Manna In The Desert

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Greetings,

Our pastor (Edited) stated in today’s homily (8/2/09) that the manna in the desert was really insect excrement. No kidding!

I do not believe this is the case. Please give me some advice on how to respond.

Thank you and God bless you.

Rick
 
Ok, well is insect excrement usually edible? Also, where did the insects come from to cover the ground in it? Why weren’t they noted in Scripture? Honestly, the insects themselves probably would have made for better meals than their excrement.
 
I would ask him how the people were able to move around with all the insects (that’s an awful lot of insect poo to feed approximately 2.5 million people), especially when you consider that the average size for insect poo is about the same size as a period at the end of a sentence. I would think this would involve more insects than Pharoh had flies!

In short, I would be very leary of this explanation of the Manna and ask where he got this strange (verging on heretical, maybe?) idea.
 
Did your pastor by any change provide a reference to back up his claim?
 
No, there are no references available. I did send the same questions to the bishop’s office to see if they can help clarify the issue. I will forward any response I get to this forum.

It seems to be an attempt to refute a clear miracle - a miracle conducted by God no less.

Any (name removed by moderator)ut you have is appreciated. Thanks!
 
No, there are no references available. I did send the same questions to the bishop’s office to see if they can help clarify the issue. I will forward any response I get to this forum.

It seems to be an attempt to refute a clear miracle - a miracle conducted by God no less.

Any (name removed by moderator)ut you have is appreciated. Thanks!
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. You’ve done what you can, now pray 🙂
 
This is funny. Fr. Corapi just mentioned the “ant dung” theory on the manna on his show (I think it replays tomorrow). He mentioned that and the miracle of Jesus multiplying the loaves, which was actually the miracle of Jesus getting people to share! :grouphug: “Happy horse manure!” - was his response. 😛
 
First, your most factual rebuttal is right in the responsorial psalm
R. (24b) ** The Lord gave them bread from heaven.**
What we have heard and know,
and what our fathers have declared to us,
We will declare to the generation to come
the glorious deeds of the LORD and his strength
and the wonders that he wrought.
R. The Lord gave them bread from heaven.
He commanded the skies above
and opened the doors of heaven;
he rained manna upon them for food
and gave them heavenly bread.
R. The Lord gave them bread from heaven.
Man ate the bread of angels***,***
food he sent them in abundance.
And he brought them to his holy land,
to the mountains his right hand had won.
R. The Lord gave them bread from heaven.
***Angels ***don’t eat insect poo’…and “…he rained manna…food he sent…”…means that it came from someone…not something…a person not an animal.

These words are the inspired Word of God…specifically the psalms are the prayers inspired (written) by God…for us to pray to Him…(your priest’s) daily Liturgy of The Hours (breviary) is built upon these psalms.

Second, I would recommend that you tell your priest to “…show me the money – his references…” for his statement. In fact I would do it eye-ball-to-eyeball…why? Because we in the “pews” have** a canonical right **to be taught our Catholic faith…which includes the correct interpretation of scriptures during the Liturgy of the Word part of Holy Mass…not some hybrid personalized beliefs! He can foster all his crazy ideas and suppositions (in his own mind)…and he can even discuss them openly outside the official liturgy of the Church…but he cannot and should not be allowed to teach something contrary to the Catholic faith during the Liturgy…raise the B.S. flag with him and if he gaffs it off…go to the Bishop. Most importantly, remember…that your local/particular Church…is the Diocese of Chicago…it exists because there is a successor to the apostles that heads that local/particular…(Cardinal George)…the parish and the pastors/assistant priests are there to simply assist the bishop (Cardinal George) in shepherding HIS flock…you belong to the bishop and his local/particular Church…so what did the shepherd of your soul teach about this weeks gospel? (posted homily on the diocese website?). I bet that it had nothing to do with insect poo!

Lastly…here is the “truth teller” for you pastor…ask him if he would make that same statement about the manna being insect poo…at the local synagogues in your area…maybe tell him that you thought it was such an enlightening insight by him…that you are going to give an interview to the local paper on what your pastor has learned about what the Jews really ate in the desert some 3000 years ago.

Pax Christi
P.S. I looked up your parish website…if I got the right parish on “Elder Lane”…I find it ironic that the first part of the Parish Mission Statement is about being* a gospel-based community*…and the pastor comes up with such “garbage” for his interpretation of the scriptures.
We, the community of Holy Cross Catholic Church, are called through baptism to be a gospel-based community. We gather as a Eucharistic people to celebrate God’s presence among us;
Also, – ( as career Marine, now retired…I have had the pleasure of being part of parishes and attending Catholic liturgy/worship services…all over the Country – from upper Rhode Island all the way to Hawaii and many, many places in between…and even overseas in Eastern and Latin Rite parishes) – it has almost always been my experience that when a Catholic parish mission statement does not begin with a clear…strong…unambiguous first point on the Eucharist – as the source and summit of our faith because it…the Eucharist…is Our Lord Jesus Christ himself… whom we consume at Holy Mass – then, standby for some things that will not be clear Catholic teachings and faithful liturgical worship…usually not heretical…but fuzzy-feel good stuff at best and irreverent and disrespectful at worse.

