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cyberwolf001
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That is indeed the teaching although of late the church is RAPIDLY backing away from it the damage is done. You can still find theologians that will tell you that yes being raped equals lost purity.
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Cristiano
Guest
This is a different topic on the theology of sin that is moving way off thread and if you want to discuss it we can start a new thread.
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cathmomonline
Guest
Pope JPII, in an address marking the 100th Anniv. of her birth quoted an earlier Pope:
She chose death when there was no other way to defend her virginal purity." (Pope John Paul II, on the occasion of her 100th anniversary of her birth).
“In the homily for her canonization, Pope Pius XII of venerable memory pointed to Maria Goretti as “the sweet little martyr of purity” (cf. Discorsi e Radiomessaggi, XII [1950-1951], 121), because she did not break God’s commandment in spite of being threatened by death.” (Same Source).
How is a person’s purity damaged by being raped? Also the second quote from the same document says, “she did not break God’s commandment in spite of being threatened by death.”
WHAT? How could she have broken God’s commandment even if a rape had occured?
I am not sure where to take this thread-- I think it relates directly to Maria Goretti- but if you think it should go elsewhere, let me know where I should take it.
Thank you. Please pray for me.
She chose death when there was no other way to defend her virginal purity." (Pope John Paul II, on the occasion of her 100th anniversary of her birth).
“In the homily for her canonization, Pope Pius XII of venerable memory pointed to Maria Goretti as “the sweet little martyr of purity” (cf. Discorsi e Radiomessaggi, XII [1950-1951], 121), because she did not break God’s commandment in spite of being threatened by death.” (Same Source).
How is a person’s purity damaged by being raped? Also the second quote from the same document says, “she did not break God’s commandment in spite of being threatened by death.”
WHAT? How could she have broken God’s commandment even if a rape had occured?
I am not sure where to take this thread-- I think it relates directly to Maria Goretti- but if you think it should go elsewhere, let me know where I should take it.
Thank you. Please pray for me.
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Luigi_Daniele
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Antonio had made many “regular*” advances to St Maria. These were “regular*” advances suggesting, I think, that she lose her virginity to him. She turned him down again and again. In the end he physically tried to force himself on her while armed. She resisted this attempted rape, and was stabbed and died later.
The Holy Father was speaking of Antonio’s earlier advances, which she denied. They weren’t attempted rape in the criminal sense. They were lewd advances. Again, this is what the Holy Father was talking about.
*NB: I use “regular” for lack of a better word. By using it, I in no way mean to suggest that these type of advances are “OK” or licit or worthy of a Christian man. Just to be clear.
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Student09
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I, too, wish that the Church and the various websites about Maria Goretti would focus on her extraordinary forgiveness, rather than the fact that she wasn’t raped and making her the patron saint of purity. Yes, she was pure, but there is something insensitive in the way her story is handled and presented. There are so many children who suffer regular sexual abuse - often from family members - that they cannot escape or do not know how to escape. Abusers of this type do not offer their victims a choice between rape and death, anyway.
Please don’t lose faith or leave the Church over this - the members of the Church can be insensitive sometimes in their language, but it is still the Church that Jesus founded and in which he instituted the Sacraments. As far as I know, there is no official teaching that rape makes anyone impure. For a long time the Church taught “Limbo” for unbaptized babies, but it has recently made clear that that is not an official teaching that must be believed. Pray for the Church to be more clear and sensitive in Her teachings on this matter.
Purity is a difficult thing to understand. I also think that the feeling of purity is different from actually being pure - and the two can be confused. Rape victims often feel impure, and then if someone suggests that they really are impure, it is like a confirmation of that feeling, but that doesn’t make it true.
I don’t know what else to say, but you are in my prayers.
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Student09
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Also, I see that earlier in this thread - wow, some time ago! - I said that I would rather die than be raped. That is still true for me, and I have always felt that way, but I feel I should clarify that that is not because I am noble and extremely pure, but because the idea of having my body violated in that way is horrifying to me. *If *given the choice between death or rape, I believe I would choose death, but I don’t think it would be an act of martyrdom for me, since a great part of the motivation would be simply avoiding the horror of rape itself. I think one would be fortunate to be given the choice - most are not - and let us not forget those who are raped and then killed, especially in war. It is not unusual for women in wartime to plead for death rather than be raped, and have their pleas ignored. This has happened a lot in Rwanda and the Congo recently.
