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TheMc
Guest
wdtprs.com/blog/2011/02/quaeritur-after-what-point-of-lateness-can-i-no-longer-receive-communion-fulfill-obligation/
I know, I know, it’s not a church document, but it is an opinion worth reading.
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I know, I know, it’s not a church document, but it is an opinion worth reading.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
This is asinine.
If you don’t do something completely, you haven’t done it. Period. That is an irrefutable fact.
There is an obligation to attend mass. Mass starts at period Y and goes to period X. If you are not there before Y or you do not stay until after X, you have not completed the activity, therefore you have not met the obligation!
Your argument goes along the lines of saying: this is the obligation. Part of the obligation was not met–part of mass was missed. Therefore, I have met the obligation.
Well, no… not quite. That makes no sense, and I hate using that phrase and rarely do so.
D
Dymphna82
Guest
Just to think, when I was Wiccan, it was considered an offense to leave the circle, unless it was an emergency, and in which case, one would have to ask the circle be quickly opened for them to leave. It was considered a disruption of the energies to go about that too often.
Then I go to mass and folk can’t get out fast enough after he Eucharist. I think the one true God deserves better. It’s a good thing he’s all loving.
Then I go to mass and folk can’t get out fast enough after he Eucharist. I think the one true God deserves better. It’s a good thing he’s all loving.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Without reading it (I’m a bit tired by now), I just want to say that I am on the side of staying for the entire Mass. I mean I try to come early for Divine Liturgy, and stay afterwards for some prayers of my own. My point here is if we’re going to be legalistic about telling people to stay for the entire Mass, then we should be prepared to back it up. As it is, we can’t. There is nothing official from the Church about the matter. But if we tackle the truth and the spiritual reality about being there for the entire Liturgy, then we do not need to back it up with a man-made law because the truth that is Christ transcends human reason.
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TheMc
Guest
Here’s the gist of it:
Fr. Z states that there’s really no official ruling on the matter.
He points out several different thoughts on the matter, including:
- Be there by the Gospel
- Be there by the offertory (before the offertory bell at the unveiling of the chalice)
- Be there from the first to last word (which he states is probably not very realistic)
So, if you are late for Mass through no fault of your own, and there is no other way to fulfill your Sunday or Holy Day obligation, you have nevertheless done your best. If you late through your own fault, that is another matter.
That’s the gist of it for you.
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lisahiku
Guest
I think people are forgetting there are PLENTY of people who come LATE for mass…like many come at teh second reading! ( I do NOT condone this!)
I tend to come to mass 20 minutes before it starts. So if I leave after communion , I have already put my hour in.
The people who come late and DISRUPT everyone don’t seem to have a problem with missing the first 20 minutes!
(again, I do not condone coming late)
I tend to come to mass 20 minutes before it starts. So if I leave after communion , I have already put my hour in.
The people who come late and DISRUPT everyone don’t seem to have a problem with missing the first 20 minutes!
(again, I do not condone coming late)
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Julia_Mae
Guest
This bothers me very much in my new parish. In my old Parish, it was the custom to have silence in the nave for 30 minutes before an after Mass. We had social time in the basement or narthex.:angel1::angel1:
I’m interested in what others think on this: Is it not best to remain and pray after receiving the Holy Eucharist instead of rushing out the door?
:harp::nun1::knight1:
I think if there was just silence, people notice there are those who are praying. It kind of sends a silent message and you start to get more pray-ers.
I makes me want to weep. Don’t they know what just happened?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Its not an irrefutable fact. You can’t sue a contractor who didn’t finish his job for not doing his job if he did 80% of it. You can sue him for not finishing, but you cannot sue him for not doing. There is a difference.
My argument goes along the lines of there is nothing the Church has said that leaving early makes you not fulfill your obligation. I’m a firm believer in being there for the entire Liturgy, but we cannot in all honesty make a claim that those who leave early do not fulfill their obligation. We can’t. We don’t have the authority to make such pronouncement, nor do we have any evidence to make that claim factual.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I’d like to present another victim of legalism.
We do not go to Mass to “put our hour in”. God is not a shift manager who looks at our punch cards.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I can, in all honesty. I’m being super honest. I can’t really explain this in any simpler terms. If you don’t finish something in entirety, you didn’t do it.
