Many Adams and Eves?

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If they are two sole parents of all humanity, then reason Jesus needed to give his life for us to “pay” for our sins makes sense.
Jesus “paying” for our sins is an old-fashioned juridical model of the atonement. This “substitutionary” model makes God into some sort of cosmic policeman exacting vengeance.
-all sin could not be passed onto all people via descendancy
Sure it can – we all sin because since is part of the human condition, symbolically known as “Adam’s curse.”
-if multiple Adam and Eves existed, why would the sin of one set have affected the other
Humans sin because our evolutionary emergence into moral consciousness made us aware of sinful acts and their consequences.
-Jesus wouldn’t need to be called the “last Adam”
Why not?
-God didn’t make them male and female in the beginning since the assumption is we have come from male and female apes
That’s a common mistake of people who don’t understand science. We evolved not from apes but from a common ancestor to the apes.
If Genesis stories are allegorical/metaphorical then where does the myth stop and reality start.
Myth is reality, stated in poetic and symbolic and allegorical form.
 
Jesus “paying” for our sins is an old-fashioned juridical model of the atonement. This “substitutionary” model makes God into some sort of cosmic policeman exacting vengeance.

Sure it can – we all sin because since is part of the human condition, symbolically known as “Adam’s curse.”
The difficulty here lies in the misconception of Original Sin.

The Catholic teaching is that the result of Original Sin is that Adam was deprived of his original state of holiness. As one recalls, Catholic teaching is that God called Adam and all his descendents as one body of one man to share in God’s own life through knowledge and love. When Adam freely chose to prefer himself over God, he scorned his Creator and his own well-being. Adam’s deprived state is transmitted by propagation, that is, the transmission of Adam’s human nature to his descendents which are us.

Blessings,
granny

Catholic teaching **regarding Adam and Original Sin **is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put paragraph numbers and topics such as Adam, etc. in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
The Catholic teaching is that the result of Original Sin is that Adam was deprived of his original state of holiness. As one recalls, Catholic teaching is that God called Adam and all his descendents as one body of one man to share in God’s own life through knowledge and love. When Adam freely chose to prefer himself over God, he scorned his Creator and his own well-being. Adam’s deprived state is transmitted by propagation, that is, the transmission of Adam’s human nature to his descendents which are us.
Indeed.
 
The difficulty here lies in the misconception of Original Sin.

The Catholic teaching is that the result of Original Sin is that Adam was deprived of his original state of holiness. As one recalls, Catholic teaching is that God called Adam and all his descendents as one body of one man to share in God’s own life through knowledge and love. When Adam freely chose to prefer himself over God, he scorned his Creator and his own well-being. Adam’s deprived state is transmitted by propagation, that is, the transmission of Adam’s human nature to his descendents which are us.
I don’t think there’s any misconception of original sin. Your words, “Adam’s deprived state is transmitted by propagation” seems to make the currently-described doctrine of original sin totally dependent on a lack of polygenism. In Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII described polygenism as largely incompatible with the doctrine of original sin. As he describes it, evidence that the first humans were only two people would collide with the doctrine, and reverberate through the entire theology of Catholicism.

Vatican II helped fix this problem, acknowledging (as my signature quote says) that elements of truth can come from outside the Church, such as Galileo and Copernicus disproving Ptolomaic geocentrism (the Church previously had erred grievously in persecuting Galileo). This stance, thankfully, stands in stark opposition to previous positions taken by, for instance, Pius X, who railed against “modernism,” unfortunately throwing the baby (science) out with the bathwater (dialectical materialism). Thomism itself relies very heavily on objective truth, bringing reason and faith into union. We must hold all our doctrines up to the light of truth, so that we might better understand our mission as the Church of Christ.

