Many Adams and Eves?

[ricmat]

Those two are not mutually exclusive any more than love of a wife for her husband is exclusive of the neurochemical states that accompany that love.

Loving God, or one’s spouse is an act of the will.

Loving God, or one’s spouse, does not rely on chemical reactions that make us feel good about it.

We don’t love God or our spouse because the chemicals in our brains told us to do it.

 

[PeterK]

Thanks, PeterK – I’m embarrassed to say I haven’t seen The Matrix. But with one son graduated this past weekend, we may have some leisure time to watch it. I’m proud to say Michael’s elementary school prepared him well for the National Catholic High School Entrance exam – he scored in the 99.9 percentile, and he gave one of the four valedictorian addresses.

StAnastasia

Don’t be embarrassed. The movie is really contrived and the last installment was a bomb. I believe it’s rated R for stylized violence and some language. The computer graphics were ground breaking when it first arrived and that was the draw for me.
**Wow! 99.9 percentile! That’s fantastic! **You should indeed be proud. Congratulations!!! I’m sure this was just one of many such addresses he’ll soon deliver. It goes by fast does it not?
That is great news. Thanks for sharing.

Pete

 

[grannymh]

This post strictly concerns Divine Revelation as contained in the Catholic Deposit of Faith.

While I do not intend to violate any CAF ban and have withdrawn from this thread,

I do feel that the obligation to defend the Catholic Church involves more than certain limitations. There are valid Catholic philosophical questions implied in the following.

Ed,

The ontological leap to humankind is central to faith, I totally agree. As I’ve written in posts to Granny, science cannot address faith. .

Since there are many faiths which do not address human nature in the same way as Catholicism –

Which faith is being referred to?

What is the referred faith’s basic philosophy regarding human nature?

Does the referred faith hold as doctrine that there are two sole parents of humanity, aka Adam & Eve?

In other words, does the referred faith subscribe to Divine Revelation as contained in the Catholic Deposit of Faith?
As presented in the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition?

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55

 

[redneck22]

To me, the ontological wonder of God’s creation of the universe is entirely agreement with everything I know about the disciplines of …comparative religion… …and Catholic theology!

What are you trying to say about comparative religions and Catholic theology?

 

[StAnastasia]

Don’t be embarrassed. The movie is really contrived and the last installment was a bomb. I believe it’s rated R for stylized violence and some language. The computer graphics were ground breaking when it first arrived and that was the draw for me.
**Wow! 99.9 percentile! That’s fantastic! **You should indeed be proud. Congratulations!!! I’m sure this was just one of many such addresses he’ll soon deliver. It goes by fast does it not? That is great news. Thanks for sharing. Pete

Thanks, Pete! Regrettably, despite his exam success, we are not in a position to send Michael to any of our local Catholic High School’s because they cost a minimum of $15,000 per year. With two sons, that works out to $120,000 for high school (not counting on inflation), after we have spent $120,000 on nine years of elementary school for them. So he will go to the local public, high school, and we will work on his philosophical and theological development ourselves. Catholic High Schools seem to be becoming country clubs for the well heeled, with little that distinguishes them religiously from other private schools.

Does the matrix engage philosophical questions in any depth? It is it fairly fluffy on big questions? I’m not saying I won’t spend time on it if it doesn’t - I’m just curious.

StAnastasia

 

[StrawberryJam]

Thanks, Pete! Regrettably, despite his exam success, we are not in a position to send Michael to any of our local Catholic High School’s because they cost a minimum of $15,000 per year. With two sons, that works out to $120,000 for high school (not counting on inflation), after we have spent $120,000 on nine years of elementary school for them. So he will go to the local public, high school, and we will work on his philosophical and theological development ourselves. Catholic High Schools seem to be becoming country clubs for the well heeled, with little that distinguishes them religiously from other private schools.

Does the matrix engage philosophical questions in any depth? It is it fairly fluffy on big questions? I’m not saying I won’t spend time on it if it doesn’t - I’m just curious.

StAnastasia

That does not even bring into account all the “FUN” draising you get during the entire school year from what I see here.

 

[grannymh]

In partial answer to the OP.