Sure we do. Rules are not there just to be some superficiality to be acknowledged but ignored. Rules are there for a reason. Even if one doesn’t understand or know the reason, if he still follows the Church’s law on the matter, his soul is safe. That’s what’s important.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I’m not arguing with your point. I’m arguing how you are delivering it.
No. Merely following rules for the sake of rules is empty gesture. Our soul is not safe just because we follow the rules. The same reason that it doesn’t make you a good driver just because you never get a driving ticket.
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Dymphna82
Guest
Last Sunday, I was so wiped out from my medicine and just overall procrastinating ways that I almost fell asleep and didn’t go to mass. I had to beg St. Michael to help me put on the armor of God. A light came through the window and from there I really couldn’t sleep.
But I wont come late, no matter how hard it is for me. I recognize that the reading and the homily are all related and I would hate to miss out on the puzzle pieces.
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ProVobis
Guest
And the ushers usually give them the best aisle seats.
That might not work at the local Polish parish whose parking lot is overfilled to the point that many cars block out the early comers.
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Usige
Guest
Attending Mass isn’t punching a time clock. If I show up 45 minutes before mass and leave 15 minutes in during the Gospel, that is not attending the Mass. We shouldn’t look at what’s the bare minimum one has to do to meet an obligation. I don’t do that in my marriage so why would I do that for the most holy sacrifice?
Here is the main reason I believe that one must attend through the final blessing. At the end of the Mass the priest or deacon will say something like:“The Mass is ended. Go in peace”
So if you are not there when that is said, then you left before the Mass was complete. Otherwise why would it have to be stated?
To those that want to “beat the rush”, might I suggest just staying in the pew and praying until it thins out? I know this can be difficult since so many people think nothing of talking about their social life while walking through the nave.
Sunday is supposed to be set aside for God, so I’ve never understood why people are so pressed for time that an extra 10 - 15 minutes in the pew or parking lot is going to kill them.
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Sarabande
Guest
I haven’t read all the responses, but I think if the priest explains why they are there and why it is better to stay through the end of mass, it could help make a difference in the number of people who leave early.
As a cantor and one who freelances all over my diocese and other dioceses, I’ve noticed a difference in city-dwellers, town-dwellers, suburb-dwellers and country-dwellers.
I currently have three different continuous cantor jobs - Two in the city in one diocese and one in a town in another state and diocese. Then I also have my own parish which is in the suburbs, a parish I attend in a rural dwelling on my family’s vacation property and then my various freelance cantor jobs in the city where I currently work, other churches within that diocese and then different dioceses and states.
Most of the city-dwellers walk to mass. The one parish I usually work at doesn’t even have a parking lot. You have to find parking on the street if you do decide to drive. I’m either cantoring up front or from the choir loft and I have a very good vantage point from both positions. Right before mass, it’s not that filled up, but there is a good number of people. But it really fills up by the time the processional hymn is over. I don’t look out into the congregation when I’m cantoring and no matter how many time I do this, I’m always surprised to see how packed it is by the time the hymn is over and I actually look at the congregation. The regular parishioners don’t usually leave early. They will stay till the end, although you do see people leave once the recessional hymn starts or after the priest passes their pew. There will be a few people who leave right after communion, but it’s not actually many and it’s usually tourists or visitors.
In the town parish where I cantor, it’s almost the same. There is a parking lot, but because it is a very large and active parish and many of the masses are pretty much back to back, you can’t get there early unless you walk to mass or find parking on the street.
In some of the suburban parishes, from the one I grew up in, the one I’m currently in and then others where I freelanced, I’ve seen people act like the NYC commuters on the train ride home from the city. I used to ride the train from Manhatten once a week and would laugh at how ridiculous people acted. They wanted to be the first ones out, then run to their cars in their suits and heels and be out before the rest of the people caused a backup. I admit, it is horrible having to sit just to get out of a parking garage and parking lot, but these people looked so funny. At these churches, it looks almost similar. A herd of people rush to the doors… something you can’t miss because there are so many. They rush out like those NYC commuters and I remember a few times looking out of the window and seeing people literally running or jogging to their cars, pulling their little ones in stride.
In the country parishes I’ve attended, everyone knows everyone and it’s rare that people are late and even more rare that people leave early. I think it may have to do with the fact the church buildings themselves are small and because they do know each other, you can’t just slip out without being seen. Also, if someone does leave early, after mass, you hear people asking each other if maybe there was something wrong because it’s so rare that you see anyone leave before the final hymn is finished.