The totality of mainstream objective evidence validates the reasonableness of such once-daffy theories as gravity, the atomic nature of matter, the absolute speed of light, DNA coding of proteins that define our physiology and anatomy, the germ theory of disease, the movement of tectonic plates, meteoric bombardment of the earth, the nature of background radio radiation originating from the beginning of our universe, the generation and extinction of biological species, and so many other theories upon which modern technology is based. Evidence also definitively disproves (as far as we are able to do so using modern biostatistics) the possibility that the amount of genetic variability in the current human population can be explained by all of humanity descending from a single mating couple of Homo sapiens living within the last 10,000 years.

Allegorically, I can accept that human “fallenness” gives us a behavioral predisposition to sin, and our neuropsychological makeup leads us to pride and arrogance. However, until such time as I read a paper indicating that current observations of human population genetics can be explained by a literal reading of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis (not the other story, where man and woman are created together), I find it impossible to accept “interngenerational propagation of concupiscence” without some theoretical explanation by scientific evidence. In fact, I would be bearing false witness if I did. In this regard, honesty places a check on my obedient acceptance of doctrine.

As the Church of Christ, we now face a tremendously important choice that, in my view, will determine whether we continue to grow and evangelize or to slowly lose believers and babies to atheism and antirational spiritualism devoid of Tradition (e.g., the growth of Pentecostalism in South America). Unless we can talk totally forthrightly with both, evangelically and forthrightly, we belie a shame of being unable to come to terms with the Enlightenment.
 
I don’t think there’s any misconception of original sin. Your words, “Adam’s deprived state is transmitted by propagation” seems to make the currently-described doctrine of original sin totally dependent on a lack of polygenism. In Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII described polygenism as largely incompatible with the doctrine of original sin. As he describes it, evidence that the first humans were only two people would collide with the doctrine, and reverberate through the entire theology of Catholicism.

Vatican II helped fix this problem, acknowledging (as my signature quote says) that elements of truth can come from outside the Church, such as Galileo and Copernicus disproving Ptolomaic geocentrism (the Church previously had erred grievously in persecuting Galileo). This stance, thankfully, stands in stark opposition to previous positions taken by, for instance, Pius X, who railed against “modernism,” unfortunately throwing the baby (science) out with the bathwater (dialectical materialism). Thomism itself relies very heavily on objective truth, bringing reason and faith into union. We must hold all our doctrines up to the light of truth, so that we might better understand our mission as the Church of Christ.

The totality of mainstream objective evidence validates the reasonableness of such once-daffy theories as gravity, the atomic nature of matter, the absolute speed of light, DNA coding of proteins that define our physiology and anatomy, the germ theory of disease, the movement of tectonic plates, meteoric bombardment of the earth, the nature of background radio radiation originating from the beginning of our universe, the generation and extinction of biological species, and so many other theories upon which modern technology is based. Evidence also definitively disproves (as far as we are able to do so using modern biostatistics) the possibility that the amount of genetic variability in the current human population can be explained by all of humanity descending from a single mating couple of Homo sapiens living within the last 10,000 years.

Allegorically, I can accept that human “fallenness” gives us a behavioral predisposition to sin, and our neuropsychological makeup leads us to pride and arrogance. However, until such time as I read a paper indicating that current observations of human population genetics can be explained by a literal reading of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis (not the other story, where man and woman are created together), I find it impossible to accept “interngenerational propagation of concupiscence” without some theoretical explanation by scientific evidence. In fact, I would be bearing false witness if I did. In this regard, honesty places a check on my obedient acceptance of doctrine.

As the Church of Christ, we now face a tremendously important choice that, in my view, will determine whether we continue to grow and evangelize or to slowly lose believers and babies to atheism and antirational spiritualism devoid of Tradition (e.g., the growth of Pentecostalism in South America). Unless we can talk totally forthrightly with both, evangelically and forthrightly, we belie a shame of being unable to come to terms with the Enlightenment.
The Church made no grievous error with Galileo. This is a falsehood widely transmitted in the secular community. The short version is this: Galileo was out of control. He was running around yelling, I did it! before all the facts were in.

catholic.com/library/Galileo_Controversy.asp

God bless,
Ed
 
I don’t think there’s any misconception of original sin. Your words, “Adam’s deprived state is transmitted by propagation” seems to make the currently-described doctrine of original sin totally dependent on a lack of polygenism. In Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII described polygenism as largely incompatible with the doctrine of original sin. As he describes it, evidence that the first humans were only two people would collide with the doctrine, and reverberate through the entire theology of Catholicism.