In short, Maria’s choice is not incomprehensible to me even from a purely emotional point of view. I do believe she was a saint and demonstrated a heroism that I would not have in her place …
Another thought - in many ancient cultures of the world (i.e. Greece, Rome, probably Eastern countries though I know less about that) there was an idea that if a woman was raped, she was completely degraded, a shame to her family, and the best thing for her to do was commit suicide - which many women did. This also applied to wartime rapes where the women were given absolutely no choice. There are still ideas like this in parts of the Middle East and Africa. This is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church. If there are ever even overtones of any idea that rape=impurity in Catholic writings, I think that is a hangover of these ideas (which appear to be a fairly common attitude in human history - the rule, rather than the exception), but it is not religious truth or official teaching. I have never seen “being raped” on any Examination of Conscience.
In short, Maria’s choice is not incomprehensible to me even from a purely emotional point of view. I do believe she was a saint and demonstrated a heroism that I would not have in her place …
Another thought - in many ancient cultures of the world (i.e. Greece, Rome, probably Eastern countries though I know less about that) there was an idea that if a woman was raped, she was completely degraded, a shame to her family, and the best thing for her to do was commit suicide - which many women did. This also applied to wartime rapes where the women were given absolutely no choice. There are still ideas like this in parts of the Middle East and Africa. This is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church. If there are ever even overtones of any idea that rape=impurity in Catholic writings, I think that is a hangover of these ideas (which appear to be a fairly common attitude in human history - the rule, rather than the exception), but it is not religious truth or official teaching. I have never seen “being raped” on any Examination of Conscience.
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cathmomonline
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Dear Student09,
Your thoughtful replies have been comforting to me. I am not planning to leave the Church- I do understand that the Church holds the fullness of the faith. The problem is that I struggle every Sunday to go to Mass. It isn’t from laziness, either. It is a true emotional / spiritual repulsion. Twice in the past year I have fallen to the temptation of missing Sunday Mass because of my deep sadness and spiritual depression stemming from the Church’s treatment of Maria Goretti. I am trying to stay faithful, but it is so hard. I know the Sacraments are still there, but I feel such sadness in receiving them.
I used to attend daily Mass for years, and I also prayed the Liturgy of the Hours every day for years.
Please pray for me. I feel so alone in this and the pain is so great. I want to love the Church again, but I feel hurt, betrayed and abandoned by this language.
Thanks again to you and everyone who has tried to help me.
Your thoughtful replies have been comforting to me. I am not planning to leave the Church- I do understand that the Church holds the fullness of the faith. The problem is that I struggle every Sunday to go to Mass. It isn’t from laziness, either. It is a true emotional / spiritual repulsion. Twice in the past year I have fallen to the temptation of missing Sunday Mass because of my deep sadness and spiritual depression stemming from the Church’s treatment of Maria Goretti. I am trying to stay faithful, but it is so hard. I know the Sacraments are still there, but I feel such sadness in receiving them.
I used to attend daily Mass for years, and I also prayed the Liturgy of the Hours every day for years.
Please pray for me. I feel so alone in this and the pain is so great. I want to love the Church again, but I feel hurt, betrayed and abandoned by this language.
Thanks again to you and everyone who has tried to help me.
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ClayPots47
Guest
I have read the official biography several times. Alessandro Serenelli himself contributed greatly to it. Maria was a 12 year old girl who was quite developed physically for her age. 18 Year old Serenelli had been perusing pornographic material, which Maria was aware of, and noticed Maria’s blossoming for some time. On numerous occasions, he had attempted to seduce her to have sexual relations with him. He had also threatened her if she said anything. She was, quite honestly, afraid of him. She also did not want to create problems with her mother’s work relationship with the Serenelli’s, who were good hardworking people that made it possible for the Goretti family to be able to provide for themselves.
