'Many powerful people don't want peace,' Pope tells children

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Weapon industry moves the bulk of the money all around the world.
Quite a silly thing, nobody can bring his money in Sheol.
 
It is a difficult reality to talk about. While all countries have legitimate reasons to defend themselves, there are arms deals between various countries, there is a black market for arms and there are dictatorships that use their men and equipment to control their people as well as to maintain power. New weapons and equipment are made and offered for sale. From multi-ton tanks and other vehicles to artillery and infantry equipment and transport vehicles. From an old movie: “There’s no money in peace.”

God bless Pope Francis.

Ed
 
It’s not quite true that there is no money in peace. In fact, there is quite a bit of money in peace. The difference is that the benefits of peace are usually spread around in a fair and equal manner offering opportunity for all, whereas the benefits of war are usually gained by only a few who do not directly participate in the suffering of war.
 
Look, we can all agree that this is great drama. Wonderful fodder for entertaining movies.

But can someone point to a real world example? I’ve studied a bit of history and I can’t recall a single war the cause of which was weapons industrialists. War long preceded the selling of arms.

This storyline is worse than naive. It is unjust.

Defense contractors are being offered as scapegoats for the sins of others, primarily politicians. And who do we see driving in the nails?

Sad.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Look, we can all agree that this is great drama. Wonderful fodder for entertaining movies.

But can someone point to a real world example? I’ve studied a bit of history and I can’t recall a single war the cause of which was weapons industrialists. War long preceded the selling of arms.

This storyline is worse than naive. It is unjust.

Defense contractors are being offered as scapegoats for the sins of others, primarily politicians. And who do we see driving in the nails?

Sad.
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Weapons industrialists don’t have to be the immediate cause of a war to benefit from it in immoral ways. Neither do they have to be the cause of a war to take advantage of it or prolong it by selling their weapons. I don’t know if war preceded the selling of arms, but I would be willing to bet top dollar that the selling of arms began very shortly after the first conflict. Eisenhower warned us of the military industrial complex and, guess what? He was right.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Look, we can all agree that this is great drama. Wonderful fodder for entertaining movies.

But can someone point to a real world example? I’ve studied a bit of history and I can’t recall a single war the cause of which was weapons industrialists. War long preceded the selling of arms.

This storyline is worse than naive. It is unjust.

Defense contractors are being offered as scapegoats for the sins of others, primarily politicians. And who do we see driving in the nails?

Sad.
Click to expand...
Really? Have you been out of touch with the news for the last 10 years.
 
Tsuwano said:
Weapons industrialists don’t have to be the immediate cause of a war to benefit from it in immoral ways. Neither do they have to be the cause of a war to take advantage of it or prolong it by selling their weapons. I don’t know if war preceded the selling of arms, but I would be willing to bet top dollar that the selling of arms began very shortly after the first conflict. Eisenhower warned us of the military industrial complex and, guess what? He was right.
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Look again at his word: “Many powerful people don’t want peace because they live off war.”

Would we say of the pharmaceutical industry, “many powerful people don’t want health because they live off disease?"

Would we say of charitable institutions, “many powerful people don’t want prosperity because they live off poverty?”

Now there is a debate to be had about whether or not aggressive politicians should be armed regardless of the effectiveness of an arms embargo. But that’s not nearly as exciting. Would WWII have been shorter if the US had not sold arms to Britain and Russia? Probably. But not in a good way. On the other hand, selling arms to South Korea and Taiwan has probably prevented war.

We can be fairly certain that war long preceeded the selling of arms because we see it in the primitive societies without commerce and in the animal kingdom. So I think you would lose your top dollar.

A lecture on the causes of war should not begin and end with accusations against the arms industry.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Look again at his word: “Many powerful people don’t want peace because they live off war.”

Would we say of the pharmaceutical industry, “many powerful people don’t want health because they live off disease?"

Would we say of charitable institutions, “many powerful people don’t want prosperity because they live off poverty?”