Vatican II helped fix this problem, acknowledging (as my signature quote says) that elements of truth can come from outside the Church, such as Galileo and Copernicus disproving Ptolomaic geocentrism (the Church previously had erred grievously in persecuting Galileo). This stance, thankfully, stands in stark opposition to previous positions taken by, for instance, Pius X, who railed against “modernism,” unfortunately throwing the baby (science) out with the bathwater (dialectical materialism). Thomism itself relies very heavily on objective truth, bringing reason and faith into union. We must hold all our doctrines up to the light of truth, so that we might better understand our mission as the Church of Christ.

The totality of mainstream objective evidence validates the reasonableness of such once-daffy theories as gravity, the atomic nature of matter, the absolute speed of light, DNA coding of proteins that define our physiology and anatomy, the germ theory of disease, the movement of tectonic plates, meteoric bombardment of the earth, the nature of background radio radiation originating from the beginning of our universe, the generation and extinction of biological species, and so many other theories upon which modern technology is based. Evidence also definitively disproves (as far as we are able to do so using modern biostatistics) the possibility that the amount of genetic variability in the current human population can be explained by all of humanity descending from a single mating couple of Homo sapiens living within the last 10,000 years.

Allegorically, I can accept that human “fallenness” gives us a behavioral predisposition to sin, and our neuropsychological makeup leads us to pride and arrogance. However, until such time as I read a paper indicating that current observations of human population genetics can be explained by a literal reading of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis (not the other story, where man and woman are created together), I find it impossible to accept “interngenerational propagation of concupiscence” without some theoretical explanation by scientific evidence. In fact, I would be bearing false witness if I did. In this regard, honesty places a check on my obedient acceptance of doctrine.

As the Church of Christ, we now face a tremendously important choice that, in my view, will determine whether we continue to grow and evangelize or to slowly lose believers and babies to atheism and antirational spiritualism devoid of Tradition (e.g., the growth of Pentecostalism in South America). Unless we can talk totally forthrightly with both, evangelically and forthrightly, we belie a shame of being unable to come to terms with the Enlightenment.
 
. Evidence also definitively disproves (as far as we are able to do so using modern biostatistics) the possibility that the amount of genetic variability in the current human population can be explained by all of humanity descending from a single mating couple of Homo sapiens living within the last 10,000 years.
Would you be so kind as to provide the citations for the “evidence” you are referring to?

As to biostatistics, I would like the reference to the model being used for the experimental simulated populations --however, that term probably has a “2010” new name and new spin since Francisco J. Ayala used it in 1995. I do know that the original Wright-Fisher model has been adapted so regardless of individual researchers’ choices for titles, I would like descriptions of current models.

John Hawks has some interesting details for data (name removed by moderator)ut in an early paper; thus, it would be important to review current research for comparison. Rumor has it that he is interested in the comeback of the Multiregional theory. That of course will raise questions since that could change some conclusions based on the Out of Africa theory.

Plus, I am interested in new data for the MHC polymorphisms in human and comparable vertebrates. Current information on the DRB1 gene etc. lineages would also be helpful. The molecular clock appears to be up for grabs so I am looking for peer-reviewed published research. However, some of the proposed ideas may have possibilities. Finally, I would like citations for current research using GenBank.

On the other hand, could there have been a typo in your time frame of a single mating couple of Homo sapiens living within the last 10,000 years?
10,000 years does not sound practical to this granny.

Blessings,
granny

Spring is God’s message of faith in the future.
 