Just…my non scientific observation from the pews!
 
12 And the manna ceased on the morrow, when they ate of the produce of the land; and the people of Israel had manna no more, but ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.
Joshua 5:12 Constipated insects??
 
Woah !

There is a big difference between stating something exists in the desert which tastes like a mixture of coriander and honey – and Jumping to the conclusion that Manna was “natural”.

There is a substance made by insects, but it is not poo – rather it something these insects can’t eat that they regurgitate (sorry, if you lost your appetite – but J.Baptist ate grasshoppers, and wild honey … which by description may have a similar taste).

The natives of the desert areas occasionally find it even today, and it is a delicacy. There is never enough produced in one place to feed a family, let alone twelve whole clans of fairly large size. Regardless of the source of the manna, it had to be miraculous to sustain people for even 40 days, let alone 40 years.

The phrase in the psalm that reads “bread of angels” alternately means bread of the strong. It is not necessary for Spiritual Angels to eat anything corporeal – and it IS clear that manna was real edible food. So the relationship is not based on the source of the physical substance; but rather the spirit behind the miracle.

Not to be a sting, but many insects also can fly. If anyone wants to a close search of the passages, I don’t think that Deute; Exodus; etc. ever talks about it falling from heaven – but only finding it on the ground after the night is over. The psalms are a reflection on the meaning; and are not necessarily explaining a physical fact of the Sky dropping things… but rather, from Heaven, was the source of the spirit which made the manna happen.

The Angels are seen in scripture as those who bring messages from heaven to earth. Even if God sent his angels to multiply a tiny bit of insect made bread into gigantic proportion – it would be STILL be bread of Angels; for they did the task – and only those with the spirit of God can call into existence what is not.

It is no different than Jesus taking bread made by human hands – and out of NOTHING calling huge amounts of it into existence. It isn’t like he “stretched” the bread – nor is likely that people who have been with him THREE days could keep much bread that long; most of it would spoil or have been eaten already.

Mark 8:1-3 … and had nothing to eat … it is three days now that they have been in attendance and they have nothing to eat. If I send them away now they will grow faint…

They didn’t have plastic bags either…
Also, Jesus had many disciples… but they (total) had only 7 loaves.
Mark 8:19-21.

And then, the disciples speculated on not having bread being a catastrophe, but Mark 8:21 is Jesus’ answer to their thinking…

That too is part of the miracle of the Manna – It either kept or corrupted for one or two days – depending on the day; eg: it lasted twice as long on Fridays in comparison to any other day of the week so that no one gathered on the Sabbath; and no bread was found on the Sabbath by those who violated God’s command NOT TO LOOK FOR IT. Nor could it be hoarded; as any day except Friday resulted in it rotting within 24 hours.

A similar miracle was promised the people, once they entered the promised land.
There are year long Sabbaths; and God promised to have 1 harvest last three years.

Also notice that if people had shared, they wouldn’t have been too keen on the Apostles gathering up ALL the remains for themselves; (7 hampers full) but not a single complaint is heard.

John records the other feeding; that of the 5000. Jesus recalls to them that man was not always to work for bread according to Moses:

John 6:27 You should not work for bread that perishes in the using.

That is, for hoarding, or doing it on the Sabbath which was the teaching purpose of the manna. In this reading, which I heard today again at mass – notice they ask Jesus for the miracle of Moses, the manna as the “sign”;

And on this figurative Sabbath day, Jesus refuses them physical bread.
(His disciples had it though … from the leftovers…)

And in the following argument he says:
John 6:27 “The father has set his seal…”
Where, then, is the bread which is approved ( 😃 better than USDA ) left over for the purpose of the Sabbath? God produced no manna in the desert on the Sabbath, and Jesus does not either (eg:in this teaching.)

Notice: the bread people ate with Jesus, was bread of the field. Yet – even though this kind of bread is “common” and “natural”; that isn’t the point of passage.

Do not think, that just because items of this world were used in a miracle, that it is any less miraculous. St. Peter’s handkerchief did not heal people itself, but that item is the sign by which some were healed. It is no more “mere natural phenomena” in any of these things; the miracles go beyond the power of nature.

As an apologetic, it isn’t really worth fighting over anyway; the point can be made with or without insects; they are irrelevant.
 
You will also find the reference to the sweet excretion from the insects of the Sinai Desert, if you visit the following link:

liturgy.slu.edu/18OrdB080209/theword_indepth.html

This is from the Center for Liturgy at Saint Louis University which came into existence in Fall of 1993. It was founded by Fr. John Foley, S. J.

Their main website address is liturgy.slu.edu/

I find it very useful for Sunday scripture study, explanation and reflection.