Now there is a debate to be had about whether or not aggressive politicians should be armed regardless of the effectiveness of an arms embargo. But that’s not nearly as exciting. Would WWII have been shorter if the US had not sold arms to Britain and Russia? Probably. But not in a good way. On the other hand, selling arms to South Korea and Taiwan has probably prevented war.

We can be fairly certain that war long preceeded the selling of arms because we see it in the primitive societies without commerce and in the animal kingdom. So I think you would lose your top dollar.

A lecture on the causes of war should not begin and end with accusations against the arms industry.
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Concerning the examples you presented concerning the pharmaceutical companies and the point you make that many powerful people live off poverty . . . I would absolutely make those statements. In fact, many people have made those statements. Yes, pharmaceutical companies have been known to make profits from diseases and poor health. Yes, powerful people have been known to make profits by exploiting poverty and the poor. Yes, weapons manufacturers and sellers have been known to make profits from war. I doubt I would lose any money on a bet that said profiteering from war began shortly around the time of the first war.
 
Tsuwano said:
Concerning the examples you presented concerning the pharmaceutical companies and the point you make that many powerful people live off poverty . . . I would absolutely make those statements. In fact, many people have made those statements. Yes, pharmaceutical companies have been known to make profits from diseases and poor health. Yes, powerful people have been known to make profits by exploiting poverty and the poor. Yes, weapons manufacturers and sellers have been known to make profits from war. I doubt I would lose any money on a bet that said profiteering from war began shortly around the time of the first war.
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Why shouldn’t pharmaceutical companies make a profit? Should they all be non-profit, charitable organizations? If so, you’d eliminate any incentive for innovation and research which ends up making life much more comfortable for those with health problems. 🤷

Ishii
 
Tsuwano said:
Concerning the examples you presented concerning the pharmaceutical companies and the point you make that many powerful people live off poverty . . . I would absolutely make those statements. In fact, many people have made those statements. Yes, pharmaceutical companies have been known to make profits from diseases and poor health. Yes, powerful people have been known to make profits by exploiting poverty and the poor. Yes, weapons manufacturers and sellers have been known to make profits from war.
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Nobody questions that profits are made from suffering in the examples given. Indeed, anyone who pofits by solving problems is profiting from those problems. But let me remind you of the Pope’s words:

“Many powerful people don’t want peace because they live off war."

That is quite something altogether different.
I doubt I would lose any money on a bet that said profiteering from war began shortly around the time of the first war.
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Since you refuse to decend from general claims and provide concrete examples, I’ll offer some for my claim.

Consider the ancient period of history: Greece, Macedonia, Rome. With the discovery of metallurgy soldiers no longer made their own weapons. Swords and such were manufactured and sold by smiths expert in metal working. And, yet, you will find no reference to the arms industry of Rome or any other ancient society as “powerful” and a cause of the perpetuation of war. Historians hardly bother to mention them.

Another example: the gunpowder era as exemplified by the Napoleonic wars. By this time you have very robust industries for the making of guns, canon, and gunpowder, to give just three examples. Still, no historical mention of a “military industrial complex” of powerful men driving war.

Historians just don’t seem to think much of the Pope’s theory. But, hey, maybe he knows something they don’t.
 
ishii said:
Why shouldn’t pharmaceutical companies make a profit? Should they all be non-profit, charitable organizations? If so, you’d eliminate any incentive for innovation and research which ends up making life much more comfortable for those with health problems. 🤷
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What you have to understand is that some people believe that profit is the root of all evil. Take the profit out of war, health care, etc. and all will be well. I suppose even the salaries of clergy ought to bring suspicion upon them. Are they living off sin?
 
edwest2 said:
It is a difficult reality to talk about. While all countries have legitimate reasons to defend themselves, there are arms deals between various countries, there is a black market for arms and there are dictatorships that use their men and equipment to control their people as well as to maintain power. New weapons and equipment are made and offered for sale. From multi-ton tanks and other vehicles to artillery and infantry equipment and transport vehicles. From an old movie: “There’s no money in peace.”

God bless Pope Francis.

