Man's Knowledge of Mortal Sin?

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Can a person know if they are in mortal sin? I have seen DavidFilmer (CAF member) make the claim repeatedly that a person can not know if they are in mortal sin, and that only God knows for sure. I find this hard to believe, so I wanted to open a new thread on it.

David, I am not trying to single you out, so please don’t take this personally. I just want you to provide Church teachings that support your claim and allow others that disagree to provide teachings that support theirs.

Mortal sin requires grave matter, deliberate consent, and full knowledge. God and His Church have given us some grave matter to discern (10 Commandments), and we know if we do something willfully or if we are forced to do it against our will. Most things we do these days are by our own will. These first two are well within our means. The third criteria seems pointless to make if David is correct, that we have no way of knowing something in its fullness. Why would the Church make this a criteria if there was no way to know for sure? It seems obvious that we can know if we are in a state of mortal sin.

For example, if I know that missing Mass on Sunday (or Saturday evening) is a violation of the 3rd Commandment, and I miss it because I wanted to go play golf with my buddies, then I would know that I was in mortal sin. Now, I agree that most people do not know this and likely do not fall into mortal sin when they fail to attend Sunday Mass, but this does not mean that they can never know later. I think “full knowledge” means more than just hearing someone say it or write in. I think it would mean that you have accepted it as truth.

I also feel that today’s modernists, including priests, don’t like to point out sin in homilies precisely because they are milking this “ignorance” ticket as much as possible. Is it wrong to think there will be many sadly mistaken souls in hell that fail to admonish the sinner when knowing they should. Would this not make them culpable in the sin of others?

Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

God bless.
 
Dear shocktrooper (Boy, what a moniker!),

You might want to review the Catechism of the Catholic Church, starting about paragraph #1855 for a complete description of the Church’s meaning of mortal sin. A copy is available online if you google it.

My short answer is this: if you do not KNOW it is a mortal sin, it is not one. You commit a mortal sin only when you know, and transgress willingly…you cannot be forced to commit a mortal sin.

Good reading!
 
JamestheOlder said:
Dear shocktrooper (Boy, what a moniker!),
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I got it from “Soul of the Apostolate”. It is what I strive to be; I am not one yet. Maybe if I stayed off these forums, I would get there quicker. 🙂

Thank you for your recommendations.
 
Is it a mortal sin if one believes that a certain act is grave matter, but in trying not to engage in it … fails, with absolutely no intention of hurting or offending God?

Does this constitute a lack of culpability?
 
My opinion, based on my understanding of Church teaching and guidance:

In a reasonable sense, yes, we can know if we are in a state of mortal sin. In an absolute sense, it is likely we do not know for all sins. With due diligence of the faithful, utilizing the vast resources of Mother Church, we are expected to possess (or aspire to possess) a well-formed conscience which is capable of reasonably discerning the mortality of our sins, so that we are equipped to respond in contrition.

Does that mean we will always be correct in that discernment? IMO, no. Given the limitation of the human mind, having an absolute, objective certainty of the mortality of all sins we commit is not expected, nor likely. Scrupulosity is born out of this reasonable vs. absolute divide. And certainly the Church confirms the existence of scrupulosity, inferring that there is a way to know reasonably, but not necessarily absolutely. So, in a sense, David is correct…but perhaps even he would not argue that we can have a reasonable knowledge.

Peace.
 
shocktrooper said:
I got it from “Soul of the Apostolate”. It is what I strive to be; I am not one yet. Maybe if I stayed off these forums, I would get there quicker. 🙂

.
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Great source! The work you do on these forums is very useful, and you may have an effect that goes further than personal contact. So don’t quit.
 
Jaguar said:
Is it a mortal sin if one believes that a certain act is grave matter, but in trying not to engage in it … fails, with absolutely no intention of hurting or offending God?

Does this constitute a lack of culpability?
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No, it is a sign the sin is habitual, and still needs to be confessed as a mortal sin. There is practically no believing Christian who commits a sin to hurt or offend G-d. We sin because we are selfish, or because we wish to harm someone. We normally don’t sin “by mistake”, because that would remove one reason it would be a “mortal” sin, and may make it simply venial.

I don’t know if this is a valid idea, but consider:
Mistakes are unconscious acts; mortal sins are conscious acts.
 
