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Anonymous_1
Guest
What are your thoughts? Im especially interested in discussing this with those who propose that there are many paths to salvation or to God or to Truth.
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hurst
Guest
There are many paths in the sense that God leads us to Himself according to where He finds us. We are not all in the same place.
But there is only one path in the sense that all of us are directed to the same goal, and by the same means: Charity.
Here is a relevant quote:
And so I draw them by these, and by many other ways, for the eye cannot see, nor the tongue relate, nor the heart think, how many are the roads and ways which I use, through love alone, to lead them back to grace, so that My truth may be fulfilled in them.
The Diaologue of St. Catherine of Siena, p. 17
catholicprimer.org/catherine/catherine_dialog.pdf
hurst
But there is only one path in the sense that all of us are directed to the same goal, and by the same means: Charity.
Here is a relevant quote:
And so I draw them by these, and by many other ways, for the eye cannot see, nor the tongue relate, nor the heart think, how many are the roads and ways which I use, through love alone, to lead them back to grace, so that My truth may be fulfilled in them.
The Diaologue of St. Catherine of Siena, p. 17
catholicprimer.org/catherine/catherine_dialog.pdf
hurst
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Anonymous_1
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not what I meant…but thansk for your reply
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Ahimsa
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I agree.
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Anonymous_1
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what is love without truth?
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Ahimsa
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Are you saying love can exist without truth?
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hurst
Guest
Love is the Truth. Love - as in charity, divine charity.
In today’s world, love can be confused between two opposites: selfish love and selfless love. One takes, the other gives. They are as opposite as can be. That is why scripture says that love of the world is hatred of God (1 Jn 2:15), yet God loved the world and gave His only Son (Jn 3:16). True love is charity, meaning to give. Worldly love is selfish, meaning to get. Worldly love only wants things that are pleasant to itself. Divine love gives even more to that which is lacking. We can only give charity if we ourselves are filled. That is why Jesus said we must abide in Him to have life (Jn 15:4). That is also why Jesus said to love others as He loved us (Jn 13:34). We receive from God, and give to the others. That is the Way, the Life, and the Truth (Jn 14:6).
hurst
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Anonymous_1
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sigh
you are totally missing the point
i know there are atheists out there who are good citizens, loving to their family and friends…yet they heartily reject the truth…
there are many people who suggest that all religions are equal. this is what I hope to contend. Not that Love of God and neighbor is ultimatley what we were created for.
I propose that people can love without recieving or living in the fullness of truth.
I believe, for example that there are Hindus that are loving, but I do not believe that Hinduism is the fullness of truth, do you see waht I am trying to say?
you are totally missing the point
i know there are atheists out there who are good citizens, loving to their family and friends…yet they heartily reject the truth…
there are many people who suggest that all religions are equal. this is what I hope to contend. Not that Love of God and neighbor is ultimatley what we were created for.
I propose that people can love without recieving or living in the fullness of truth.
I believe, for example that there are Hindus that are loving, but I do not believe that Hinduism is the fullness of truth, do you see waht I am trying to say?
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hurst
Guest
However, the fact is, people can not love supernaturally without supernatural grace. This grace only comes to us through Christ and His Church. Pagans can receive grace by the prayers of the Church. Those who do not reject this grace can benefit from it. But it should not be seen as though the Church were not needed.
Besides, the Church teaches that people can perform good actions on a natural level without faith or saving grace (Ott, p.234). Even Jesus pointed this out:
Luke 6:32 And if you love them that love you, what thanks are to you? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if you do good to them who do good to you, what thanks are to you? for sinners also do this. 34 And if you lend to them of whom you hope to receive, what thanks are to you? for sinners also lend to sinners, for to receive as much. 35 But love ye your enemies: do good, and lend, hoping for nothing thereby: and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest; for he is kind to the unthankful, and to the evil.
Hindus do not naturally love in a Christian way, though. There is no supernatural reward for mere natural love, as Jesus says in Luke 6. They receive their “reward” in this life. The Pharisees were the same, and their reward for showing off their religious works was the approval of people. Jesus said that our justice must be greater than the Pharisees if we wish to enter heaven.
