Many Adams and Eves?

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Scientific evidence supports the conclusion that all humans did not descend from just one pair of humans, but a small group of humans with the population at lowest being 1000. Offiial Church teaching contradicts this, and says that the faithful must accept that we are descended from a literal Adam and Eve. Is this a contradiction between faith and reason?
 
Scientific evidence supports the conclusion that all humans did not descend from just one pair of humans, but a small group of humans with the population at lowest being 1000. Offiial Church teaching contradicts this, and says that the faithful must accept that we are descended from a literal Adam and Eve. Is this a contradiction between faith and reason?
God created humans. The human soul is from God. That is essential.
 
Scientific evidence supports the conclusion that all humans did not descend from just one pair of humans, but a small group of humans with the population at lowest being 1000. Offiial Church teaching contradicts this, and says that the faithful must accept that we are descended from a literal Adam and Eve. Is this a contradiction between faith and reason?
Science isn’t the end of reason faith is.

Science is an art. It’s only as good as it’s current state. Science exists in a state of becoming like all earthly things. Our faith is in eternal changeless realities. Faith isn’t subject to science but when science reaches a level of certainty theologians are obligated to seek the deeper understandings that are implied.
 
Fair enough. You think science may be wrong on this one.

Supposing, just theoretically, that science is correct, what have we to say?
 
I definitely disagree with all these replies saying to trust faith over science like science is such an enemy. In fact the more we learn the more science is supplementing our teachings and beliefs. Science does and always will point the way to the existence of God. Science will never contradict our beliefs because God is reality and science is a study that tries desperately to grasp reality.

Can you site where you received this information please?

You need to understand that one of the most hotly debated issues in paleoanthropology (the study of human origins) focuses on the origins of modern humans. Careful what you believe.

The story of Adam and Eve is a true story, whether every literal sense of it is taken or not.

You should definitely read catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp
 
The only thing we could say. We were wrong.
Ah. So you’re saying that there is a contradiction, in this particular instance, between faith and science. So one is right and one is wrong. Maybe some other theologians will think otherwise.
 
I definitely disagree with all these replies saying to trust faith over science like science is such an enemy. In fact the more we learn the more science is supplementing our teachings and beliefs. Science does and always will point the way to the existence of God. Science will never contradict our beliefs because God is reality and science is a study that tries desperately to grasp reality.

Can you site where you received this information please?

You need to understand that one of the most hotly debated issues in paleoanthropology (the study of human origins) focuses on the origins of modern humans. Careful what you believe.

The story of Adam and Eve is a true story, whether every literal sense of it is taken or not.

You should definitely read catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp
I have read that. My specific question concerns Adam and Eve being real people. Modern scientists seems to say that all humans descend from more than one couple. At face value, Pius XII says this is incorrect.
 
I definitely disagree with all these replies saying to trust faith over science like science is such an enemy. In fact the more we learn the more science is supplementing our teachings and beliefs. Science does and always will point the way to the existence of God. Science will never contradict our beliefs because God is reality and science is a study that tries desperately to grasp reality.

Can you site where you received this information please?

You need to understand that one of the most hotly debated issues in paleoanthropology (the study of human origins) focuses on the origins of modern humans. Careful what you believe.

The story of Adam and Eve is a true story, whether every literal sense of it is taken or not.

You should definitely read catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp
You might not mean that we are not obligated as Catholics to believe that we all decend from a single set of parents. But just in case , did you catch this part?

Excerpt:
Pope Pius XII stated: "When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.
 
Ah. So you’re saying that there is a contradiction, in this particular instance, between faith and science. So one is right and one is wrong. Maybe some other theologians will think otherwise.
I don’t believe the hypothetical is possible. Science doesn’t either. Science is always open to correction.
 
Modern scientists seems to say that all humans descend from more than one couple.
Quite apart from the question of what we would do if someone “proved” an essential truth of the faith to be wrong (and I’m not convinced that existence of an identifiable individual Adam and Eve is an essential truth) - I wonder why you make this assertion when, if I recall a recent* bit of excitement in the science press, the most recent mitochondrial DNA evidence points to a single “Eve” in the homo sapiens line and the multiple-origins theory of human evolution has become much less accepted among scientistists than it once was?

disclaimer - I’m not a scientist, just an interested reader.

*okay, not so recent.😃 Mid-1990s. . . archaeology.org/9609/abstracts/dna.html
 
Even if overwhelming evidence were found that supported the theory that a single couple generated the entire human race, it wouldn’t be evidence that faith could cling to because scientists tend to find additional evidence that produces alternative theories. Science develops theories about how things work. Science doesn’t claim to know, it develops theories based on the current evidence.
 
So if I am understanding correctly, in said case all major and accepted scientific theories concerning the descent of the current human population are wrong, and to think otherwise is to contradict the Church?
 
So if I am understanding correctly, in said case all major and accepted scientific theories concerning the descent of the current human population are wrong, and to think otherwise is to contradict the Church?
I would say you are not understanding correctly.
And here is why.