There is more than one Catholic doctrine connected to the living reality of two sole parents of the human species, aka Adam and Eve. For example, there is the doctrine of the Incarnation which has been under attack as long as I can remember.

The sneak attack on human nature itself (first seen in Adam) and by extension the Creator of human nature is more recent due to the current media hype over some recent speculations about activities in what would be considered pre-history.

Since it is presumed that readers are interested in the Catholic position, the following is most informative.

Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Entering topics, such as Adam, is also very useful.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[PeterK]

StA,

Your ‘inbox’ is full so I’ll post this here.

“Does the matrix engage philosophical questions in any depth? It is it fairly fluffy on big questions? I’m not saying I won’t spend time on it if it doesn’t - I’m just curious.”

I would have to say very fluffy. In fact despite the fact that the heroine’s name is Trinity, no ‘God’ is ever alluded to. In the first installment of three movies, existence is explained as a big computer program and characters jump in and out of the ‘program’ in an attempt to solve problems and obtain certain answers (?). In the program is where all the action and retina=popping special effects occur. The character Neo definitely represent ‘good’ while maintaining as much antihero cool as possible. So this interesting allegory for the spiritual/temporal is kinda-sorta approached with the computer alternate “code-reality” idea. But once that’s established it’s just a plot device to get to where all the neat computer graphic stuff occurs. One of which reminded me of you. My second favorite scene follows your scene and involves the best car chase scene to date on film - imho. I would come home after a crazy commute and watch that scene to ‘unwind’ and realize my drive could have been much worse.

To make it quick and easy here is a Youtube link that contains a little snippet of the bullet stopping scene. So now you don’t have to rent the whole movie.

{be sure and copy the whole address from ‘http’ to ‘related’}

youtube.com/watch?v=guVAeFs5XwE&feature=related

I don’t recall much of the first film, but the second film had a couple gratuitous sexual references/encounters that I am not comfortable recommending for family viewing. They’re just a little over the top.

It’s tough to justify paying that much for high school tuition. You’re essentially buying some religious education and hopefully a little more discipline as public schools are on par in the core courses and have excellent curriculums for gifted students. It may be best that in the formative years of High School your children are receiving their instruction in the faith from their parents. Nothing beats home cooking - right?

Enjoy.

Pete

 

[diggerdomer]

In partial answer to the OP.

There is more than one Catholic doctrine connected to the living reality of two sole parents of the human species, aka Adam and Eve. For example, there is the doctrine of the Incarnation which has been under attack as long as I can remember.

The sneak attack on human nature itself (first seen in Adam) and by extension the Creator of human nature is more recent due to the current media hype over some recent speculations about activities in what would be considered pre-history.

Since it is presumed that readers are interested in the Catholic position, the following is most informative.

Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Entering topics, such as Adam, is also very useful.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

What does the doctrine (dogma, actually) of the Incarnation have to do with the idea that Catholic have to believe there were two sole parents?

 

[grannymh]

What does the doctrine (dogma, actually) of the Incarnation have to do with the idea that Catholic have to believe there were two sole parents?

Excellent question.

Article 3 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
asks a similar question – Why Did the Word Become Flesh?

The Catechism’s Glossary defines Incarnation as the fact that the Son of God assumed human nature and and became man in order to accomplish our salvation in that same human nature.

Same is the operative word. Are some of us descended from other pre-history hominids? Are some human natures or all human natures considered as being in the image of God? See link below.

In order to understand human nature and why salvation is needed, one needs to go back to the origin of human nature.

Since this thread will be closing, my suggestion is for you or someone else to start a new thread regarding the “WHY” of the Incarnation. Please let me know where that new thread is and I will respond with the Incarnation’s connection to the two sole parents of humanity.

Blessings,
granny

Human nature is unique in all the universe.

Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Entering topics, such as Adam, is also very useful.

 

[ricmat]

Here’s an interesting article that touches on this thread (and others)!

Intellectual Poison: How Thomas Hobbes Ruined Biblical Scholarship.

 

[diggerdomer]

Excellent question.

Article 3 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
asks a similar question – Why Did the Word Become Flesh?

The Catechism’s Glossary defines Incarnation as the fact that the Son of God assumed human nature and and became man in order to accomplish our salvation in that same human nature.

