Mantra Meditation or Jesus Prayer

[Ahimsa]

It is not always a name of a God. There are various forms of it, even in Buddhism.

I’m using “God” to refer to that which is Transcendent, which exists in Buddhism as well as Hinduism.

But you have a misunderstanding why its condemned in Christianity. It is NOT because of the fact that it is associated with Hinduism or non-Christian religion. The condemnation is simply because of the error behind such practices.

Just take the example of someone repeating phrases that worship the Buddha in his mantra meditation. This is a big error because here you have the person giving Buddha, a mere human being, the treatment that a God should receive. Hence it is an error.

Thank you for agreeing with me. I said that the word mantra is disapproved by many Christians because of the word’s association with Buddhism, etc.; and you said that the word is disapproved because of its association with Buddha, Buddhist ideas, etc. We agree.

 

[passer_by]

I’m using “God” to refer to that which is Transcendent, which exists in Buddhism as well as Hinduism.

The transcendence depends on which form of Hinduism or Buddhism you subscribe to. The Gods of these religions are further Pantheistic.

That too is problematic.

Thank you for agreeing with me. I said that the word mantra is disapproved by many Christians because of the word’s association with Buddhism, etc.; and you said that the word is disapproved because of its association with Buddha, Buddhist ideas, etc. We agree.

Well in its core, it is a vain repetition as practiced in Buddhism and Hinduism. So yes, I am glad we can agree on that.

 

[followingtheway]

Actually a lot of Catholics pray “the Jesus Prayer” Mostly Eastern Catholics but sometimes Western Latin Rite Roman Catholics (like me )

Okay they say there are no stupid questions so. What is the Jesus prayer???

It is an Eastern Christian prayer that goes:

“Lord Jesus Christ son of God have mercy on me a sinner”

 

[DL82]

Basically, a mantra is about an inward form of meditation. The goal of reciting a mantra in Hindu or Buddhist spirituality is to bring about a change in oneself, to undergo psychological change or have a spiritual ‘experience’.

The goal of Christian prayer, and this includes the Jesus prayer, is to put oneself in right relationship to God by glorifying God and regularly communications with Him. It is outward facing, not inward facing. Spiritual ecstasies are not the goal of the Christian contemplative, and the saints of East and West alike caution against seeking such ‘experience’ - see St John if the Cross in the West or St John Climacus in the East.

So, practically, repetition may be the same form in mantras and the Jesus prayer, but the Jesus prayer is not a mantra, because it has a different purpose. By analogy, cutting fabric may be the form of both preparing to make a quilt or destroying someone’s best suit, they have the same form but totally different purposes. Of course, a child may in fact be doing both, and a spiritually immature person can do a lot of damage if they begin certain contemplative practices unguided.

 

[Ahimsa]

Wow, I am offended. I honestly am offended. You are saying that Sri Lankan Buddhism has no pantheistic ideas in it.

You my friend, either have no clue what Pantheism and Therevada Buddhism is or you are using some other language.

Like I said, another topic, another thread.

 

[Cecilianus]

Unfortunately traditionalist Catholics and most Orthodox are notorious for their pathetic shallowness of understanding of Oriental religions, the names of which serve as the object of many polemics but have little relationship to the sociological phenemena actually in question. Also unfortunately, most yogis and New-Agers have a very shallow understanding of Christianity, which they try to fit into their Oriental box.

The Jesus Prayer is not a mantra. The purpose of a mantra is psychological or psychic; the actual words themselves don’t matter (which is why the names of Hindu gods can be replaced with Christian terms, as per the shift from Transcendental Meditation to Centering Prayer), but rather their psychic effect on someone as they move someone toward a transcendent state of consciousness where Ultimate Reality can be perceived. There is nothing really wrong with this, except insofar as you are trying to “seize the kingdom of Heaven by force”; if you don’t have the Incarnation of Christ, then the next best place you are going to find God is going to be in His image in the human soul, and in the perception of the act of creation behind the individual human soul. St. Thomas Aquinas called God “ipsum esse”, and Hindus in their meditation seek to see the transpersonal Act of Being underlying individual beings, and they do so by deep interior delving. Not a bad thing, just that we can do much better.

By contrast, the Jesus Prayer is exactly what people here have said it was. It must be said with compunction, and with every word meant from one’s heart. We don’t just repeat the words quickly in order to put us into a meditative state of mind while we meditate on something else (which is the way the Rosary is prayed); rather we focus on the words themselves, if possible without any mental images distracting us from the actual words. (Oriental techniques also seek to remove all mental images, but the purpose there is to empty the mind completely, not just to empty it of everything but the word being spoken.)

