Many Adams and Eves?

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where did I state it proves gravity?
I’m sorry, I may have been confusing what you’d said with something someone else said. Looking back through the thread, Ed said ‘I can prove gravity all I want by dropping something’ and I was thinking this was you.

I do not, however, quite know what you (actually) were saying. Could you expand a little bit?
 
I’m sorry, I may have been confusing what you’d said with something someone else said. Looking back through the thread, Ed said ‘I can prove gravity all I want by dropping something’ and I was thinking this was you.

I do not, however, quite know what you (actually) were saying. Could you expand a little bit?
We can observe, test, measure and predict the bouncing ball. That is empirical science.

There are a great many observations that we cannot empirically test…
 
We can observe, test, measure and predict the bouncing ball. That is empirical science.
Granted. Although for gravity, we also observe, measure and predict the movement of stars and planets in the heavens. That gives us more data about universal gravitation than just the limited case of the bouncing ball although there’s no testing in such a situation.
There are a great many observations that we cannot empirically test.
Such as?
 
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edwest2:
Lessens the appeal? Go ahead. Throw a “Come on in! We believe in evolution!” banner over all Catholic Churches. Go ahead and have a greeter at the door of every Church to make sure every Catholic who enters has the “correct” scientific views, and deny entry to those who do not.

God forbid,
Ed
I didn’t write that Ed. That is not my quote, even if it has my name on it. I’m not quite sure what happened there but those are not my words.

Now perhaps you haven’t been back to the other thread about the Bible - whether it’s a story or not. In one of my later posts I stated that one does not have to believe that evolution has occurred and/or is occurring in order to be a Catholic.

It doesn’t matter. The Church has never stated that the theory of evolution is incorrect. I don’t care if you don’t believe in evolution. Really. What I do care about is that you are posting incorrect information about scientific method. And that is not right.

:eek: Why in the world would I want banners stating “We Believe in Evolution!” festooned in churches and greeters at the door who deny entrance of people to Mass because they don’t believe in evolution? What are you talking about? You’re taking one theory and making so much more out of it than is there. It’s a theory, Ed. It’s just a theory. It doesn’t claim proof and it can’t claim proof.

So why are you so angry about the theory of evolution? God can do what He wants, can’t He? Are you saying He couldn’t have used evolution as part of His loving works? I wonder because if that is what you are saying, you are putting limits on God’s omnipotence.

On the one hand you (mistakenly) claim that science can provide proof but on the other hand you’re complaining about a theory which can’t be proven and one you don’t want proven.

The theory of evolution cannot be proven. It is not possible to prove anything using scientific method. Belief (and actually I have a problem with the word “belief” but I don’t know what word to use in its place) in this scientific theory has absolutely no effect on one’s ability to be, become, and/or remain a Catholic, abiding by Church teaching.

So why are you so upset? 🤷

-----Proud to be the Daughter of a Plumber-----
 
You know what I meant…
I’m sorry but I don’t know what you meant. When I read your post it appeared that you were implying that the theory of gravity could be proven.

Is that what you meant?
 
The theory of evolution cannot be proven. It is not possible to prove anything using scientific method. Belief (and actually I have a problem with the word “belief” but I don’t know what word to use in its place) in this scientific theory has absolutely no effect on one’s ability to be, become, and/or remain a Catholic, abiding by Church teaching.
Can you write a little more on this? I’m not quite clear how this holds. What does science do if it doesn’t prove things? I know it’s not proof in the mathematical (or arguably philosophical) sense but surely–for example–the germ theory of disease has been proven.
 
Okay, to clarify:

A. I never said evolution was proven. Not once. I said that the theory, in the way that it can be interpreted and still be compatible with Church teachings, is the one I subscribe too.

B. You can explain the Neanderthal DNA easily. Since BODILY humans and Neanderthals evolved from the same pool (BODILY) then humans and Neanderthals would of course share some DNA. Humans and chimps share 98% of their DNA. Does that mean humans at one time mated with chimps? Of course not.

Of course, I’m not forcing anybody to agree with my views. At all. I’m just trying to explain them.
 
Okay, to clarify:

A. I never said evolution was proven. Not once. I said that the theory, in the way that it can be interpreted and still be compatible with Church teachings, is the one I subscribe too.

