Marian Devotion, or lack there of

[Bible_Catholic]

I am Catholic, but I feel no Marian devotion what so ever. I believe that she was chosen in eternity past to be the earthly mother of our Lord, Jesus. I believe that she was “saved” by Jesus at the point of conception and thus born without original sin (so was John the Baptizer, btw). I accept that she is ever virgin. I believe that she is the first Christian and that her response to God’s request is a model for all of us to follow. I accept that she may have appeared to people around the world bringing messages from her Son. I don’t reject her at all (though I do reject the way some people elevate her to near deity status and in doing so completely ignore the Father or the Holy Spirit who along with Jesus should be the focus of our prayer) I have tried to pray the Rosary and meditate on the Passion, or scripture, but get nothing out of it. I invoke her intersession in prayer but I do that in one sentence, “Blessed Mother please join me in worship”, after that it’s me and the Father with the Holy Spirit bringing my prayers to Him and Jesus making it all possible. Am I alone in this? Again, I am cradle Catholic and not someone looking to start an argument. I just want to see if anyone else (catholic) feels the same way.

God Bless

 

[DOShea]

I don’t think it is Church teaching to say John the Baptist was born sinless. The Scriptures do indicate he was filled with the Holy Spirit in Elizabeth’s womb, but that is a different teaching than John born without Original Sin. Also, nothing says that he committed no sin from his birth on.

I think what might cause some confusion in this is that John the Baptist is the only other person outside of Mary and Jesus whose birthday is celebrated in the Liturgy. The other Saints are celebrated based on the date of their death (birth into eternal life). But celebrating John’s birth doesn’t equate to John born without sin.

I also don’t think saying Mary was “saved” by Jesus at conception is a very good way to convey that God granted Mary a particular grace granted to no other human being, because to say it in the way you have implies that Mary was destined at that moment for final salvation - thus robbing her of free will. She was not “once saved always saved.” She was given a special grace by God and given the same choice Eve was given in the garden; comply with God, or not. Unlike Eve, Mary chose to cooperate with God’s grace, and continued in that cooperation throughout her earthly life.

 

[peary]

I am Catholic, but I feel no Marian devotion what so ever. I believe that she was chosen in eternity past to be the earthly mother of our Lord, Jesus. I believe that she was “saved” by Jesus at the point of conception and thus born without original sin (so was John the Baptizer, btw). I accept that she is ever virgin. I believe that she is the first Christian and that her response to God’s request is a model for all of us to follow. I accept that she may have appeared to people around the world bringing messages from her Son. I don’t reject her at all (though I do reject the way some people elevate her to near deity status and in doing so completely ignore the Father or the Holy Spirit who along with Jesus should be the focus of our prayer) I have tried to pray the Rosary and meditate on the Passion, or scripture, but get nothing out of it. I invoke her intersession in prayer but I do that in one sentence, “Blessed Mother please join me in worship”, after that it’s me and the Father with the Holy Spirit bringing my prayers to Him and Jesus making it all possible. Am I alone in this? Again, I am cradle Catholic and not someone looking to start an argument. I just want to see if anyone else (catholic) feels the same way.

God Bless

Actually, I think that you have a healthy relationship with both Mary and Our Lord.

 

[Monica4316]

I am Catholic, but I feel no Marian devotion what so ever. I believe that she was chosen in eternity past to be the earthly mother of our Lord, Jesus. I believe that she was “saved” by Jesus at the point of conception and thus born without original sin (so was John the Baptizer, btw). I accept that she is ever virgin. I believe that she is the first Christian and that her response to God’s request is a model for all of us to follow. I accept that she may have appeared to people around the world bringing messages from her Son. I don’t reject her at all (though I do reject the way some people elevate her to near deity status and in doing so completely ignore the Father or the Holy Spirit who along with Jesus should be the focus of our prayer) I have tried to pray the Rosary and meditate on the Passion, or scripture, but get nothing out of it. I invoke her intersession in prayer but I do that in one sentence, “Blessed Mother please join me in worship”, after that it’s me and the Father with the Holy Spirit bringing my prayers to Him and Jesus making it all possible. Am I alone in this? Again, I am cradle Catholic and not someone looking to start an argument. I just want to see if anyone else (catholic) feels the same way.

God Bless

I used to feel this way… Ive found that over time, my devotion to Our Lady grew, though I dont know why. Try to see her as our Mother who loves us… she hears our prayers when we talk to her… she wants to help us to know and love Jesus. We are her children too. Come to her like a little child… often it’s difficult to live the Christian life and life has its own struggles, sufferings…sometimes it feels like we’re trying to get across an ocean to God. The way I see it, Mary takes our hand and walks with us to Jesus. She really cares about us, as a Mother would. Try to pray to her from your heart… don’t fear devotion to Mary or loving her too much. There’s no competition between Jesus and Mary. When you say “Mary”, she says “Jesus”. Idolatry is not when we love Mary too much, but when we love Jesus too little… and she protects us from that, because the more we love her, the more she helps us to love God. she leads us closer to Jesus, so that we may receive His grace, and He in turn leads us to the Father.