Same is the operative word. Are some of us descended from other pre-history hominids? Are some human natures or all human natures considered as being in the image of God? See link below.

In order to understand human nature and why salvation is needed, one needs to go back to the origin of human nature.

Since this thread will be closing, my suggestion is for you or someone else to start a new thread regarding the “WHY” of the Incarnation. Please let me know where that new thread is and I will respond with the Incarnation’s connection to the two sole parents of humanity.

Blessings,
granny

Human nature is unique in all the universe.

Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Entering topics, such as Adam, is also very useful.

So you agree, the fact of a common human nature is independent of whether Adam and Eve were singular individuals, metaphors, or both?

 

[grannymh]

So you agree, the fact of a common human nature is independent of whether Adam and Eve were singular individuals, metaphors, or both?

I do not agree that the fact of a common human nature is independent of whether Adam and Eve were singular individuals, metaphors, or both. Common sense says that you and I who possess the same human nature are real and not metaphors.

I flat out refuse to be a metaphor.

The fact of a common nature is only true because there are two, real (this does not mean metaphors or both) sole parents of the human species who are honest-to-goodness, fully complete human beings whose nature is an unique unification of spirit/matter, rational/corporeal, body and soul.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[diggerdomer]

I do not agree that the fact of a common human nature is independent of whether Adam and Eve were singular individuals, metaphors, or both. Common sense says that you and I who possess the same human nature are real and not metaphors.

I flat out refuse to be a metaphor.

The fact of a common nature is only true because there are two, real (this does not mean metaphors or both) sole parents of the human species who are honest-to-goodness, fully complete human beings whose nature is an unique unification of spirit/matter, rational/corporeal, body and soul.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

I think the fact that we have a common human nature is because that’s how God created us. For me it doesn’t depend on how one interprets other parts of Genesis.

 

[grannymh]

Scientific evidence supports the conclusion that all humans did not descend from just one pair of humans, but a small group of humans with the population at lowest being 1000. Offiial Church teaching contradicts this, and says that the faithful must accept that we are descended from a literal Adam and Eve. Is this a contradiction between faith and reason?

To answer your question “Is this a contradiction between faith and reason?”

Having read many threads regarding faith and reason, in my humble opinion, the “contradiction” is actually a type of straw man intended to lead Catholics away from the real issue of truth. The unfounded sound bite “scientific evidence supports” is hype intended to overwhelm Catholics who do not have access to actual research.
Catholics are being blindsided.

In my humble opinion, it is time to listen to the common sense of St. Thomas Aquinas which appeared in a This Rock magazine article, “Aquinas vs. Intelligent Design” by Michael W. Tkacz, November 2008. The bolding is mine.Please note that the quotes are taken out of context in order to demonstrate my point. It is recommended that one reads the entire article in order to understand Tkacz’s position. Link: www.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0811fea4.asp

“Into this medieval debate comes Aquinas, who reasoned thus: God is the
author of all truth; the aim of scientific research is the truth; therefore, there
can be no fundamental incompatibility between the two. **Provided we understand **
Christian doctrine properly and do our science well, we will find the truth.”

and

"In the Thomistic view, the teachings of the faith are fully compatible with what

we learn of nature through scientific research, **provided we both understand **
those divine teachings correctly and we do our scientific research consistently and rigorously."

What impressed me was that in a sense, Aquinas was facing the same type of dilemma regarding scientific research and doctrine that Catholics face today.
The “contradiction” so often expressed on threads should be seen for the distraction it really is.

It is time for Catholics to stand up for their beliefs and ask the same questions that St. Thomas was referring to-- 1. Do we really understand the full meaning of Catholic teaching. 2. How is scientific research being conducted?

Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Entering topics, such as Adam, is also very useful.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[StrawberryJam]

To answer your question “Is this a contradiction between faith and reason?”

Having read many threads regarding faith and reason, in my humble opinion, the “contradiction” is actually a type of straw man intended to lead Catholics away from the real issue of truth. The unfounded sound bite “scientific evidence supports” is hype intended to overwhelm Catholics who do not have access to actual research.
Catholics are being blindsided.