As the Church of Christ, we now face a tremendously important choice that, in my view, will determine whether we continue to grow and evangelize or to slowly lose believers and babies to atheism and antirational spiritualism devoid of Tradition (e.g., the growth of Pentecostalism in South America). Unless we can talk totally forthrightly with both, evangelically and forthrightly, we belie a shame of being unable to come to terms with the Enlightenment.
It is not my intention to reply to the whole of the above.

In my humble opinion, an 18th century philosophical movement is another version of Aristotle seeking knowledge about his world or Paul seeking to understand his Greek audience or my granddaughter breaking open seeds spinning down, like helicopters, from trees. From the time of Adam, the curiosity of the rational human has led to adventures galore.

The Catholic Church has existed through all ages simply because its realm is that of faith and morals – bible means basic instructions before leaving earth. The reality of Adam and Eve is key to the economy of salvation. Does this mean that every dotted i and crossed t is actual reality in the common usage sense? Of course not, because some reality like Satan, who is spirit, was rather difficult to describe before Halloween costumes were sold to eager candy-loving kids.

From my view in the trenches, Catholics are being asked to understand the importance of a real Adam and Eve and to accept it as being the truth. They now have to make the choice between reality and symbolism of some undefined truth concept.

Personally, I love the discoveries of science; but I disdain the unwarranted exaggeration of limited research based on assumptions and various estimates.

There is an unreasonable extrapolation of limited results based on the assumption that science in general is able to successfully predict backwards, without doubt, and with total accuracy, exactly what was taking place, daily, all over the earth, for periods of time ranging millions and millions of years.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is sacred.
 
If they are two sole parents of all humanity, then reason Jesus needed to give his life for us to “pay” for our sins makes sense. If they are a metaphor/allegory that means:-

-all sin could not be passed onto all people via descendancy
-if multiple Adam and Eves existed, why would the sin of one set have affected the other
-Jesus wouldn’t need to be called the “last Adam”
-God didn’t make them male and female in the beginning since the assumption is we have come from male and female apes

If Genesis stories are allegorical/metaphorical then where does the myth stop and reality start.
As St. Paul says, Adam is a “type” of humanity (read Romans)
 
As St. Paul says, Adam is a “type” of humanity (read Romans)
And I am a “type” of femininity. Read my birth certificate. Am I allegorical?

Or are you saying that I am real? But also I can be allegorical in relationship to my pioneer ancestors and future descendents? Both? Because that is one way of teaching?

Blessings,
granny

The human person is the pinnacle of God’s creation.
 
Originally Posted by diggerdomer
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
As St. Paul says, Adam is a “type” of humanity (read Romans)
And I am a “type” of femininity. Read my birth certificate. Am I allegorical?

Or are you saying that I am real? But also I can be allegorical in relationship to my pioneer ancestors and future descendents? Both? Because that is one way of teaching?

Blessings,
granny

The human person is the pinnacle of God’s creation.
Hi Diggerdomer,
Post 869. God is the sole “parent” of the human race. Adam and Eve, in Genesis, may be literal two sole “parents” or may be metaphors/allegories. Or both.
I just reread your post 869 above which seems to allow too much freedom regarding the reality of Adam and Eve.

Catholic teaching is that Adam and Eve are real, breathing people. There is no “either / or” about them. Just as there is no “either / or” about my being real.
The metaphor or allegorical part is an addition to reality. It does not replace reality.

“Parents” as a term for Adam and Eve means that they are the biological, first true, fully complete human beings. As such, they transmit their human nature through parental procreation to their children. Because they are the sole parents, all of humanity is descended from them. Does that make sense?

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred.
 
Would you be so kind as to provide the citations for the “evidence” you are referring to?
I can’t provide a specific paper in which the hypothesis of an “Adam and Eve” (e.g., a single mating couple of Homo sapiens), living within the last 10,000 years (which would be within the range traditionally estimated by pre-19th century theologians, and is supported by today’s “young earth” creationist movement, whose genetic variability (using the number of genes in the human genome and the variation in those genes observed today) and 10,000 years of them and their descendants reproducing is sufficent to describe the variability of the current human population.