Anyway, those are my observations. I think for those parishes which do have the mad rush of people leaving after communion, the priest should make mention as to why it is important to stay and maybe, in a humorous tone, talk about how silly the people look when they do rush out and how they look like a herd of cattle or a bunch of high-strung city workers rushing to their cars to get out of the parking lot first. It could get those people thinking and maybe change their ways.
Of course, there are always exceptions. I’ve had emergencies myself where I’ve had to leave early and I do understand those who are in positions due to emergency work, sick relatives, etc.
As a cantor and one who freelances all over my diocese and other dioceses, I’ve noticed a difference in city-dwellers, town-dwellers, suburb-dwellers and country-dwellers.
I currently have three different continuous cantor jobs - Two in the city in one diocese and one in a town in another state and diocese. Then I also have my own parish which is in the suburbs, a parish I attend in a rural dwelling on my family’s vacation property and then my various freelance cantor jobs in the city where I currently work, other churches within that diocese and then different dioceses and states.
Most of the city-dwellers walk to mass. The one parish I usually work at doesn’t even have a parking lot. You have to find parking on the street if you do decide to drive. I’m either cantoring up front or from the choir loft and I have a very good vantage point from both positions. Right before mass, it’s not that filled up, but there is a good number of people. But it really fills up by the time the processional hymn is over. I don’t look out into the congregation when I’m cantoring and no matter how many time I do this, I’m always surprised to see how packed it is by the time the hymn is over and I actually look at the congregation. The regular parishioners don’t usually leave early. They will stay till the end, although you do see people leave once the recessional hymn starts or after the priest passes their pew. There will be a few people who leave right after communion, but it’s not actually many and it’s usually tourists or visitors.
In the town parish where I cantor, it’s almost the same. There is a parking lot, but because it is a very large and active parish and many of the masses are pretty much back to back, you can’t get there early unless you walk to mass or find parking on the street.
In some of the suburban parishes, from the one I grew up in, the one I’m currently in and then others where I freelanced, I’ve seen people act like the NYC commuters on the train ride home from the city. I used to ride the train from Manhatten once a week and would laugh at how ridiculous people acted. They wanted to be the first ones out, then run to their cars in their suits and heels and be out before the rest of the people caused a backup. I admit, it is horrible having to sit just to get out of a parking garage and parking lot, but these people looked so funny. At these churches, it looks almost similar. A herd of people rush to the doors… something you can’t miss because there are so many. They rush out like those NYC commuters and I remember a few times looking out of the window and seeing people literally running or jogging to their cars, pulling their little ones in stride.
In the country parishes I’ve attended, everyone knows everyone and it’s rare that people are late and even more rare that people leave early. I think it may have to do with the fact the church buildings themselves are small and because they do know each other, you can’t just slip out without being seen. Also, if someone does leave early, after mass, you hear people asking each other if maybe there was something wrong because it’s so rare that you see anyone leave before the final hymn is finished.
Anyway, those are my observations. I think for those parishes which do have the mad rush of people leaving after communion, the priest should make mention as to why it is important to stay and maybe, in a humorous tone, talk about how silly the people look when they do rush out and how they look like a herd of cattle or a bunch of high-strung city workers rushing to their cars to get out of the parking lot first. It could get those people thinking and maybe change their ways.
Of course, there are always exceptions. I’ve had emergencies myself where I’ve had to leave early and I do understand those who are in positions due to emergency work, sick relatives, etc.
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paperwight66
Guest
In our parish, one of the priests is always just outside the doors before the end of Mass. I don’t know whether he is there to catch out and shame the early-leavers, but it did occur to me that sometimes people might go out early precisely because then they can have a quiet word with the priest, before he’s surrounded.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
Yes, when I go. Perhaps that is why they call it “holy day of obligation”
I’m confused. According to your profile thing o at the top right of your post (sorry, have no idea if that’s called something) you are “other.” So, you are not Catholic? What church are you going to that has holy days of obligation?
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lisahiku
Guest
Really? hmmm… that is what this whole thread has been about.
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lisahiku
Guest
I am catholic, but I put “OTHER” because I constantly get put down with my questions from a large bunch of folks here on this forum. So, to try to stave them off a bit, I put other. Besides, the “other” could very well be a reality in 2012.
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Padraig1972
Guest
I wish people could use as much energy of explaining to others the importance of going to mass and fullfill it, rather than come up with excuses why it is OK to treat the mass and our church like an hourshift.
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