Regarding the claims made about Hinduism being polytheistic (it isn’t) or pantheistic (it isn’t) or about their gods being “satanic”, I abjure you in the name of Truth to study the Upanisads and the Vedanta for ten years or so before repeating lies.

The purpose of Oriental spiritual practice is to make the ego or self transparent so that only the uncreated Light of God shines through; our purpose is to make our created egos divinized by that Light. God loved maya so much that He became it so that He could reveal Himself through it and assume it up into Himself - a true scandal indeed.

 

[Cecilianus]

Well in its core, it is a vain repetition as practiced in Buddhism and Hinduism. So yes, I am glad we can agree on that.

It is not a “vain repetition” in Buddhism or Hinduism. It is not a magical trick (to force [g]od to do your will by repeating yourself enough, in order to submit divine will to yours) or pharisaical ostentation.

 

[hazcompat]

The Rule of St. Pachomius

Note: The translation used is primarily that of Fr. Lawrence of Jordanville. This order was given to St. Pachomius of Egypt by an Angel, and was the rule he used at each hour of the day and night (Archimandrite Lazarus (Moore), St. Seraphim of Sarov: A Spiritual Biography, p. 77). It is a prayer rule that especially lends itself to memorization, and as such is one that can be done in situations in which it is impractical for one to pray using a prayer book.

Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us.

Amen. Glory to Thee, our God, glory to Thee.

O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things, Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come and dwell in us, and cleanse us of all impurity, and save our souls, O Good One.

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us. (Thrice)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the unto the ages of ages. Amen.

O Most Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. O Lord, blot out our sins. O Master, pardon our iniquities. O Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities for Thy name’s sake.

Lord have mercy. (Thrice)

Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Our Father, Who art in the Heavens, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

O Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us. Amen.

Lord, Have mercy. (Twelve times)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the unto the ages of ages. Amen.

O come, let us worship God our King.

O come, let us worship and fall down before Christ our King and God.

O come, let us worship and fall down before Christ Himself, our King and God.

Psalm 50

Have mercy on me, O God, according to Thy great mercy; and according to the multitude of Thy compassions blot out my transgression. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I know mine iniquity, and my sin is ever before me. Against Thee only have I sinned and done this evil before Thee, that Thou mightest be justified in Thy words, and prevail when Thou art judged. For behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother bear me. For behold, Thou hast loved truth; the hidden and secret things of Thy wisdom hast Thou made manifest unto me. Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be made clean; Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow. Thou shalt make me to hear joy and gladness; the bones that be humbled, they shall rejoice. Turn Thy face away from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from Thy presence, and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation, and with Thy governing Spirit establish me. I shall teach transgressors Thy ways, and the ungodly shall turn back unto Thee. Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, Thou God of my salvation; my tongue shall rejoice in Thy righteousness. O Lord, Thou shalt open my lips, and my mouth shall declare Thy praise. For if Thou hadst desired sacrifice, I had given it; with whole-burnt offerings Thou shalt not be pleased. A sacrifice unto God is a broken spirit; a heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise. Do good, O Lord, in Thy good pleasure unto Zion, and let the walls of Jerusalem be builded. Then shalt Thou be pleased with a sacrifice of righteousness, with oblation and whole-burnt offerings. Then shall they offer bullocks upon Thine altar.
The Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from the heavens, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man; And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And arose again on the third day according to the Scriptures; And ascended into the heavens, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; And shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life; Who proceedeth from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the prophets. In One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, And the life of the age to come. Amen.

The Jesus Prayer:

      O Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.  (100 Times)

The Dismissal

It is truly meet to bless thee, the Theotokos, ever blessed and most blameless, and Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, who without corruption gavest birth to God the Word, the very Theotokos, thee do we magnify.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Lord, have mercy. (Thrice)

O Lord, Bless.

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, for the sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and God-bearing fathers, and all the saints, have mercy on us and save us, for Thou art good and the Lover of mankind. Amen.

peace

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Regarding the claims made about Hinduism being polytheistic (it isn’t) or pantheistic (it isn’t) or about their gods being “satanic”, I abjure you in the name of Truth to study the Upanisads and the Vedanta for ten years or so before repeating lies.

To be honest, it is all rather confusing (especially for those of us far removed from the culture in which Hinduism came forth from). The problem is that even if your claim is true concerning polytheism and pantheism is correct, the phrasing of the Upanisads and the Vedanta can easily lend material used in support of interpreting Hinduism in such a manner (it being polytheistic and/or pantheistic). Furthermore, the common practice of the religion is such that depending on which school you ask you could get either mode of belief as an answer, or something completely different.
We, as by-products of a Western culture (assuming, of course, you’re of the West, which I could be wrong about) and Christian religion, do not necessarily have terms by which to describe what the Upanisads and the Vedanta are trying to say. Thus, the confusion.