B. You can explain the Neanderthal DNA easily. Since BODILY humans and Neanderthals evolved from the same pool (BODILY) then humans and Neanderthals would of course share some DNA. Humans and chimps share 98% of their DNA. Does that mean humans at one time mated with chimps? Of course not.

Of course, I’m not forcing anybody to agree with my views. At all. I’m just trying to explain them.
Regarding B, it’s my understanding that the neanderthal DNA (some?) humans share is that DNA that was previously thought to be unique to neanderthals. It would be the same, I understand, as if we found some of the 2% of DNA chimpanzees do not share with us in some of the population. I’m not sure that this is the case, I haven’t read the article yet but I should. I could very well be mistaken, however.
 
Perhaps early humans DID mate with Neanderthals, and God gave their children human souls, making them fully human in dignity. I don’t know. I wasn’t there. I’m just saying that this seems plausible to me.
 
Regarding B, it’s my understanding that the neanderthal DNA (some?) humans share is that DNA that was previously thought to be unique to neanderthals. It would be the same, I understand, as if we found some of the 2% of DNA chimpanzees do not share with us in some of the population. I’m not sure that this is the case, I haven’t read the article yet but I should. I could very well be mistaken, however.
DNA - Humans -Chimps - 70% similar - latest findings

DNA - Neandertals -Humans -Neandertals are human.

Does this mean that Neandertals belong in our species, Homo sapiens?

Yes.
Interbreeding with fertile offspring in nature. That’s the biological species concept.
Now, some paleontologists might still disagree – maintaining that species are units that can be distinguished morphologically, or by one or more derived features, or any number of other definitions. That’s fine with me, as long as they’re clear. But understand: It does define all non-Africans today as an interspecific hybrid population.
So maybe they want to rethink that one?
 
Can you write a little more on this? I’m not quite clear how this holds. What does science do if it doesn’t prove things? I know it’s not proof in the mathematical (or arguably philosophical) sense but surely–for example–the germ theory of disease has been proven.
Scientific method deals with probabilities. A level of significance is set at the beginning of a research project; it’s designated as “p” (for probability). From most of the studies I’ve read, p<.05 or p<.01. This means that there is a possibility that what is observed was due to chance, either 5% or 1% of the time, respectively.

Other levels can be used, but as far as I know there is no p=0. There is *always *uncertainty.

People used to think the sun revolved around the earth and they had “proof” for it, right? I mean it’s obvious because the sun rises in the east and goes up high towards the west and then sets on the west side and goes over to the opposite side of the earth.

But they were wrong.

Scientific method takes care of this problem by not allowing proof. It doesn’t mean that significant findings can’t be used in a practical way, such as germs causing disease. But look at the following fallacy:

I had a headache.
I took some aspirin and the headache went away.
Ergo, the aspirin got rid of the headache.

There are other reasons why the headache could have gone away (less stress, a dark room, an opiate, etc.) and there may be other reasons why germs and disease are correlated. There’s always that chance, even if it’s the tiniest chance imaginable.

A theory doesn’t show proof, but it can show a significant correlation between a particular germ and a particular disease. Even if it’s not proof, it’s still useful. It’s the best we have. Theories are remarkably useful because each one is an attempt to get closer to Truth. Each study is discussed and confounding factors are removed and other problems are fixed, so the study can be done again and maybe the same results will be found.

If study after study after study shows the same results, that’s pretty close to proof. But it isn’t proof. It’s still a theory but very useful for medicine because it’s something to work with. Medicines and vaccines can be developed. Surgeons now know they need to actually wash their hands and wear surgical gloves and masks because the old idea about dirty hands making no difference during surgery was shown to be incorrect (and that was done by a hero of mine - one Dr. Lister who died in a mad-house because he was taunted and mocked by other physicians until he literally went insane. You can still buy Listerine).

I remember when tobacco companies were all gung-ho about how it couldn’t be scientifically proven that smoking cigarettes causes cancer. And they were right - it can’t be proven because of the limits of scientific method. But, personally, I’m pretty sure that smoking cigarettes causes cancer, at least in most people and I would hope my physician would be aware of that, too. I wouldn’t want to take the chance.

