Many Adams and Eves?

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I have never seen an actual example of irreducible complexity that cannot be explained by evolution.
So, you have proof that e.g. the well discussed bacterial flagellum, or the human eye evolved. Please tell us the sequence of random genetic mutations that caused it.

Oh, don’t have those details? Then you have nothing.

What you have is Evolution Did It Somehow. Chance of the gaps. Zilch. Nada. Nothing.
 
Because its theological supposition is that something (i.e. god) created those structures. Aside from the fact that it begs the question because anything sufficiently advanced to create ‘irreducibly complex’ structures must itself be irreducibly complex which must therefore be designed. This leads to an infinite regress (unless it’s turtles all the way down).

I have never seen an actual example of irreducible complexity that cannot be explained by evolution. Further, why does the National Science Teachers Association term intelligent design ‘psuedoscience’ and was it found to not be science in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District if it is–as you suggest–science?
Evolution operates from the framework that nothing created life. It has been shown that life does not arise spontaneously. So far, no one has created life in the lab.

I recommend the book Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer and the web site uncommondescent.

I’m skeptical of evolutionary claims.

I’ve read the Dover trial transcript. What a mess. I’ll just say that the science of Intelligent Design will continue even if a court calls it something else. If humans found an alien device on Mars, and we could not determine who left it there or who made it, wouldn’t we still examine it to see how it works? That’s Intelligent Design. There is no need to know who made it.

God bless,
Ed
 
The *Daily Mail *is a right-wing tabloid that is essentially worthless as a news source, and is involved in numerous libel suits. If that’s as good as you’ve got Buffalo, you are welcome to it.

I’ll take it from George Coyne’s own mouth – I had lunch with him a few months ago – and from numerous mutual friends who know him well. He stepped down as director of the Vatican Observatory for health reasons and because at 73 he was finding the job rather arduous.

StAnastasia
I couldn’t stand it - here I am back already (temporarily). I’d never heard of the Daily Mail, but after reading this one article I find that I agree with you completely.

It is the author’s conclusion that Coyne was “sacked” for his beliefs on evolution. The article is clear - the reason he was removed from his post has not been announced by the Pope or official Vatican sources at this time (it may have been announced in another article but I’m basing my conclusions on the referenced article).

It’s like an article from the National Enquirer! It’s full of assumptions and conclusions based on nothing but the author’s bias, IMHO.

This is from the article:

Although the Vatican did not give reasons for Father Coynes replacement, sources close to the Holy See say that Benedict would have been unhappy with the priest’s public opposition to intelligent design theory.” [bolding is mine]

So I guess we are supposed to believe these unnamed sources which are presumably close to the Holy See and claim to know why the Pope would be unhappy with Coyne? Can’t the Pope speak for Himself? These “sources” aren’t identified by name. They are just there.

It’s a poorly written, illogical article and I take it with less than a grain of salt.

I will not reply to any post with responses inserted into my quote.
 
Evolution operates from the framework that nothing created life. It has been shown that life does not arise spontaneously. So far, no one has created life in the lab.

I recommend the book Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer and the web site uncommondescent.

I’m skeptical of evolutionary claims.

I’ve read the Dover trial transcript. What a mess. I’ll just say that the science of Intelligent Design will continue even if a court calls it something else. If humans found an alien device on Mars, and we could not determine who left it there or who made it, wouldn’t we still examine it to see how it works? That’s Intelligent Design. There is no need to know who made it.

God bless,
Ed
Where did you get the idea that “evolution” operates from the framework that nothing created life? No human being can create life in a petri dish or a test tube or by combining a spermatozoan with an ovum. Only God can create life.

God created life. God created everything. I’m saying that as a scientist who accepts the theory of evolution as a theory.

You really don’t understand, do you?

-----Proud to be the Daughter of a Plumber-----

I will not reply to any post with responses inserted into my quote.
 
I’ll just say that the science of Intelligent Design will continue even if a court calls it something else.
"The basic concept of intelligent design comes in two parts and is as simple as it is satisfying for those unwilling to think deeply about the natural world, science, or the nature of religion. Part one, stretching way back to the ancient Greeks, notes that nature is so perfectly integrated that it must have been designed just as we see it. Part two, largely attributed to Lehigh University biologist Michael Behe, says that while some aspects of nature might certainly have changed (evolved?) over time, others are so complex that they must always have existed in the form we find them in today. Indeed, he coined the term “irreducibly complex” to explain such structures. Change anything at all in these irreducibly complex structures and they fail to work.

"Both parts of ID are spectacularly wrong.