Maria repeatedly rebuffed Alessandro, which only made him more determined. It is the fact that she would not consent to his impure desires that she became a patron of purity. Serenelli himself mentions addictions to pornography and masturbation at that time. He set about plotting, planning, for an opportunity to be alone with her. When the Goretti’s and Serenelli’s worked in the fields, Maria watched and cared for her baby sister, and worked on sewing the items her mother placed in the mending basket. Alessandro slipped away from the field and went to the house under the pretext of wanting a glass of water. Maria had been sitting just outside the door, on the step, within earshot of her sister. She went into the house to get the water and Alessandro followed her, he then cornered her and demanded that she submit to him. She refused and told him that it was a sin. He grappled with her, tore her dress, and repeated his demands. She pushed him away and said she would not, it was a sin. She would not help him by cooperating in this sin because he would go to hell. She would not offend God by consenting to such impurity.
Alessandro says that he became enraged, he pushed her down and ripped the bodice of her dress, and yanked her skirt up. She tried to push him off, and kept saying , “No Alessandro, it is a sin, you will go to hell”. It was at that point that he produced the knife and stabbed her. She isn’t a model of purity because she fought off a potential rape. She’s a model because she would not consent to his demands for sexual intercourse. The rape attempt only came after she warded off his sexual advances. And he wasn’t successful at that because she chose to be an unwilling victim. He didn’t go to the house with the intent of raping Maria, he wanted her cooperation in the sin; which she would not do even when he produced the knife and indicated to her the ultimatum, submit or die. The rape attempt was a last ditch attempt to get what he originally wanted, but when he realized that she would fight his attempts and he wouldn’t succeeed, then he stabbed her.
Serenelli also felt trapped; Maria’s and his voices awakened the baby, and he was afraid that the cries would be heard from the fields. So he stabbed her several times then quickly exited the house. Sure enough, Maria’s mother heard the baby crying, and returned to the house to find her daughter lying in a pool of blood with her clothes disheveled. Maria, trying to preserve her modesty by pulling the torn fabric over her bosom, said to Assunta, “It was Alessandro, Mama. He wanted to commit a grave sin, and I said “No””. On the way to the hospital, Maria not only forgave Alessandro Serenelli, she said she would spend her eternity praying for his conversion. Her sanctity is a result of her refusal to submit to fornication, her forgiveness of her attacker, and her desire that he would convert, repent, and spend eternity in Heaven. She never, at any time, held any ill will towards the young man. It tales extraordinary holiness to forgive the person who repeatedly pressured you to yield to his impure desires, then stabbed you because of your refusal to cooperate in sin with him.
A lot of books and movies tend to water down the details, or exaggerate to the point of making the saint seem unapproachable. cathmomonline, I hope reading this, much of which came from first hand accounts by Allessandro Serenelli and Assunta Goretti; will help you to understand where Maria’s purity plays a role in her sanctity. As well as her forgiveness, and desire for repentance, of her attacker. Maria did physically fight him, but a 12 yo girl is physically no match for an 18 yo teenage boy who was exceptionally strong due to laboring in the fields. She not only wouldn’t cooperate in sin with him, she wouldn’t even be an unwilling partner and allow him to endanger his soul without her help. She was as much concerned with his salvation as she was her own. His conversion ultimately took place following a dream he had of her.
Maria repeatedly rebuffed Alessandro, which only made him more determined. It is the fact that she would not consent to his impure desires that she became a patron of purity. Serenelli himself mentions addictions to pornography and masturbation at that time. He set about plotting, planning, for an opportunity to be alone with her. When the Goretti’s and Serenelli’s worked in the fields, Maria watched and cared for her baby sister, and worked on sewing the items her mother placed in the mending basket. Alessandro slipped away from the field and went to the house under the pretext of wanting a glass of water. Maria had been sitting just outside the door, on the step, within earshot of her sister. She went into the house to get the water and Alessandro followed her, he then cornered her and demanded that she submit to him. She refused and told him that it was a sin. He grappled with her, tore her dress, and repeated his demands. She pushed him away and said she would not, it was a sin. She would not help him by cooperating in this sin because he would go to hell. She would not offend God by consenting to such impurity.