It’s one thing to conduct research and publish it, and another thing to put a theory to practical use. Scientific method is used to conduct research but it doesn’t have to be used when doing practical work.

Does this help?
 
Scientific method deals with probabilities. A level of significance is set at the beginning of a research project; it’s designated as “p” (for probability). From most of the studies I’ve read, p<.05 or p<.01. This means that there is a possibility that what is observed was due to chance, either 5% or 1% of the time, respectively.

Other levels can be used, but as far as I know there is no p=0. There is *always *uncertainty.
But that’s not all science is. Chemistry, for example, is much more like this than, again for example, cosmology. Science is not reducible to statistics but I would grant that uncertainty is always part of science in that humility is part of the discipline.
People used to think the sun revolved around the earth and they had “proof” for it, right? I mean it’s obvious because the sun rises in the east and goes up high towards the west and then sets on the west side and goes over to the opposite side of the earth.
I don’t remember who said this but someone was explaining this mindset (that it’s obvious the sun revolves around Earth because it ‘looks that way’) and he asked ‘what should it look like if Earth revolved around the sun?’
Scientific method takes care of this problem by not allowing proof. It doesn’t mean that significant findings can’t be used in a practical way, such as germs causing disease. But look at the following fallacy:

I had a headache.
I took some aspirin and the headache went away.
Ergo, the aspirin got rid of the headache.

There are other reasons why the headache could have gone away (less stress, a dark room, an opiate, etc.) and there may be other reasons why germs and disease are correlated. There’s always that chance, even if it’s the tiniest chance imaginable.
So you’re saying empirical, scientific observation has not proved Earth orbits the sun or that Earth is roughly spherical in shape? The above post hoc ergo propter hot issue is why we conduct double blind trials. If the vast majority of the people who took the aspirin had their headache go away and the the majority of those who got the placebo didn’t then isn’t it fair to say that we’ve shown (i.e. proved) that aspirin is more effective at treating a headache than taking a sugar pill? Even more so every time this experiment is repeated.
If study after study after study shows the same results, that’s pretty close to proof. But it isn’t proof. It’s still a theory but very useful for medicine because it’s something to work with. Medicines and vaccines can be developed. Surgeons now know they need to actually wash their hands and wear surgical gloves and masks because the old idea about dirty hands making no difference during surgery was shown to be incorrect.
Aren’t the dead patients of anti-hand washing doctors proof that something that’s removed by washing hands causes disease?
I remember when tobacco companies were all gung-ho about how it couldn’t be scientifically proven that smoking cigarettes causes cancer. And they were right - it can’t be proven because of the limits of scientific method. But, personally, I’m pretty sure that smoking cigarettes causes cancer, at least in most people and I would hope my physician would be aware of that, too. I wouldn’t want to take the chance.
They weren’t right. They pulled every dirty trick out of the book to try to undercut studies that conclusively showed that smoking (all other things being equal) greatly increases the likelihood of someone getting cancer. That is not to say that every person who smokes will get cancer of course but there is surely a proven correlation.
It’s one thing to conduct research and publish it, and another thing to put a theory to practical use. Scientific method is used to conduct research but it doesn’t have to be used when doing practical work.

Does this help?
It does. I guess the only thing that would be helpful for me to understand is rather simple–I hope. Please define the term ‘proof (n)’ or ‘prove (v)’ in your own words. I’m not trying to trap you I really want to know what you mean. It seems that you mean that ‘proof’ intends an explanation that is 100% true with no possible other explanation having any further ground to fit the data. For me–and the vast majority of scientists–99.9(999… whatever)% is more than good enough.
 
I don’t believe in evolution, but I accept it as the most cogent explanation for biodiversity on earth. I believe in God.

Plate tectonics and gravity are not proven either; they remain theories, and excellent ones.
Because I believe that human nature is uniquely distinct from all the "cogent explanations for the biodiversity on earth,’ is why I accept the Catholic teaching that Adam and Eve are the first, two sole parents of the human species. I also believe that Jesus Christ, true God, founded the Catholic Church. Therefore I trust the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred from the moment of conception.
 
I wouldn’t read Richard Dawkins at all, personally. He’s an outspoken anti-religious atheist who arote that lovely gem “The God Delusion”.