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

I don’t think it is Church teaching to say John the Baptist was born sinless. The Scriptures do indicate he was filled with the Holy Spirit in Elizabeth’s womb, but that is a different teaching than John born without Original Sin.

that’s my understanding also… I never heard of this idea before, maybe I’m wrong though.

I just wanted to add one more thing… don’t measure your devotion to Mary by feelings. Feelings come and go… but there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be closer to her, that’s a good thing to want. Mary is always with Jesus and the closer we are to her, the closer we are to Him.

Think of her being His Mother, and also our Mother. And what that means. Think of her witnessing all the events of Our Lord’s life… giving birth to Him, and holding Him in her arms when He was a baby. How did she feel? what was it like for her? think of her seeing all His suffering, and sharing in His pain… and how she stood by the Cross and cried, but still surrendered to God’s will

God bless

 

[The_Reginator]

Firstly, I am not a cradle Catholic – I converted at the ripe old age of 38-ish.
Growing up a low-church Anglican, Marian devotion was a big stumbling block for me. (The first time I was handed a Rosary I was afraid to even touch it!)
Today I have no intellectual problem with Marian devotion. I believe you’ve summed up our relationship with Mary fairly well. I just keep reminding myself that she is our Queen.
For God to pick a mere mortal to be His Mother when becoming Man just blows me away! (Being God and all, I’m sure he could have become Man without being born of a woman.)
One of my biggest problems is with the Rosary. I find it hard to pray to God when I am addressing every 10 prayers to His Blessed Mother. (Is there a thread somewhere addressing this?)
So, I understand where you are coming from but I know that our Father has blessed us with a Queen to pray for us.
(And maybe I’ll start a thread on praying the Rosary – I’m not quite sure of the questions I’d like to ask yet.)

 

[The_Reginator]

I used to feel this way… Ive found that over time, my devotion to Our Lady grew, though I dont know why. Try to see her as our Mother who loves us… she hears our prayers when we talk to her… she wants to help us to know and love Jesus. We are her children too. Come to her like a little child… often it’s difficult to live the Christian life and life has its own struggles, sufferings…sometimes it feels like we’re trying to get across an ocean to God. The way I see it, Mary takes our hand and walks with us to Jesus. She really cares about us, as a Mother would. Try to pray to her from your heart… don’t fear devotion to Mary or loving her too much. There’s no competition between Jesus and Mary. When you say “Mary”, she says “Jesus”. Idolatry is not when we love Mary too much, but when we love Jesus too little… and she protects us from that, because the more we love her, the more she helps us to love God. she leads us closer to Jesus, so that we may receive His grace, and He in turn leads us to the Father.

God bless

That response helps me!

 

[Monica4316]

Firstly, I am not a cradle Catholic – I converted at the ripe old age of 38-ish.
Growing up a low-church Anglican, Marian devotion was a big stumbling block for me. (The first time I was handed a Rosary I was afraid to even touch it!)
Today I have no intellectual problem with Marian devotion. I believe you’ve summed up our relationship with Mary fairly well. I just keep reminding myself that she is our Queen.
For God to pick a mere mortal to be His Mother when becoming Man just blows me away! (Being God and all, I’m sure he could have become Man without being born of a woman.)
One of my biggest problems is with the Rosary. I find it hard to pray to God when I am addressing every 10 prayers to His Blessed Mother. (Is there a thread somewhere addressing this?)
So, I understand where you are coming from but I know that our Father has blessed us with a Queen to pray for us.
(And maybe I’ll start a thread on praying the Rosary – I’m not quite sure of the questions I’d like to ask yet.)

remember the Rosary is fully Scriptural when you say the Hail Mary, you’re repeating the words of St Gabriel…the words of an Archangel with these words, God announced the Incarnation, which lead to our redemption. It all goes back to Christ in the end. THe other part of the Hail Mary are the words of St Elizabeth which she spoke by the Holy Spirit. The last part is an early Church prayer.

The way I see it, Mary’s role as the Mother of Christ means that when we address her as His Mother, we are glorifying the Incarnation and our Redemption. Every time we say the Hail Mary, we do this.

The Rosary has been very powerful in the history of the Church…

though when I first started praying it, I was really afraid too!! I was still a Protestant at the time.

That response helps me!

God bless!

 

[Secret_Square]

If someone compliments my mom, praises her or gives her a nice gift, it makes ME happy too. Likewise, if someone honors me or does something nice for me, it makes my mom happy as well.