Alessandro says that he became enraged, he pushed her down and ripped the bodice of her dress, and yanked her skirt up. She tried to push him off, and kept saying , “No Alessandro, it is a sin, you will go to hell”. It was at that point that he produced the knife and stabbed her. She isn’t a model of purity because she fought off a potential rape. She’s a model because she would not consent to his demands for sexual intercourse. The rape attempt only came after she warded off his sexual advances. And he wasn’t successful at that because she chose to be an unwilling victim. He didn’t go to the house with the intent of raping Maria, he wanted her cooperation in the sin; which she would not do even when he produced the knife and indicated to her the ultimatum, submit or die. The rape attempt was a last ditch attempt to get what he originally wanted, but when he realized that she would fight his attempts and he wouldn’t succeeed, then he stabbed her.
Serenelli also felt trapped; Maria’s and his voices awakened the baby, and he was afraid that the cries would be heard from the fields. So he stabbed her several times then quickly exited the house. Sure enough, Maria’s mother heard the baby crying, and returned to the house to find her daughter lying in a pool of blood with her clothes disheveled. Maria, trying to preserve her modesty by pulling the torn fabric over her bosom, said to Assunta, “It was Alessandro, Mama. He wanted to commit a grave sin, and I said “No””. On the way to the hospital, Maria not only forgave Alessandro Serenelli, she said she would spend her eternity praying for his conversion. Her sanctity is a result of her refusal to submit to fornication, her forgiveness of her attacker, and her desire that he would convert, repent, and spend eternity in Heaven. She never, at any time, held any ill will towards the young man. It tales extraordinary holiness to forgive the person who repeatedly pressured you to yield to his impure desires, then stabbed you because of your refusal to cooperate in sin with him.
A lot of books and movies tend to water down the details, or exaggerate to the point of making the saint seem unapproachable. cathmomonline, I hope reading this, much of which came from first hand accounts by Allessandro Serenelli and Assunta Goretti; will help you to understand where Maria’s purity plays a role in her sanctity. As well as her forgiveness, and desire for repentance, of her attacker. Maria did physically fight him, but a 12 yo girl is physically no match for an 18 yo teenage boy who was exceptionally strong due to laboring in the fields. She not only wouldn’t cooperate in sin with him, she wouldn’t even be an unwilling partner and allow him to endanger his soul without her help. She was as much concerned with his salvation as she was her own. His conversion ultimately took place following a dream he had of her.
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thequeen
Guest
Saint Maria Goretti is a good role model for our youth today.
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cathmomonline
Guest
Claypots:
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry. For me, that explanation, however, did not help. I do not doubt her sanctity at all. Her ability to forgive was beautiful. I don’t think, however, that her situation was at all analagous to the temptations against chastity that girls face. Girls who are tempted to be unchaste have a clear cut attraction to the male who is tempting her. They have strong feelings of affection toward that male, and want to please him to win more attention from him. Clearly this was not the case for Maria Goretti. She was being stalked and leered at and spoken to in crude ways. Most girls at that age would be terrified of older males with such behavior. This is not a true temptation against chastity, but rather a temptation against charity.
Thanks for trying to help me. I will keep praying to Maria Goretti for additional insight, comfort, and help.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry. For me, that explanation, however, did not help. I do not doubt her sanctity at all. Her ability to forgive was beautiful. I don’t think, however, that her situation was at all analagous to the temptations against chastity that girls face. Girls who are tempted to be unchaste have a clear cut attraction to the male who is tempting her. They have strong feelings of affection toward that male, and want to please him to win more attention from him. Clearly this was not the case for Maria Goretti. She was being stalked and leered at and spoken to in crude ways. Most girls at that age would be terrified of older males with such behavior. This is not a true temptation against chastity, but rather a temptation against charity.
Thanks for trying to help me. I will keep praying to Maria Goretti for additional insight, comfort, and help.
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cathmomonline
Guest
Since when is being the VICTIM of rape a sin? I don’t understand your comment.
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Cristiano
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He did not say that, I have not seen anyone implying that being raped is sinful. He was commenting to the general statement that is better to accept death than to sin. Quite a few of the early martyrs choose to accept death over committing the sin of idolatry by worshiping the Roman emperor. It might sound like semantics but there is also a big difference between choosing death and accepting death. The first is sinful the second can be an heroic virtue.
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