“Indeed, demonstrating imperfect design in humans has become something of a fascinating cottage industry. Listen, for example to Abby Hafer, a physiologist at Curry College, discuss five serious flaws, from the blind spot in the human retina to the placement of human testicles, on NPR’s Here & Now. In his PNAS article, Avise simply extends this analysis to the human genome discussing myriad serious problems arising from “gratuitous gene complexities” that no self-respecting designer would tolerate.”

huffingtonpost.com/michael-zimmerman/intelligent-design-scient_b_571703.html
 
God isn’t directly involved in processes imo. God creates and the creature is endowed with the necessary freedom, power’s, qualities, characteristics, required to achieve it’s intended end. Perhaps processes of change in living and non-living matter, with man as it’s end, is created with it’s own freedom to raise the necessary components for man to be formed.
 
**The *Daily Mail ***is a right-wing tabloid that is essentially worthless as a news source, and is involved in numerous libel suits. If that’s as good as you’ve got Buffalo, you are welcome to it.

StAnastasia
snip…

“Indeed, demonstrating imperfect design in humans has become something of a fascinating cottage industry. Listen, for example to Abby Hafer, a physiologist at Curry College, discuss five serious flaws, from the blind spot in the human retina to the placement of human testicles, on NPR’s Here & Now. In his PNAS article, Avise simply extends this analysis to the human genome discussing myriad serious problems arising from “gratuitous gene complexities” that no self-respecting designer would tolerate.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-zimmerman/intelligent-design-scient_b_571703.html
Oh, the Daily Mail isn’t nearly as good as the huffington post. LOL LOL LOL.
 
Pardon me, but this is one of my cranky mornings. 😉

“more nuanced” ? ? ?

There is a flat out scientific difference between creation of the physical/material universe and the two sole first parents of the human species. To truly understand this difference and why Catholics are obligated to believe in two sole parents of the human species, Adam and Eve (or whomever you wish to call Jane and John Doe) do check of Genesis 1: 26 - 28 as it is interpreted by the Catholic Church.
I don’t believe there is a definitive interpretation of that passage by the Catholic Church.(There are very few “official interpretations” of Scripture passages, despite everyone’s impression to the contrary.)
Regarding the posted quote. "Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species (whether as individuals or in populations) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention. Acting indirectly through causal chains operating from the beginning of cosmic history, God prepared the way for what Pope John Paul II has called “an ontological leap…the moment of transition to the spiritual.”

I understand most of the many ways today’s theologians can nuance – so what is really being implied in this quote which is really about science and not Catholic Doctrine regarding Adam and Eve? Or is my one opened eye missing some nuance? If so, please elaborate.
Well, I do not claim to be able to make infallible interpretation of Church documents any more than I claim infallibility for my interpretation of Scripture, but what it appears to say is that whether the first members of the human species emerged as individuals or in populations, their transformation into beings created in the image of God was the result of a direct intervention by God. So I think the document sidesteps the question, precisely because it is NOT the point.
 
A little tidbit from: (note the authors)

What Darwin Got Wrong - Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini

In fact, we both claim to be out-right, card-carrying, signed-up, dyed-in-the-wool, no-holds-barred atheists. We therefore seek thoroughly naturalistic explanations of the facts of evolution, although we expect that they will turn out to be quite complex, as scientific explanations often are.

…We close these prefatory comments with a brief homily: we’ve been told by more than one of our colleagues that, even if Darwin was substantially wrong to claim that natural selection is the mechanism of evolution, nonetheless we shouldn’t say so. Not, anyhow, in public. To do that is, however inadvertently, to align oneself with the Forces of Darkness, whose goal it is to bring Science into disrepute. Well, we don’t agree. We think the way to discomfort the Forces of Darkness is to follow the arguments wherever they may lead, spreading such light as one can in the course of doing so. What makes the Forces of Darkness dark is that they aren’t willing to do that. What makes Science scientific is that it is.

Hmmmm - hide it? :hmmm: More bad news for StA and the 200000 working biologists.
 
"The basic concept of intelligent design comes in two parts and is as simple as it is satisfying for those unwilling to think deeply about the natural world, science, or the nature of religion. Part one, stretching way back to the ancient Greeks, notes that nature is so perfectly integrated that it must have been designed just as we see it. Part two, largely attributed to Lehigh University biologist Michael Behe, says that while some aspects of nature might certainly have changed (evolved?) over time, others are so complex that they must always have existed in the form we find them in today. Indeed, he coined the term “irreducibly complex” to explain such structures. Change anything at all in these irreducibly complex structures and they fail to work.

"Both parts of ID are spectacularly wrong.

