Marian devotion and veneration

[puzzleannie]

Traditions about Mary were preserved and believed from the beginning of the Church, certainly before the 5th century when the Marian doctrines were formally enunciated in Church councils. The doctrines were not invented by the Councils, but defined beliefs already current and preserved in tradition, for the purpose of defining doctrine about Jesus, which is the purpose for all Marian doctrine. We need Fr. Ambrose and the other forum participants from the Orthodox Churches and Eastern Rites to weigh in here.

 

[Des]

Catholic Encyclopedia speaks indepth of the Immaculate Conception.

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

 

[Chris_W]

Coptic:

I understand your interpretation, but do not agree, because I see no evidence/proof of it. But it is a beautiful idea.

Psalm 40, 5 says God hath sanctified his own tabernacle. God purified His tabernacle because His Body (Jesus) was to dwell in the tabernacle. This is a foreshadowing of Mary, the new Ark of the Covenant.

The angel told Mary, “The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the most high shall overshadow thee…” (Luke 1, 35). This is the same language in Exodus 40, 31-34. When Moses dedicated the Ark of the Covenant “the power of the most high descended upon the ark.”

Exodus 25 describes how the Old Testament Ark had to be made in a particular way. This is because it was a type of Mary. Golden rings were to be made into the ark, so that it could be carried with poles, since no one could touch the ark. Sin (sinful men) could not touch the ark, or they would be dead. Numbers Chapter 4 says you cannot even look inside the ark or you would die.

The Ark was a source of power for the Israelites. They won their battles when they had the Ark with them. And when they lost the Ark, 1Samuel (Kings) 5 says the Israelites lost their glory (power).

1 Samuel 6 describes how the Philistines started dying because of the Ark, which they had stolen. Their stone god kept falling over until the head was broken (head crushed). Then, in 1 Samuel 7, the Ark was returned to Israel, because the Philistines realized the power of the Ark.

David called for Ark of the Covenant to be brought to him. While on the way to Jerusalem on the back of oxen, the Ark rocked like it would fall to the ground. In an effort to steady the Ark, the priest reached his hand out and touched the Ark. God struck him dead. Why would God kill the priest for trying to take care of the Ark? They were not told the Ark couldn’t touch the ground, but rather, it could not be touched by sinful man. The Ark was absolutely untouched by sin.

What made the Ark so important and powerful? It contained The Word of God, and the manna, (as well as the rod of Aaron that budded). What did Mary have in her womb? The Word of God (Jesus), who describes himself as the manna come down from heaven. At the dedication, the power of God came down upon the Ark. In a like manner, Mary, the new Ark of the Covenant, was overshadowed by the power of God, and the Word dwelt in her.

David realized the power of the Ark in the death of the priest, and sent the Ark of the Covenant away, where it stayed for three months. Likewise, Mary went away to stay with Elizabeth, also for three months.

When Mary came to Elizabeth, notice what Elizabeth says to Mary; “Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1; 43) This is just what David said in regard to the Ark, “Who am I that the Ark of the Covenant should come to me?”

When Mary came to Elizabeth, something else happened as well. The child leapt in Elizabeth’s womb. What did David do when the Ark came to him? He leapt and danced before the Ark (2 Kings (Samuel) 6, 14-15).

The parallel is unmistakable. Mary is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant.
We might do well to notice that Michel (David’s wife) frowned on David’s rejoicing before the Ark and was punished by never having another child. We should be careful what we say about the new Ark of the Covenant.

Some people might assert that the rejoicing of John the Baptist in the womb of Elizabeth is attributed to Jesus in Mary’s womb, not Mary at all. In a sense this is true but this scripture is not emphasizing that point. The rejoicing is upon Mary’s greeting, (when Elizabeth “heard” the greeting of Mary), not upon Mary’s entering the house. And the response is “blessed are you…and…blessed is…Jesus.” The response was not “who am I that my Lord should come to me”. Rather, it was “who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me”. And it continues “for as soon as I heard your voice…” Again the emphasis is on Mary.

Recognizing Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant, and that as such, she could not be touched by sin (that is to say she was sinless), helps us to understand other Marian Doctrines. God sanctified Mary at the instant of her conception, so that His tabernacle would be pure.

 

[Lorarose]

I understand your interpretation, but do not agree, because I see no evidence/proof of it. But it is a beautiful idea

It is a beautiful idea isn’t it?
But it isn’t mine.
This is a concept that the Church contemplated, and being guided by the Holy Spirit – has come to understand more fully over time.
It is rooted in scripture - and also in Tradition.