Jimmy Akin describes this on his blog in a post fro 2006.

There is a lot of evidence about how the genetic variability in the human population points to polygenic ancestry. Here are some examples:
genographic.nationalgeographic.com/
cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297%2808%2900255-3
I would also recommend searching “scholar.google.com” using combinations of the following terms: “human, haplotype, haplogroup, migration, variability, genetic, genomic, bioinformatics, historical.”
 
I can’t provide a specific paper in which the hypothesis of an “Adam and Eve” (e.g., a single mating couple of Homo sapiens), living within the last 10,000 years (which would be within the range traditionally estimated by pre-19th century theologians, and is supported by today’s “young earth” creationist movement, whose genetic variability (using the number of genes in the human genome and the variation in those genes observed today) and 10,000 years of them and their descendants reproducing is sufficent to describe the variability of the current human population.
Thank you. You have given me the elements which go into the research.
Jimmy Akin describes this on his blog in a post from 2006.
I have only read one Jimmy Akin blog about our ancestry and something did not seem right. However, that is a personal opinion which I can’t back up.
There is a lot of evidence about how the genetic variability in the human population points to polygenic ancestry. Here are some examples:
genographic.nationalgeographic.com/
cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297%2808%2900255-3
The second citation is most valuable for my purposes. It is printed out. My computer screen objects to my yellow and orange highlighters. Thank you sincerely.

For me, it is the “Material and Methods” section which is important. For example, how many samples are studied and from what location? Are they appropriate for the researchers’ goals? What exactly do they represent? and so on.

What I find interesting is that there are approximately 20,000 to 25,000 genes in human DNA. There are also 3 billion chemical base pairs. (www.genomics.energy.gov click Human Genome Project Information at the very top, left.)
I would also recommend searching “scholar.google.com” using combinations of the following terms: “human, haplotype, haplogroup, migration, variability, genetic, genomic, bioinformatics, historical.”
I have started this type of research via a couple of websites. Your suggestions are important because they provide additional balance. I am at the point where I need to take the research off CAF so I don’t accidentally violate any bans.

Blessings,
granny

Catholic teaching **regarding the real Adam **is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put paragraph numbers and topics such as Adam, etc. in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
If they are two sole parents of all humanity, then reason Jesus needed to give his life for us to “pay” for our sins makes sense. If they are a metaphor/allegory that means:-

-all sin could not be passed onto all people via descendancy
-if multiple Adam and Eves existed, why would the sin of one set have affected the other
-Jesus wouldn’t need to be called the “last Adam”
-God didn’t make them male and female in the beginning since the assumption is we have come from male and female apes

If Genesis stories are allegorical/metaphorical then where does the myth stop and reality start.
Your conclusions are reasonable but not necessary.

Sin is part of the human condition, regardless of the “how” it was passed on. It’s certainly not merely due to biological processes.

Jesus can be called the “last Adam” whether Adam is one indiividual person or a metaphor for human origins. Simply calling Jesus “last Adam” is itself a metaphor, not a biological statement.

I completely don’t understand your comment about apes and don’t see how it relates.
 
fnr;6687227Allegorically said:
predisposition to sin, and our neuropsychological makeup leads us to pride and arrogance. However, until such time as I read a paper indicating that current observations of human population genetics can be explained by a literal reading of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis (not the other story, where man and woman are created together), I find it impossible to accept “interngenerational propagation of concupiscence” without some theoretical explanation by scientific evidence. In fact, I would be bearing false witness if I did. In this regard, honesty places a check on my obedient acceptance of doctrine.