In my humble opinion, it is time to listen to the common sense of St. Thomas Aquinas which appeared in a This Rock magazine article, “Aquinas vs. Intelligent Design” by Michael W. Tkacz, November 2008. The bolding is mine.Please note that the quotes are taken out of context in order to demonstrate my point. It is recommended that one reads the entire article in order to understand Tkacz’s position. Link: www.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0811fea4.asp

and

What impressed me was that in a sense, Aquinas was facing the same type of dilemma regarding scientific research and doctrine that Catholics face today.
The “contradiction” so often expressed on threads should be seen for the distraction it really is.

It is time for Catholics to stand up for their beliefs and ask the same questions that St. Thomas was referring to-- 1. Do we really understand the full meaning of Catholic teaching. 2. How is scientific research being conducted?

Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Entering topics, such as Adam, is also very useful.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

What scientific research is being questioned?
Science is not held back by dogma.
Granny, could you explain how this theological position was arrived at?

 

[StrawberryJam]

I do not agree that the fact of a common human nature is independent of whether Adam and Eve were singular individuals, metaphors, or both. Common sense says that you and I who possess the same human nature are real and not metaphors.

I flat out refuse to be a metaphor.

The fact of a common nature is only true because there are two, real (this does not mean metaphors or both) sole parents of the human species who are honest-to-goodness, fully complete human beings whose nature is an unique unification of spirit/matter, rational/corporeal, body and soul.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

Dear Granny,

No one is asking you to be a metaphor.
I don’t see either side asking that of you.
A common nature is only true if there are 2 real sole parents of the human species?
How so?

 

[grannymh]

What scientific research is being questioned?

It is the scientists themselves who ask questions because they are seeking the truth. Scientists have always had questions about nature and the universe. They look for true answers. Why do things fall down? How close are stars? How do bats fly at night? Is ice cream a health food ? It is the scientists who are doing the questioning.

On the other hand, it is perfectly lawful to ask how science research is being conducted. It is called peer review.

Science is not held back by dogma.

True.

Granny, could you explain how this theological position was arrived at?

The quotes in post 1044 represent the thoughts of Thomas Aquinas who was born in 1227 and died in 1274. He was an outstanding Catholic thinker and philosopher. His theological position was that God existed and that God is the author or source of all truth. How he arrived at that conclusion is contained in his writings. As a Catholic, I believe in God and that He is the ultimate source of truth but I am not a philosopher so I cannot explain the nitty-gritty of Aquinas’s thinking. Sorry about that.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16-17

 

[grannymh]

Dear Granny,

No one is asking you to be a metaphor.
I don’t see either side asking that of you.
A common nature is only true if there are 2 real sole parents of the human species?
How so?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, explains a common nature this way.

paragraph 360. Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity, for “from one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth”:

O wondrous vision, which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God. . . in the unity of its nature, composed equally in all men of a material body and a spiritual soul; in the unity of its immediate end and its mission in the world; in the unity of its dwelling, the earth, whose benefits all men, by right of nature, may use to sustain and develop life; in the unity of its supernatural end: God himself, to whom all ought to tend; in the unity of the means for attaining this end;. . . in the unity of the redemption wrought by Christ for all.

paragraph 361. “This law of human solidarity and charity”, without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and peoples, assures us that all men are truly brethren.

Unfortunately, the current ban on evolution discussions prevents me from discussing and defending the realty of human nature and its two sole parents from a natural science point of view.

It is my intention to abide by the ban.

Regarding metaphors. There have many discussions with people who want to make Adam a metaphor, a symbol, a figure of speech – anything and everything but real.
If Adam is real, then Catholic teaching about human nature has to be real.
If Adam is a metaphor, like some people wish, where did we get our human nature?

So I wink at those who want Adam and human nature to be a metaphor or a symbol.
Does human nature come from something unreal like a metaphor? I am real and so my reality flat out opposes a metaphoric Adam. I may not be allowed to defend Adam properly, but I can certainly defend my soul and body. I, like Adam, am real and not a metaphor or symbol.

Blessings,
granny

Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Entering topics is also very useful.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Dear Granny,

On what basis does the CCC use for findings?