“Indeed, demonstrating imperfect design in humans has become something of a fascinating cottage industry. Listen, for example to Abby Hafer, a physiologist at Curry College, discuss five serious flaws, from the blind spot in the human retina to the placement of human testicles, on NPR’s Here & Now. In his PNAS article, Avise simply extends this analysis to the human genome discussing myriad serious problems arising from “gratuitous gene complexities” that no self-respecting designer would tolerate.”

huffingtonpost.com/michael-zimmerman/intelligent-design-scient_b_571703.html
spectacularly – Hyperbole is one clue. Intelligent Design presents sound reasons. It can be shown that the cell contains intricate nanomachinery far beyond the present capabilities of human engineering. The way the codes are read and the way they are stored are analogous to the way humans store and utilize information on a computer. The argument is not a simple matter of arguing for complexity but specific instructions that are read in more than one way and used for a specific outcome.

At the web site uncommondescent, one poster in particular indicated his fear that the Designer might turn out to be the Christian God while at the same time pointing out how ‘incorrectly’ the eye was designed. Another poster pointed out, incorrect compared to what? Given the capability, how would anyone design a better or ‘perfect’ eye? He went on to ask if anyone reading the comments ever had trouble with the ‘blind spot.’ Apparently, no one had.

The ongoing attempt to deflect attention from Intelligent Design, and to have a Scope’s Monkey-like show trial over it, has not stopped continuing research. Intelligent Design proponents, including Stephen Meyer, predicted that “Junk DNA” would turn out to be functional, which has come to pass, as opposed to the wishful thinking of Dawkins, et al.

No matter what is said against it, ID shows signs of not only valuable insight regarding the function of the human genome but insight into the deficiencies of evolutionary theory.

Current research into the human genome does not rely on anything evolution related, but on simple trial and error experiments and attempts to identify function as related to some particular portion of it. Research into new medicines still involves exposing hundreds of samples to hundreds of combinations of chemicals in the hope that (A) one will work, and (B) the resulting medication will not be so toxic as to cause more harm than good.

The current media obsession is to replace faith in God with faith in science, which simply translates into replacing God with the mind of man as the new thing to worship. Man is so smart today (as opposed to a few weeks ago) that certain things can be stated with certainty, including the idea that religion was just a mechanical phase that man went through on his way to becoming modern. A bunch of baloney if I ever heard it. This will result in the promotion in the post-theological god who is just a symbol, nothing more, freeing people to believe in the false idea that their lives and they themselves are accountable to nothing and no one.

And to paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke – we will become more powerful than any god we can imagine, or “Ye shall be as gods.” Satan - Garden of Eden.

Beware, my fellow Catholics, of those who hold the knowledge of men above the knowledge given by God.

God bless,
Ed
 
God isn’t directly involved in processes imo. God creates and the creature is endowed with the necessary freedom, power’s, qualities, characteristics, required to achieve it’s intended end. Perhaps processes of change in living and non-living matter, with man as it’s end, is created with it’s own freedom to raise the necessary components for man to be formed.
“its own freedom” Where? Non-living matter has no intelligence and neither does primordial soup.

God bless,
Ed
 
"The basic concept of intelligent design comes in two parts and is as simple as it is satisfying for those unwilling to think deeply about the natural world, science, or the nature of religion. Part one, stretching way back to the ancient Greeks, notes that nature is so perfectly integrated that it must have been designed just as we see it. Part two, largely attributed to Lehigh University biologist Michael Behe, says that while some aspects of nature might certainly have changed (evolved?) over time, others are so complex that they must always have existed in the form we find them in today. Indeed, he coined the term “irreducibly complex” to explain such structures. Change anything at all in these irreducibly complex structures and they fail to work.

"Both parts of ID are spectacularly wrong.

“Indeed, demonstrating imperfect design in humans has become something of a fascinating cottage industry. Listen, for example to Abby Hafer, a physiologist at Curry College, discuss five serious flaws, from the blind spot in the human retina to the placement of human testicles, on NPR’s Here & Now. In his PNAS article, Avise simply extends this analysis to the human genome discussing myriad serious problems arising from “gratuitous gene complexities” that no self-respecting designer would tolerate.”

huffingtonpost.com/michael-zimmerman/intelligent-design-scient_b_571703.html
Again, you did not read the latest on the Muller cells.

**Evolution gave flawed eye better vision **

It LOOKS wrong, but the strange, “backwards” structure of the vertebrate retina actually improves vision. Certain cells act as optical fibres, and rather than being just a workaround to make up for the eye’s peculiarities, they help filter and focus light, making images clearer and keeping colours sharp.
Although rods and cones are responsible for capturing light, they are in a curious position. Hidden at the base of the retina, they are covered by several layers of cells as well as the bed of nerves that carries visual information to the brain. One result is a blind spot in our visual field, leading the vertebrate retina to be listed among evolution’s biggest “mistakes”.
Light clearly gets through, however, and in 2007 researchers analysing the retinas of guinea pigs reported that the glial cells which nourish and physically support the bed of neurons also act as optical fibres for the rods and cones. These Müller cells are funnel-shaped, with wide tops that cover the surface of the retina and a long slender body that guides light to the receptors below.