Trust this helps
 
You will also find the reference to the sweet excretion from the insects of the Sinai Desert, if you visit the following link:

I find it very useful for Sunday scripture study, explanation and reflection.

Trust this helps
Thanks Regina.
His reference to “Bread from Heaven”, actually, isn’t in Numbers 11.
I am kind of curious why he cites that passage.
11:9 is as close as it gets, and the word used there doesn’t specify where it fell from.

But, I did find a reference that I had missed before.
Exodus 16:4-5;
Which is where God specifies the miraculous nature of the bread, and how long it will last on each day. He says that he will make it rain down from the sky (Heaven) – because of the people longing for the food of Egypt…
The same reason that God rains down quail in Numbers 11.

Are you in a Jesuit run parish, yourself, or is this just something you came across?

Peace.
–Andrew.
 
In Exodus 16:4, The Lord says to Moses, “I will rain bread from heaven on you”. There is no mention of insects.
 
I thought manna was like flour and the Israelites made bread from it.
 
In my homily I made the comment that what was called bread from heaven is produced by insects feeding off tamarisk trees in the desert. I don’t necessarily think of think of all excrement produced by insects as being offensive. After all, honey is produced by bees, yet we hardly think of honey has being offensive.

Fr. Rick Spicer
 
I would like to thank everyone for the valuable (name removed by moderator)ut.

It is common in the homolies I have to sit through for miracles to be reduced to natural occurences. Why - is a good question. The miracle cited at the top of this thread is the latest example. I have also heard the following.
  • the parting of the read sea was a local weather/drought related incident;
  • the feeding of the multitude from a few loaves and fishes was really getting everyone to share what they already had;
  • healing of someone posessed by demons was actually a medical cure of a common illness such as a cold or flu;
  • etc…
I wanted to share this experience with others to see you had similar experiences and what could be done about it, in addition to praying for our pastor and our church.

Please do me a favor, and listen very closely to the homily when you attend mass. When you hear the “discordant note” make a mental note and share the issue with others to check your understanding and then with your pastor in a gentle manner as recommended by the latest encyclical.

Our children and weaker brothers and sisters will be protected by your actions.

Maybe someday, these “weak homolies” and error-filled exhortations will be more rare.

Thank you again for your good advice.

God bless you all!

Rick
 
I would like to thank everyone for the valuable (name removed by moderator)ut.

It is common in the homolies I have to sit through for miracles to be reduced to natural occurences. Why - is a good question. The miracle cited at the top of this thread is the latest example. I have also heard the following.
  • the parting of the read sea was a local weather/drought related incident;
  • the feeding of the multitude from a few loaves and fishes was really getting everyone to share what they already had;
  • healing of someone posessed by demons was actually a medical cure of a common illness such as a cold or flu;
  • etc…
I wanted to share this experience with others to see you had similar experiences and what could be done about it, in addition to praying for our pastor and our church.

Please do me a favor, and listen very closely to the homily when you attend mass. When you hear the “discordant note” make a mental note and share the issue with others to check your understanding and then with your pastor in a gentle manner as recommended by the latest encyclical.

Our children and weaker brothers and sisters will be protected by your actions.

Maybe someday, these “weak homolies” and error-filled exhortations will be more rare.

Thank you again for your good advice.

God bless you all!

Rick
Yes, it’s sad, especially since our prophets, and even Our Lady herself forewarned us that even many of those dedicated to God would lose faith. Of course, they probably don’t believe the prophecies either, which is why they fulfill them. I’m beginning to think that Catholic prophecy, especially a book like “Trial, Tribulation and Triumph”, should be required reading for Catholics - so they make sure the prophecies aren’t about them! May God pour out His graces on His people, especially our shepherds.
 
Where is the Biblical reference for that?
Umm, are you referring to my post? Will this do?

“Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt.” (1 Thessalonians 5:19-20)

Or were you looking for something specific like this?

“Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.” (Revelation 12:3-4)

The stars are symbolic for angels, and the clergy are like angels, neither married nor given in marriage.
 
On the sixth day, when they prepare what they bring in, it will be twice as much as they gather daily."
Expdus 16:5
. 19 And Moses said to them, “Let no man leave any of it till the morning.” 20 But they did not listen to Moses; some left part of it till the morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them
Exodus 16:19-20
22 On the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers apiece; and when all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,23 he said to them, “This is what the LORD has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy sabbath to the LORD; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay by to be kept till the morning.’” 24 So they laid it by till the morning, as Moses bade them; and it did not become foul, and there were no worms in it.
Exodus 16:22-24
On the seventh day some of the people went out to gather, and they found none
Exodus 16:27

So the insects obeyed the law and produced no product on the Sabbath. to copensate they produced twice as much on the day before the Sabbath. But how did they add preservative to that on the day before the Sabbath so that it would keep twice as long. :confused:

Some mighty talented insects there.
 
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