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled programming

 

[Cecilianus]

To be honest, it is all rather confusing (especially for those of us far removed from the culture in which Hinduism came forth from). The problem is that even if your claim is true concerning polytheism and pantheism is correct, the phrasing of the Upanisads and the Vedanta can easily lend material used in support of interpreting Hinduism in such a manner (it being polytheistic and/or pantheistic). Furthermore, the common practice of the religion is such that depending on which school you ask you could get either mode of belief as an answer, or something completely different.
We, as by-products of a Western culture (assuming, of course, you’re of the West, which I could be wrong about) and Christian religion, do not necessarily have terms by which to describe what the Upanisads and the Vedanta are trying to say. Thus, the confusion.

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled programming

Yes, it’s annoying. The confusion is aggravated by misleading translations of the Upanisads; the translations of the Vedanta isn’t quite as misleading because nobody ever actually reads it (I’m familiar with the Vedanta through Samkara - his tome is of the length of, and as rigorously and logically organized as, St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa). I agree with your post 100%.

I am “of the West” with regard to Hinduism, my knowledge of which only comes through study. (I say “with regard to Hinduism” because I am an Eastern Catholic, not a Roman Catholic, my faith heritage coming from Slovakia and Ukraine.)

I do get strongly irritated, however, when people take a suspicious or hostile attitude toward everything outside the Church, toward the “spoliae Aegyptorum” that we should be appropriating as we did with Greek philosophy. It is fine if you do not understand Hinduism or Oriental meditation techniques. You don’t need them - our faith is sufficient for us. But the proper attitude is not to get paranoid and treat them as satanic, or to go around preaching to your parishioners a very simplistic and frankly false portrait of them mostly couched in Western terms (as you see in many Orthodox and traditionalist Catholic writings about Oriental religions), but rather to avoid them out of prudent agnosticism. I don’t practice yoga not because I think I’ll become demonically possessed if I do so (though I’ve heard that one plenty of times!) but simply because I don’t know what EXACTLY yoga really is or does (what is “prana” or “shakti”, anyway?) and I don’t want to do something blind of its nature and consequences. It’s prudence, rather than paranoia, and admission of ignorance rather than close-mindedness or fundamentalism.

I believe that Christianity is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and therefore universal (catholic) in its scope. It must therefore encompass and purify all intellectual systems which seek truth and holiness and God, whether they be Greek philosophy or the Vedanta. But let’s be careful and not rush to confuse a mantra with a prayer and vice versa, and let’s be careful not to dismiss one of them as “satanic” without even understanding what it is.

 

[Vico]

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon:
1
mantra
m. (rarely n. ; ifc. f. %{A}) , `" instrument of thought "’ , speech , sacred text or speech , a prayer or song of praise RV. AV. TS. ;

a Vedic hymn or sacrificial formula , that portion of the Veda which contains the texts called %{Rc} or %{yajus} or %{sAman} (q.v.) as opp. to the Bra1hmana and Upanishad portion (see IW. 5 &c.) Br. Gr2S3rS. &c. [786,1] ;

a sacred formula addressed to any individual deity (e.g. %{om} %{zivAya} %{namaH}) RTL. 61 ;

a mystical verse or magical formula (sometimes personified) , incantation , charm , spell (esp. in modern times employed by the S3a1ktas to acquire superhuman powers ;

the primary Mantras being held to be 70 millions in number and the secondary innumerable RTL. 197-202) RV. (i , 147 , 4) A1s3vS3r. Mn. Katha1s. Sus3r. ;

cousultation , resolution , counsel , advice , plan , design , secret RV. &c. &c. ;

N. of Vishn2u Vishn2. ;

of S3iva MBh. ;

(in astrol.) the fifth mansion VarYogay

man = thought + tra = device

In yoga (union) mantra is for increasing concentration for interiorization (shutting out the outside influences). Any mental or physical process that is repetitive can be used for this focus to achieve interiorization, it does not have to be a sound or thought of a sound representing a diety or to gain worldly powers, cast spells, etc. When interiorization is increased, prayer is more concentrated. So broadly speaking the Jesus Prayer is a devotional mantra used to express our desire to put on Christ through His healing presence, and keeping Him near in our thoughts.

Luke 10:27
He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[DCTom]

The Jesus Prayer is not a mantra. For more information on how they differ, you may wish to read this.

There are a lot of straw man fallacies in that article, but it is otherwise very helpful in explaining how the Jesus Prayer is a prayer and not just a mantra. Thanks for posting.