Matthew 5:20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
We must become children of God in this life in order to be welcomed into heaven in the next life. So we must believe, we must give ourselves, we must love, we must imitate God who shines on both the good and evil people. Yet, God will judge those who do not bear good fruit after receiving of His goodness.
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rwoehmke
Guest
Dominus Iesus(sp?) said that one can be saved only through the merits of Jesus Christ and through the Catholic Church. Hindus, Jews, Athiests etc. can be saved if they desire and strive to live a life that they believe would be in keeping with God’s will for human behavior. That such a desire makes the merits of Jesus Christ which flow through the Catholic Church available to them for their salvation. Thus it would appear that there is only one path to God and that is through Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church. There apparently is more than particular life style in which can be granted the grace of this salvation so it might appear that there is more than one path, but that is an illusion. To say that all life styles are equally efficacious is incorrect; some being more certain than others.
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Anonymous_1
Guest
sigh again…
However, I am not denying this, I was simply hoping to discuss the ideas of moral and religious relativism. So all of these other posts while very good seem to be off topic…
from what i understand, and I am probaly wrong, but dosen’t this apply to those who through no fault of their own do not have sufficient knowledge of the Church or of the saving work of Christ? I love this teaching of the Church.
However, I am not denying this, I was simply hoping to discuss the ideas of moral and religious relativism. So all of these other posts while very good seem to be off topic…
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Flopfoot
Guest
Ah, I get it. This is sort of the ‘are all religions are as good as each other’ question, or, if not as good as each other, can you still get to the same end by different religions? Well, that was what someone already answered - people who aren’t Catholics can still get to heaven. However, I believe that there is one ideal path that God calls us all to take, the path of the Catholic Church. Even though we may have different lives within the Church (some are priests, others are parents, people have different jobs, live in different countries etc.) - the things we believe and the ‘way’ we try to get to heaven is basically the same. Ideally all Catholics should agree on all issues of faith and morals (because they all believe what the Church teaches). There is only 1 way to this fullness of truth, if you’re not Catholic then there must be at least part of the truth that you either don’t understand, or else choose to not live by. To get 100% truth you need to be Catholic and know and believe and follow all the teachings of the Church in faith and morals.
So, since I believe that, then I also believe that for other religion’s paths, we can evaluate them by how similar they are to the Catholic path. Things that other religions teach are either true or not true. If Baptists teach something that’s not true on a certain issue and Muslims also teach something that’s not true on that issue, then it doesn’t really matter whether the Muslims are teaching the same thing or a different thing to the Baptists on that issue.
Meh I don’t really know exactly where I’m going with all that, just some of my thoughts. Is that the kind of post you wanted, anyway?
So, since I believe that, then I also believe that for other religion’s paths, we can evaluate them by how similar they are to the Catholic path. Things that other religions teach are either true or not true. If Baptists teach something that’s not true on a certain issue and Muslims also teach something that’s not true on that issue, then it doesn’t really matter whether the Muslims are teaching the same thing or a different thing to the Baptists on that issue.
Meh I don’t really know exactly where I’m going with all that, just some of my thoughts. Is that the kind of post you wanted, anyway?
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bigdawg
Guest
Doesn’t it say they “may” be saved? I’ll have to go back and check the wording myself, but to me, there is a world of difference between “may” and “can” in this situation.
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thistle
Guest
The Catholic Church teaches that those who learn of Christ’s Gospel and reject it are rejecting eternal life (not saved). However there are many people who are unbaptised through no fault of their own and the Church teaches that they can be saved. This understanding came very early because some catechumens were martyred before they could be baptised. The Church believes that those who shed their blood for Christ are joined to him by “baptism of blood”. Others desire baptism but die before they can receive it. These people have an explicit “baptism of desire.” Others sincerely try to do what is right but have no opportunity to learn about Christ. They are said to have an implicit “baptism of desire” and the Church teaches they can be saved.
This teaching has a basis in scripture. The parable of the Last Judgement in Matthew 25 implies that some will be saved because they ministered to Christ in the poor and hungry, even though they were unaware of his presence in them.