I have a problem when the Galileo, Copernicus , science/church debacle of the past thing is compared with the Adam and Eve doctrine and current genome research. The theories surrounding the arrangement of the cosmos, the interdependence of time and space, the symbiotic relationship of organic life on earth, are all structures external to man, as the word ‘man’ is meant in Sacred Scriptures. They are of the world. The structure of the human family OTOH, is a structure internal to man. Not of the world, but of ‘Man’ himself. A structure of an entirely different order than the structure of the cosmos or matter. One doesn’t need to abandon the faith to depend on current models to conduct science, even if those models seem to be opposed to it. They are time tested and proven, even so, that doesn’t mean they are models able to provide the substance for science and faith to be reconciled. As solid as they seem history proves again and again how nature points out the folly of men. Godzilla! Sorry, couldn’t help it.:-/
As the Church of Christ, we now face a tremendously important choice that, in my view, will determine whether we continue to grow and evangelize or to slowly lose believers and babies to atheism and antirational spiritualism devoid of Tradition (e.g., the growth of Pentecostalism in South America). Unless we can talk totally forthrightly with both, evangelically and forthrightly, we belie a shame of being unable to come to terms with the Enlightenment.
I don’t think we have to make a choice. Not as long as our science is of the highest standards. Correct me if I’m wrong but, what the results mean changes as discoveries are made and new theories are formed.
 
Thank you. You have given me the elements which go into the research.

I have only read one Jimmy Akin blog about our ancestry and something did not seem right. However, that is a personal opinion which I can’t back up.

The second citation is most valuable for my purposes. It is printed out. My computer screen objects to my yellow and orange highlighters. Thank you sincerely.

For me, it is the “Material and Methods” section which is important. For example, how many samples are studied and from what location? Are they appropriate for the researchers’ goals? What exactly do they represent? and so on.

What I find interesting is that there are approximately 20,000 to 25,000 genes in human DNA. There are also 3 billion chemical base pairs. (www.genomics.energy.gov click Human Genome Project Information at the very top, left.)

I have started this type of research via a couple of websites. Your suggestions are important because they provide additional balance. I am at the point where I need to take the research off CAF so I don’t accidentally violate any bans.

Blessings,
granny

Catholic teaching **regarding the real Adam **is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put paragraph numbers and topics such as Adam, etc. in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Yup - only 25,000. This was completely unexpected. The question began to be asked - what else is going on here?
 
Myth is reality, stated in poetic and symbolic and allegorical form.
Can you tell me me where YOU believe the allegory/symbolism/metaphor stop and history begin, is it at:-

Cain and Abel

Methuselah

Noah

Abraham

Melchizedek

Moses

David

Jesus

St Paul

St Stephen

Where do you believe the line is drawn.
 
Yup - only 25,000. This was completely unexpected. The question began to be asked - what else is going on here?
I think there’s one fossil upon which theists and atheists can both agree as totally wondrous.

The oldest fossil found so far is of a type of colony of blue-green bacteria, called Stromatolites, from a rock included in other rock, dating to approximately 3.5 billion years ago. Here are some references for that fossil:

ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanofr.html
smh.com.au/news/science/earlier-start-to-life-on-earth/2008/05/29/1211654221563.html?sssdmh=dm16.317233

The first solid rocks (e.g., having cooled after the “Hadean” period of meteor and comet’s storms upon the Earth) were about 3.8 billion years ago.

If 3.5 billion years ago, a life form existed, with relatively complex physiology that includes respiration and photosynthesis and colonial patterns of life, and was found in a rock that was an inclusion in another (younger) rock, it suggests that life appeared on Earth as soon as soon as it was able to.

Whoa! If that’s true, it could say that God did imbue the universe with properties that led to the appearance of life on earth as soon as it was physically possible. That to me suggest that the Logos, described in the first chapter of the Gospel of John, represents the elementary physics basis that lets our universe work. Physicists still can’t describe the interrelation of fundamental forces of the universe (e.g., the strength of the weak force, the strength of gravity). The strengths of these forces look like random numbers, but they happen to make our universe possible in a manner that supports life. Could the Logos be that which gave our universe life?
 
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