scratching yourself in public and having contests about how long you can burp as “masculine”. These aren’t habits you’d want in a priest, either, even if they wouldn’t turn off 5th grade boys nearly so much!

I’m not talking about having a slight build or a high voice or any of that. People shouldn’t be criticized for personal charateristics that are beyond their control, and that includes priests.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Real men are disgusted by feminine men.

What constitutes masculinity and feminity are actually social constructs. What seems one in one culture is the opposite in another.

I used to believe this, so I’m not trying to bust you out here. Gender behavior obviously differs from culture to culture, but doesn’t God create people male and female?

It doesn’t make sense to me to make the Priesthood exclusively male and yet not support it being “manly.”

Fortunately, The Holy Father has prevented the ordinations of homosexuals for the future.

 

[Spiller]

Oh my…you ARE showing your age…

Actually, back in the 70’s, a neighboring parish had a pastor who could have passed for his brother.

I think we had Paul Lynde’s twin around the same time…

 

[EasterJoy]

As to the original post: the EF tends to be shorter. There is no touching of other people involved. If it ever admitted novelty, it doesn’t now. There are no women at the center of attention. For a variety of reasons, these would be things that more of the guys I know would be more likely to prefer.

That is not to say that I don’t know many guys who find the EF less engaging. That isn’t to say I don’t know women who would say I’ve just described everything they want to see in a liturgy. It is to say the differences I can think of between the EF and the OF are things more likely to attract a man than a woman.

Having said that: most guys I know would like best of all the shortest version of the OF they can find, with the fewest verses necessary of songs that they grew up with, sung just long enough to get whatever is being done while the singing is going on: i.e., as soon as Father gets to the altar and turns to face everyone during the processional, stop the music. As for the sign of peace: it’s fine, except at the ideal Mass, I know everybody, anyway, so let’s get this show on the road. I’m not talking about all guys or most guys. I mean guys I grew up with.

One of the guys I am thinking of is the kind who shows up for everything: Stations of the Cross, rosary, fasting, first Friday Mass, regular confession, you name it. Whatever Father needs done, call this guy, he’ll get right on it. He isn’t lazy. He doesn’t dislike participation or liturgy. He just likes to be efficient. I know quite a few guys like that.

 

[ProVobis]

Interesting post from Fr Ray Blake over at Saint Mary Magdalen

One of the better books I’ve read on the subject is “The Church Impotent, the Feminization of Christianity” by Leon J. Podles. It covers the liturgy briefly (the Latin Mass is more manly, etc.) but focuses a lot on communion as well. Men tend to regard eating the flesh of Christ a little bit differently, according to the author. Most interesting observation. Maybe something we all have suspected from time to time. In any case, a recommended read which we all find controversial, no doubt.

 

[ethelzguy]

I think we had Paul Lynde’s twin around the same time…

Circle gets the square…