Now look at Ken Miller storytelling:


However, Kenneth Miller, a biologist at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island cautions that this doesn’t mean that the backwards retina itself helps us to see. Rather, it emphasises the extent to which evolution has coped with the flawed layout. “The shape, orientation and structure of the Müller cells help the retina to overcome one of the principal shortcomings of its inside-out wiring,” says Miller.
The new understanding of the role of Müller cells might find applications in more successful eye transplants and better camera designs, says Ribak.

Sounds like design to me.
 
I don’t believe there is a definitive interpretation of that passage by the Catholic Church.(There are very few “official interpretations” of Scripture passages, despite everyone’s impression to the contrary.)

Well, I do not claim to be able to make infallible interpretation of Church documents any more than I claim infallibility for my interpretation of Scripture, but what it appears to say is that whether the first members of the human species emerged as individuals or in populations, their transformation into beings created in the image of God was the result of a direct intervention by God. So I think the document sidesteps the question, precisely because it is NOT the point.
Then what is the point? The title of the thread is" Many Adams and Eves?" So which is it?

God bless,
Ed
 
“its own freedom” Where? Non-living matter has no intelligence and neither does primordial soup.

God bless,
Ed
Not the kind of freedom that involves choice but the kind of freedom that allows ‘being’ among other varieties of nonliving and living beings to unfold their intended end in more than one way. Inherent in the process is a freedom because the intended end is not restricted to just one path to fruition. This way freedom is inherent and creation can be it’s own designer of the end God intended.
 
I don’t believe there is a definitive interpretation of that passage by the Catholic Church.(There are very few “official interpretations” of Scripture passages, despite everyone’s impression to the contrary.)
Thank you for your patience and your reply.

Genesis 1: 27 is the footnote for the Catholic teaching found in paragraph 355 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. As one reads through the *Catechism, *many Scripture references are found in the footnotes.

In order to fully understand the reality of Adam and Eve and the reality of our own human nature, one has to study many Catechism paragraphs starting with paragraph 355 and ending with paragraph 421. Paragraph 422 begins the good news of Jesus Christ.

Blessings,
granny

One can put paragraph numbers and topics such as Adam, etc. in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
Not the kind of freedom that involves choice but the kind of freedom that allows ‘being’ among other varieties of nonliving and living beings to unfold their intended end in more than one way. Inherent in the process is a freedom because the intended end is not restricted to just one path to fruition. This way freedom is inherent and creation can be it’s own designer of the end God intended.
Interesting. I can see a basic living organism being free to adapt to various outside influences. But I doubt that this applies to fully complete true human nature which is actually beyond scientific comprehension.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred.
 
Not the kind of freedom that involves choice but the kind of freedom that allows ‘being’ among other varieties of nonliving and living beings to unfold their intended end in more than one way. Inherent in the process is a freedom because the intended end is not restricted to just one path to fruition. This way freedom is inherent and creation can be it’s own designer of the end God intended.
God has intelligence and creation can be its own… what? It has no intelligence. According to the document Communion and Stewardship, if there was a developmental path then it occurred infallibly. Assigning intelligence to a process and making it “its own designer” does not make sense.

God bless,
Ed
 
Evolution operates from the framework that nothing created life. It has been shown that life does not arise spontaneously. So far, no one has created life in the lab.
Evolution of existing life and abiogenesis are radically different questions. Evolution says nothing about where life came from.
I’m skeptical of evolutionary claims.
I’m glad for that clarification; I wasn’t sure. =P
I’ve read the Dover trial transcript. What a mess. I’ll just say that the science of Intelligent Design will continue even if a court calls it something else. If humans found an alien device on Mars, and we could not determine who left it there or who made it, wouldn’t we still examine it to see how it works? That’s Intelligent Design. There is no need to know who made it.
I can understand not thinking a court has standing to answer scientific questions but the National Science Teachers Association calls intelligent design psuedoscience too.

I don’t think there is a meaningful parallel between an artifact and a living thing. That said, of course we want to see how it works (i.e. what it does and how it does it) but I–for one–most surely do need to know who made it.
 
Most of the time, I try to avoid debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Which is the same as debating how many ways could God have done this or that. Please see post 241 above for an example.

Human nature is a distinct unification of the rational/corporeal. God has explained His purpose for human beings whose nature of necessity has to include both the immaterial and material. I accept Catholic doctrines regarding the human nature of Adam and his descendents.

I understand the scientific difference between the immaterial and material and have posted this on other threads. If you wish information about this difference, let me know and I will post something after my Mother’s Day travels.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred.
Where exactly and specifically did God explain His purpose? Thanks.
 
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