This teaching has a basis in scripture. The parable of the Last Judgement in Matthew 25 implies that some will be saved because they ministered to Christ in the poor and hungry, even though they were unaware of his presence in them.
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PraRFLEsEkHm
Guest
Peace
While there are many paths to God, there is only ONE path to Salvation…that is Christ. While there are people who may, or can, be saved outside of the Church - these are people who have never had, nor will ever have - access to the Church and in fact probably have no clue that there is such a thing. These God deals with individually within the religion He has presented to them, or is available to them, through the Holy Spirit who leads them TO God within that framework. We all must follow the leading of the Holy Spirit - even if we are ignorant of the fact that that Is Who we are following.
For those who DO have access to the Church, basically the same rules apply - following the leading of the Holy Spirit OUT of the half-truth they find themselves in, and into the fullness of Truth as we know it - because, in the end - that is what we ALL must do: Follow the leading of the Holy Spirit to find Gods will for us in our own life.
All of this (For us) while keeping in mind that God works through People - and there are many within the protestant churches whose job it is (it seems to me to be) to lead people OUT of that particular church, or religious organization, in which they find themselves…quietly. Some are in leadership positions, while many others are simply ‘Parishoners’…lay people - quietly attesting to the one True Faith in the Lions Den.
It seems to me, as was pointed out in the earlier confusion, that the true test is Charity - by their fruits you will know them.
Peace
John
While there are many paths to God, there is only ONE path to Salvation…that is Christ. While there are people who may, or can, be saved outside of the Church - these are people who have never had, nor will ever have - access to the Church and in fact probably have no clue that there is such a thing. These God deals with individually within the religion He has presented to them, or is available to them, through the Holy Spirit who leads them TO God within that framework. We all must follow the leading of the Holy Spirit - even if we are ignorant of the fact that that Is Who we are following.
For those who DO have access to the Church, basically the same rules apply - following the leading of the Holy Spirit OUT of the half-truth they find themselves in, and into the fullness of Truth as we know it - because, in the end - that is what we ALL must do: Follow the leading of the Holy Spirit to find Gods will for us in our own life.
All of this (For us) while keeping in mind that God works through People - and there are many within the protestant churches whose job it is (it seems to me to be) to lead people OUT of that particular church, or religious organization, in which they find themselves…quietly. Some are in leadership positions, while many others are simply ‘Parishoners’…lay people - quietly attesting to the one True Faith in the Lions Den.
It seems to me, as was pointed out in the earlier confusion, that the true test is Charity - by their fruits you will know them.
Peace
John
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undeserving
Guest
I am a catholic, I love the church and all it stands for. I believe it teaches the truth. But where I live, I am aware of holy and good men and women who are not catholics or even christian. They live lives of great beauty, strive to unite themselves with the God who they have been taught about… These men know about christianity but have never tried to examine it. They are content to live within the boundaries of the religion they have been born into.I cannot imagine our God condemning them in any way.
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ReformedCatholic
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And I agree with you. Sounds to me like they’re “living” the Gospel without even knowing it.
“Preach the Gospel. Use words if necessary.” - St. Francis
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hurst
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And they would not be able to do so if it were not for the prayers of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that offers prayers for the conversion and salvation of such people, and through which they may receive grace to desire the Truth.
It is a big mistake to think that the existence of good people outside the visible body of the Church is an indication that the Church is not necessary for salvation.
hurst
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undeserving
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Hurst,
I never meant to imply anything like what you wrote. I feel great sadness when i see people like this, for for all their striving their path is not clear, their journey is fraught with obstacles. Their temples are empty of the presence of God. I only admire them for the fact that they feel the great hunger that we catholics (should) also feel in our desire to be closer to Christ, thats all.
I never meant to imply anything like what you wrote. I feel great sadness when i see people like this, for for all their striving their path is not clear, their journey is fraught with obstacles. Their temples are empty of the presence of God. I only admire them for the fact that they feel the great hunger that we catholics (should) also feel in our desire to be closer to Christ, thats all.
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hurst
Guest
Ok, thanks for clarifying.
hurst
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