If you read the Early Fathers you will see the roots. You will see them referring to Mary as the “new Eve”, as “without stain” and “without blemish”

I don’t know which orthodox churches accept this and which do not.
I have read one orthodox person state that those orthodox who do not accept it do not have a problem with the teaching, so much as they do not share the same definition of original sin as the Roman Catholic Church does.
Not sure exactly what that means, but would make an interesting topic for another thread.

 

[santaro75]

Christ is the bridge between humanity and God. He is the great reconciler of the world. In JN 17:20-24 He says that we are one with him who is one with the Father and we are one with eachother.

To me this means that the Church is one, It isn’t about me and Jesus, But about We and Jesus. So by asking the Saints to pray for us, It is a sign of Unity of the Eternal church. And since Mary was the first Christian she is the Eve of the new era and our great Mother. This entire thing started in its physical form with her.

BTW, How do you guys read that passage JN17:20-24?

 

[teresas1979]

Their strong deviotion to Our Lady comes the apperience of Our Lady of Guadalupe, I do hope that you know that she not only appeared in Mexico for the “Latin American’s” but for all American’s I think that it is own lack of belief that we don’t see how much she wants us to turn to her son Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sorry that your quote is the one that got picked on Monica but what you say above is why many people do not agree with the Marian apparitions. Why would Mary only appear for Americans? Why are they so special and the rest of the world is not? Why when Mary appeared at Lourdes did she choose that place? Did this mean she was only appearing for the French? Or for Europeans?

If the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ decided to come down from Heaven to give the world messages, why would those messages only be for some people? The inference is that she is only interested in reaching *some *people and not everyone which would surely be her aim? So why did she only appear for Americans at Fatima?

 

[jimmy]

gladtobe:

The early church as a whole held to the perpetual virginity of Mary.But some of the ancient worthies didn’t. They were Tertullian, Eunomius, Jovinian, Helvidius, Bonosus of Saricica and the Antidicomarianites.(cited from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma pg 206, Dr Ludwig Ott)

I personally feel Mary remained a virgin. Probably the toughest bible verse to understand is where it states that Jesus was Mary’s** firstborn** Son. **Firstborn usually means first in a class of many. **

I would find it difficult to believe that Joseph would have wanted to have carnal sexual relations with Mary after just giving birth to God. Think about it. I be afraid to even touch her, in fear I might drop dead.

Yes helvidius did not follow the perpetual virginity, but Jerome refutes all his arguements very nicely.

I agree, I can’t see Joseph wanting to after seeing her give birth to God.

 

[puzzleannie]

gladtobe:

There is nothing wrong with praying to Mary or any of the saints, in asking them, to pray for you, but for your soul’s salvation, only God through Christ alone, offers you salvation. I know extreme Marian devotees claim Mary offers salvation, but this is not true. Salvation only comes from God through Jesus Christ.John 14:6. Pray to God the Father, in Jesus’ name and he will keep you saved. Mary cannot save you or anyone.

I have been a Catholic for over 60 years, attended Catholic school for 12 years, Catholic colleges, lived in 6 different dioceses, several parishes, received over 100 hours post-graduate theology and related credits, attended countless missions, retreats, seminars. Read regularly at least 12 Catholic magazines and journals. Traveled to several countries in mission-related activities for the Church, including several Hispanic countries. Never in all that time have I ever heard a Catholic preacher, priest, teacher or writer claim that Mary offers salvation.

Before you attack Catholic belief, please state Catholic belief accurately, not “what you know” or “what you heard” without attribution, credit or backup. You are wasting everybody’s time.

 

[Lorarose]

Sorry that your quote is the one that got picked on Monica but what you say above is why many people do not agree with the Marian apparitions. Why would Mary only appear for Americans? Why are they so special and the rest of the world is not? Why when Mary appeared at Lourdes did she choose that place? Did this mean she was only appearing for the French? Or for Europeans?

If the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ decided to come down from Heaven to give the world messages, why would those messages only be for some people? The inference is that she is only interested in reaching some people and not everyone which would surely be her aim? So why did she only appear for Americans at Fatima?

A few thoughts came to mind in reading this post.

Why did Jesus choose to live only in the Middle East while on earth?
Did He not care about the rest of the world?

Does that mean the words He spoke in that area applied only to Middle Easterners?
Or did His message apply to the whole world?

If God chooses to bless a particular people, in a particular place, at a particular time - and we cannot figure out his reasons behind it…should we assume there are no “good” reasons?
Or is it possible we should trust that God does, indeed, have His reasons?

When God chooses to bless particular people, in particular places, at a particular time - should we assume He does not care about all the people “left out”?