As it stands, for me, the crux of the problem lies with the nature of the argument - it is theory versus truth.

A theory - before it is proven true according to the methodology that governs it - does not contradict an established truth. Only another proven truth can contradict an established truth. Many people have graduated some scientific theories beyond the realm of possible and beyond the realm of probable and into the realm of absolute truth. This is a diploma prematurely awarded.

"in said case* all **major and accepted scientific **theories **concerning the descent of the current human population are wrong,"
*
First, I would say that these theories are not right or wrong - yet - because they are theories and remain in the process of becoming right or wrong.
Second, it is telling that there are many theories - note my added bold - and not one single theory. I say this not to emphasize ‘wrongness’ but to emphasize incompleteness. The process is still ongoing. I can imagine that when one theory is actually proven true and accepted as fact it will be just that - **one **theory that proved true and was accepted as such.
Other proofs might certainly build upon and follow.

Science admittedly self limits its methodology to the exploration material reality. And that’s fine. The Church, most philosophers and theologians do not impose a materialistic limitation on reason. As a result their reasoning* also *considers ideas that are super-natural or outside of nature or the observable material world. Because of this difference in scope it is possible for the Church to arrive at truths that are outside the materialistic parameters of science. This should not surprise anyone. This also does not automatically pit the two rational approaches into contradiction. It makes perfect sense that the scientist cannot prove there is a god using scientific methodology. It make perfect sense that faith did not lead to the discovery of penicillin.

Regarding the human origin question at hand, the Church, employing reason and Revelation, holds the common ascent of all humankind to be from a single pair of human parents - one man and one woman. Of course, science wants to know all the materialistic details, the hows, whats, whens and wheres, and there is nothing inherently wrong with the pursuit of this inquiry, but it is certainly going to stretch the methodology.

In my humble non-scientific opinion, even outside of any faith considerations, it is going to be very difficult for science to prove the details of the human origin question, yea or nay, without hard evidence.

The Church promotes certain truths regarding human origins. They are based on a super-natural truth that God exists. While reason is heavily employed in this assertion, it is outside the parameters of materialistic science to verify.

It would be naive not to mention the very real desire of some to bind all reason exclusively to materialistic reality.

Just some thoughts which I hope work for clarity and not confusion.

Petek
 
I understand the difference between a theory and an established truth. My question is very simple. Does the scientific theory in question directly contradict the truth the Church has declared?
 
I understand the difference between a theory and an established truth. My question is very simple. Does the scientific theory in question directly contradict the truth the Church has declared?
Yes, it does. Science is not capable of answering this question fully.

Second, even on science forums, the whole issue revolves around “rationality” as defined by nontheists.

God bless,
Ed
 
Scientific evidence supports the conclusion that all humans did not descend from just one pair of humans, but a small group of humans with the population at lowest being 1000. Offiial Church teaching contradicts this, and says that the faithful must accept that we are descended from a literal Adam and Eve. Is this a contradiction between faith and reason?
In my humble opinion, saying that scientific evidence supports the conclusion that all humans did not descend from just one pair of humans is a tad optimistic on the part of the media. :rolleyes:

When one reads actual research papers, one comes across assumptions, inferences, speculations, and estimates. These are translated into mathematic formulas to become a computer model for experimental simulated populations.

There is no doubt that what the scientists are learning about anatomies is valuable. But when dealing with an assumed mean population size of 10 to the 5th individuals of an ancestral population over many thousands of years, it would be unreasonable to expect that a computer, limited by the data entered, could predict backwards what was happening to each one of those individual pre-humans in ranges of 50,000 or so years. Even these population and year figures vary according to different research papers.

Current research cannot absolutely rule out the possibility of Adam and Eve. Therefore, as Catholicism teaches, Adam and Eve are real.

Blessings,
granny

Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put paragraph numbers and topics such as Adam, etc. in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
Hello,
On the evolution vs. creation debate, I have heard a couple of points.

I’ve heard claim that as Catholics we are not required to believe in the literal Adam and Eve. We are, however, required to believe that all of humanity came from the Tigress/ Euphrates valley area.

As the Church believes, that everything that lives has a soul. What sets humanity apart from the rest of creation is we have souls that continue after death of the physical body. My belief is that there was a tribe of hominoids living where the Bible tells us. This tribe had souls which terminate at death. Then, two (2) individuals in this tribe were granted (by God) souls which continue after death. These two (2) were Adam and Eve.

sulkow82 SFO
 
Hello,
On the evolution vs. creation debate, I have heard a couple of points.

I’ve heard claim that as Catholics we are not required to believe in the literal Adam and Eve. We are, however, required to believe that all of humanity came from the Tigress/ Euphrates valley area.

As the Church believes, that everything that lives has a soul. What sets humanity apart from the rest of creation is we have souls that continue after death of the physical body. My belief is that there was a tribe of hominoids living where the Bible tells us. This tribe had souls which terminate at death. Then, two (2) individuals in this tribe were granted (by God) souls which continue after death. These two (2) were Adam and Eve.

sulkow82 SFO
:rotfl: April Fool’s day is past.
 
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