I believe in evolution (the version reconciled by the Church’s doctrines and dogmas, of course). But it is not proven, it’s a theory.

Anyway, I’ve always been interested in the possiblity that perhaps there were humanoid peoples with no souls around…a large group of them, but then God imbued one man and one woman with human souls, and they formed our human race, the homo sapiens. Perhaps the rest of them were the Neanderthals, and died off during the Ice Age.
In order for any living organism to be a human, there has to be a spiritual soul per definition of human nature. No soul, no human.
 
Because I believe that human nature is uniquely distinct from all the "cogent explanations for the biodiversity on earth,’ is why I accept the Catholic teaching that Adam and Eve are the first, two sole parents of the human species. I also believe that Jesus Christ, true God, founded the Catholic Church. Therefore I trust the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred from the moment of conception.
You realize that the first part of that (about Adam and Eve) is not really Church teaching, right?
 
DNA - Humans -Chimps - 70% similar - latest findings

DNA - Neandertals -Humans -Neandertals are human.

Does this mean that Neandertals belong in our species, Homo sapiens?

No.

Only living organisms with a true, fully complete human nature can be in the same species as you and me.

With researchers such as John Hawks, one has to be aware that the references to ancestry, etc., do not necessarily mean that the ancestors were true humans with an unique unification of spirit/matter, rational/corporeal, soul and body.

It should also be noted that Hawks, one of our country’s prominent scientists, is in the middle of a range war between theories regarding the origin of humanity. The reason that I personally like him is that he brings to science different ways of looking at gene flow. In the link, which is his blog, Hawks is viewing the Max Planck group contribution as a clever strategy because it helps to obviate some major problems with ancient DNA – you don’t have all the parts, and the parts you do have probably contain a lot of sequencing errors of various kinds.

In my humble opinion, one needs to study Neandertals as a whole. Do they come before Adam and Eve or are they descended from Adam and Eve?
 
buffalo;6621258:
DNA - Humans -Chimps - 70% similar - latest findings

DNA - Neandertals -Humans -Neandertals are human.

Does this mean that Neandertals belong in our species, Homo sapiens?
No.

Only living organisms with a true, fully complete human nature can be in the same species as you and me.

With researchers such as John Hawks, one has to be aware that the references to ancestry, etc., do not necessarily mean that the ancestors were true humans with an unique unification of spirit/matter, rational/corporeal, soul and body.

If I understand you correct - of course Hawks is going to try to fit this into the evo paradigm, excluding Adam and Eve. Was this your point granny?

I would posit that Neandertals were fully human just as you and I.
 
Scientific evidence supports the conclusion that all humans did not descend from just one pair of humans, but a small group of humans with the population at lowest being 1000. Official Church teaching contradicts this, and says that the faithful must accept that we are descended from a literal Adam and Eve. Is this a contradiction between faith and reason?
This does not make logical sense to me either from a religious or scientific basis. Did the space aliens beam down 1000 people? Did the infinitesimally small chance of Natural selection in the direction of humanity suddenly and spontaneously pop out 1000? Even under Natural Selection a Single Genetic Mutation would be called MAN and all subsequent offspring from its mating with the previous generations of Monkeys would be called man as well.

I would like to see the scientific evidence you cite and “IF” it says something to the effect that current DNA sampling suggests that 1000 humans existed. I might agree with this statement as I would interpret it to mean that they have not yet found a sample of genetic material to test up the Pyramid to the first couple as of yet.

If religious or not it must be either Adam and Eve or a Darwinian Man and its Ape, although transporters or a Star Gate would be cool too… Ooops where did they come from then… Dang we would still be at the same point …Just like the theory of Comets bringing life…hahaha where did the Comets get it?

Where did the energy for the big bang come from? I recall some law about equal and opposite forces being required for movement?
 
In my humble opinion, one needs to study Neandertals as a whole. Do they come before Adam and Eve or are they descended from Adam and Eve?
Neandertals certainly are descendants of Noah’s family since God’s judgement in the Flood was not passed onto them so they could not predate Noah. Neandertals and us can thank Noah that he believed and trusted God’s word to be true, unlike many theologians today.
 
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