SteveGC said:
My opinion, based on my understanding of Church teaching and guidance:

In a reasonable sense, yes, we can know if we are in a state of mortal sin. In an absolute sense, it is likely we do not know for all sins. With due diligence of the faithful, utilizing the vast resources of Mother Church, we are expected to possess (or aspire to possess) a well-formed conscience which is capable of reasonably discerning the mortality of our sins, so that we are equipped to respond in contrition.

Does that mean we will always be correct in that discernment? IMO, no. Given the limitation of the human mind, having an absolute, objective certainty of the mortality of all sins we commit is not expected, nor likely. Scrupulosity is born out of this reasonable vs. absolute divide. And certainly the Church confirms the existence of scrupulosity, inferring that there is a way to know reasonably, but not necessarily absolutely. So, in a sense, David is correct…but perhaps even he would not argue that we can have a reasonable knowledge.

Peace.
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Please elaborate on your reasoning, in view of the definition of a mortal sin. There really does not seem to be a reasonablitity/absolute test. It either is a serious matter or not, it is either done consciously, or not. It is either done willingly, or not.

It does not seem to require “certainity”, and, even if it did, the solution would be to confess it and let the priest be the judge. I’m afraid this is where the “certainty” argument rests…the need to confess it in the Sacrament of Penance. Are we embarrassed to do so, and therefore stretchhhhhhhhhhhhh our consciences to the point where we can make ourselves believe it is NOT a mortal sin…and we don’t have to tell it to the priest?

Please clarify.
 
JamestheOlder said:
Please elaborate on your reasoning, in view of the definition of a mortal sin. There really does not seem to be a reasonablitity/absolute test. It either is a serious matter or not, it is either done consciously, or not. It is either done willingly, or not.
Please clarify.
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It’s not black & white or absolute, though. Individual culpability can be a factor, but not used as an excuse.

I agree with your answer to my “Q” regarding, sinning mortally without any purposeful attempt to hurt God, or separate us from Him. However, as you mentioned, it is a sign of a habit, and therefore, it can reduce the severity of the sin.

Anyway, this must be discussed with a worthy confessor, and a game plan to defeat the habit must be developed.

Do you agree?
 
Jaguar said:
It’s not black & white or absolute, though. Individual culpability can be a factor, but not used as an excuse.

I agree with your answer to my “Q” regarding, sinning mortally without any purposeful attempt to hurt God, or separate us from Him. However, as you mentioned, it is a sign of a habit, and therefore, it can reduce the severity of the sin.

Anyway, this must be discussed with a worthy confessor, and a game plan to defeat the habit must be developed.

Do you agree?
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Jaguar,

Can the person that is sinning know if they are in mortal sin based on the criteria the Church has given us? If there is ANY case in which they can know, then the answer is yes. Do you agree or disagree? And if not, then why would the Church give us the criteria?

Thanks.
 
shocktrooper said:
Jaguar,

Can the person that is sinning know if they are in mortal sin based on the criteria the Church has given us? If there is ANY case in which they can know, then the answer is yes. Do you agree or disagree? And if not, then why would the Church give us the criteria?

Thanks.
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Yes, if I commit a grave sin and I do so knowing it is a grave sin and with full consent then I can be sure I am in mortal sin.
 
StOwen said:
Yes, if I commit a grave sin and I do so knowing it is a grave sin and with full consent then I can be sure I am in mortal sin.
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Thank you for answering. At least now I know I am not alone on this.

God bless.
 
Jaguar said:
It’s not black & white or absolute, though. Individual culpability can be a factor, but not used as an excuse.

I agree with your answer to my “Q” regarding, sinning mortally without any purposeful attempt to hurt God, or separate us from Him. However, as you mentioned, it is a sign of a habit, and therefore, it can reduce the severity of the sin.

Anyway, this must be discussed with a worthy confessor, and a game plan to defeat the habit must be developed.

Do you agree?
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Not with your first two points, I’m afraid. But I do agree with your third…a good confessor is mandatory towards understanding why one wishes to sin, and how to combat that desire.

For your first point: please define “black and white” and “absolute”, as you use the terms. I see no distinction between those terms and what I previously described as mortal sin.

For your second point…no, being habitual does not lessen the severity of the sin. It is still a mortal sin, which by definition means “death” to the soul. If anything, a habitual sin is more serious, since it requires a concentrated effort to stop that sort of sin. But less serous, no.

Peace be with you.
 
JamestheOlder said:
Please elaborate on your reasoning, in view of the definition of a mortal sin. There really does not seem to be a reasonablitity/absolute test. It either is a serious matter or not, it is either done consciously, or not. It is either done willingly, or not.