Ed
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These facts alone make me wonder if all these arms manufacturers, dealers, etc. are not somehow in the business of ensuring wars continue, Im positive they have ALOT of ‘pull’ among the powerful Govt groups.
 
mikekle said:
These facts alone make me wonder if all these arms manufacturers, dealers, etc. are not somehow in the business of ensuring wars continue, Im positive they have ALOT of ‘pull’ among the powerful Govt groups.
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Yeah, General Dynamics is “pulling” ISIS to exterminate Christians. Right.

Pope Francis and his acolytes insist that Islam is a religion of peace but that defense contractors are the root of war.

Go figure.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Yeah, General Dynamics is “pulling” ISIS to exterminate Christians. Right.

Pope Francis and his acolytes insist that Islam is a religion of peace but that defense contractors are the root of war.

Go figure.
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But even with ISIS, political strategies come into play. The Kurdish Marxist party (I forgot their full title) is fighting them but have been denied aid because they are Marxist. Meanwhile people die, because the US doesn’t want to aid Marxists.
 
StudentMI said:
But even with ISIS, political strategies come into play. The Kurdish Marxist party (I forgot their full title) is fighting them but have been denied aid because they are Marxist. Meanwhile people die, because the US doesn’t want to aid Marxists.
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This is beside the point. The Middle East is a vast confusion of politics.

But the claim is that we can best understand war by looking to powerful arms manufacturers and sellers who make a living from it and who, therefore, are opposed to peace and, as many here claim, perpetuate war.

Is that really the best understanding?
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Look, we can all agree that this is great drama. Wonderful fodder for entertaining movies.

But can someone point to a real world example? I’ve studied a bit of history and I can’t recall a single war the cause of which was weapons industrialists. War long preceded the selling of arms.

This storyline is worse than naive. It is unjust.

Defense contractors are being offered as scapegoats for the sins of others, primarily politicians. And who do we see driving in the nails?

Sad.
Click to expand...
As a student of military history, those who went to war started by making their own weapons, followed by others making them. During World War II, did Hitler pay for the raw materials, production facilities and the weapons made? He was supported by industrialists like Krupp, Thyssen, the largest chemical cartel in the world, I.G. Farben, and other companies that made equipment, like Zeiss, Telefunken and Siemens. Before he came to power, various companies were preparing for the next war. They just had to pick the right man to sell it to the people. Hitler’s oratory skills have been studied: the words, the gestures, the facial expressions.

And who profited? Hitler? No, the industrialists, and their bankers.

Ed
 
edwest2 said:
As a student of military history, those who went to war started by making their own weapons, followed by others making them.
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Yeah, for most of human history. Which demonstrates my point: war preceeded the “militarty industrial complex” by mellinea.
During World War II, did Hitler pay for the raw materials, production facilities and the weapons made? He was supported by industrialists like Krupp, Thyssen, the largest chemical cartel in the world, I.G. Farben, and other companies that made equipment, like Zeiss, Telefunken and Siemens. Before he came to power, various companies were preparing for the next war. They just had to pick the right man to sell it to the people. Hitler’s oratory skills have been studied: the words, the gestures, the facial expressions.
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Honeslty?! You really believe that Hitler was a pawn of German weapons industrialists?
And who profited? Hitler? No, the industrialists, and their bankers.
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Thanks for so explicitly revealing the mentality behind this exercise in scapegoating: starting with the question “who profits” instead of “who starts wars” or, more simply, who are the powerful people who don’t want peace. So, yeah, never mind that Hitler was a dictator and war criminal because he didn’t profit by it.
 
Tsuwano said:
It’s not quite true that there is no money in peace. In fact, there is quite a bit of money in peace. The difference is that the benefits of peace are usually spread around in a fair and equal manner offering opportunity for all, whereas the benefits of war are usually gained by only a few who do not directly participate in the suffering of war.
Click to expand...
There most definitely is a peace dividend. Europe has benefited greatly from fifty years of peace, and have used that dividend to construct one of the most expensive social benefits system that has ever existed.

Canada and Australia have also benefited greatly from peace.
 
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