It does not seem to require “certainity”, and, even if it did, the solution would be to confess it and let the priest be the judge. I’m afraid this is where the “certainty” argument rests…the need to confess it in the Sacrament of Penance. Are we embarrassed to do so, and therefore stretchhhhhhhhhhhhh our consciences to the point where we can make ourselves believe it is NOT a mortal sin…and we don’t have to tell it to the priest?

Please clarify.
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No, I’m not claiming there must be certainty before confessing it. I agree that regardless of the level of knowledge of mortal sin (from reasonable certainty on up to absolute certainty), confession is a must. The question of the thread is whether or not we actually can know we are in mortal sin, and my response was to essentially say “yes, of course we can know”…but I wanted to offer that there are levels of knowledge within the subjective view, and to express that there is room for debate on how well we can actually KNOW for sure we have sinned mortally…and that this may have been why the poster mentioned in the OP allegedly said that we “cannot know”.

In other words, something can be true, but we can have varying degrees of knowledge of it’s truth…from none at all, all the way up to absolute certainty. My position is that the Church provides guidance for us to be able to possess a reasonable certainty (which is to say, a certainty based on the best efforts of our well-formed conscience) of the mortal sins we commit. But can we have an ABSOLUTE certainty, meaning, God agrees with every assessment we make of our sins’ mortality? I would think “no”, based merely on the limitations of our human reason. We do not know the mind of God, hence it seems we would not have absolute certainty on some things. Perhaps I should’ve clarified that I’m using the word “absolute” here to mean something akin to objective truth.

Peace.
 
SteveGC said:
No, I’m not claiming there must be certainty before confessing it. I agree that regardless of the level of knowledge of mortal sin (from reasonable certainty on up to absolute certainty), confession is a must. The question of the thread is whether or not we actually can know we are in mortal sin, and my response was to essentially say “yes, of course we can know”…but I wanted to offer that there are levels of knowledge within the subjective view, and to express that there is room for debate on how well we can actually KNOW for sure we have sinned mortally…and that this may have been why the poster mentioned in the OP allegedly said that we “cannot know”.

In other words, something can be true, but we can have varying degrees of knowledge of it’s truth…from none at all, all the way up to absolute certainty. My position is that the Church provides guidance for us to be able to possess a reasonable certainty (which is to say, a certainty based on the best efforts of our well-formed conscience) of the mortal sins we commit. But can we have an ABSOLUTE certainty, meaning, God agrees with every assessment we make of our sins’ mortality? I would think “no”, based merely on the limitations of our human reason. We do not know the mind of God, hence it seems we would not have absolute certainty on some things. Perhaps I should’ve clarified that I’m using the word “absolute” here to mean something akin to objective truth.

Peace.
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SteveGC,

I see the point you are trying to make. Thanks for the clarification. However, just because our knowledge may be limited, that does not always make it incorrect.

God bless.
 
shocktrooper said:
SteveGC,

I see the point you are trying to make. Thanks for the clarification. However, just because our knowledge may be limited, that does not always make it incorrect.

God bless.
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I fully agree. I don’t think I was trying to assert otherwise.

Peace.
 
Dear SteveGC,

Thanks for your clarification. I think I see your point.

I may differ with you, amicably, I hope, on the “certainty” about mortal sin. It seems to me to be a simple matter of human knowledge, as opposed to G-d’s knowledge or recognition of the sin. I hope I might give you this example to think about:

“Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord in vain”.

This commandment can mean many things to many people; maybe only G-d understands the different interpretations we may make.

But if I say, “G-d damn this person” for almost any reason, even in anger (sort of by accident), I realize I have done wrong…immediately. Is it a serious matter? Yes. Was it wilfully done? Yes. Did I do it KNOWING it was wrong? I’m afraid the answer is “Yes”.
Did I commit a mortal sin? Yes. Why? Because all the elements of the sin were under my control.

Does G-d think my transgression is a mortal sin? I don’t know. I can never pretend to KNOW the MIND OF G-D. He might be merciful, and give me a break…it had been a hard day. He might be just, and say, “I told you so in the Ten Commandments, and here you go violating one”.

But I KNOW I committed a mortal sin…even with my imperfect knowledge of G-d’s definition of what He saw occur.

Do you see my point? We sin because of our own fault; G-d just set the rules.

Peace.
 
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