I would think the same is true of Jesus and Mary – Mary is pleased when her son is honored, and Jesus is pleased when His mother is honored. It’s a win-win situation!

 

[rosary4me]

I am Catholic, but I feel no Marian devotion what so ever. I believe that she was chosen in eternity past to be the earthly mother of our Lord, Jesus. I believe that she was “saved” by Jesus at the point of conception and thus born without original sin (so was John the Baptizer, btw). I accept that she is ever virgin. I believe that she is the first Christian and that her response to God’s request is a model for all of us to follow. I accept that she may have appeared to people around the world bringing messages from her Son. I don’t reject her at all (though I do reject the way some people elevate her to near deity status and in doing so completely ignore the Father or the Holy Spirit who along with Jesus should be the focus of our prayer) I have tried to pray the Rosary and meditate on the Passion, or scripture, but get nothing out of it. I invoke her intersession in prayer but I do that in one sentence, “Blessed Mother please join me in worship”, after that it’s me and the Father with the Holy Spirit bringing my prayers to Him and Jesus making it all possible. Am I alone in this? Again, I am cradle Catholic and not someone looking to start an argument. I just want to see if anyone else (catholic) feels the same way.

God Bless

I look at it like this. When we pray the rosary or just pray to Mary we are asking her to intercede for us. I pray every day to Mary to pray to Jesus for me. Have you heard it said–Our Lady is the surest way to her son. I learned much devotion to our Blessed Mother by reading “The Secret of the Rosary” and “True Devotion to Mary” both by St Louis De Montfort.
Hope this helps.

 

[AJV]

Many Popes and theologians have taught St. John the Baptist was born immaculate, and it is based on the verse quoted in Luke. It follows from the fact that he was filled with the Holy Spirit. It is also implicitly acknowledged in the calendar, which unlike other saints, celebrates his actual birth as his principal feast, instead of the day of his death.

To the OP: I also started out sort-of like that. I believed, in the mind, in all the dogmas of the Church, and would say the Hail Mary sometimes, or “Holy Mary, pray for me” but I wasn’t too big on Marian devotion. I was reluctant to even sing the hymn Ave Maris Stella because it asks Mary to break our chains, etc. directly. That seemed a bit too much. But gradually, I came to a greater appreciation of the role of Mary in the Church. Nowadays I recite the Eastern Paraklesis which is one of the most “high” Marian texts I’ve ever come across. I think it gradually grows on a person and it also comes down to some questions like:

(a) Do I believe that the Mother of Christ is my mother? (Yes)
(b) Is she concerned about the spiritual welfare of her spiritual children? (Yes)
(c) Does she have “power”? (Yes. All the baptized have power, how much more the Mother of God, the perfect disciple and exemplar Christian. There are so many examples in the Gospel and elsewhere, which record “power”. Christ gives “authority trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you”. Christ tells his apostles that they will judge the world. Etc.)
(d) Does this power belong to her? (No, it given by God, just as any power)
(e) Do I believe that God, capable of doing everything by Himself, and all-Sufficient, has nonethless deigned to associate the baptized in his work? (Yes)

And seen in this light, it does not seem unreasonable to me to address Mary, or even any of the saints, in direct prayer - e.g. the quote I gave earlier from the hymn “break our chains”. Such things are not making them gods, but all this they can do because of the power given to them by Christ. Even when they “break our chains”, there is an element there of supplication to the Holy Trinity, on whose power they ultimately rely on.

I admit there are still many extravagant phrases found in Marian devotion sometimes that unsettle me, but I would encourage you to try. It is just so rich, and yet another treasure of the Communion of Saints. Perhaps you could start with one of the Marian antiphons like the “Hail Holy Queen” (Salve Regina) or the “Ave Regina Caelorum”.

 

[The_Reginator]

Nowadays I recite the Eastern Paraklesis which is one of the most “high” Marian texts I’ve ever come across. I think it gradually grows on a person and it also comes down to some questions like:

(a) Do I believe that the Mother of Christ is my mother? (Yes)
(b) Is she concerned about the spiritual welfare of her spiritual children? (Yes)
(c) Does she have “power”? (Yes. All the baptized have power, how much more the Mother of God, the perfect disciple and exemplar Christian. There are so many examples in the Gospel and elsewhere, which record “power”. Christ gives “authority trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you”. Christ tells his apostles that they will judge the world. Etc.)
(d) Does this power belong to her? (No, it given by God, just as any power)
(e) Do I believe that God, capable of doing everything by Himself, and all-Sufficient, has nonethless deigned to associate the baptized in his work? (Yes)

And seen in this light, it does not seem unreasonable to me to address Mary, or even any of the saints, in direct prayer

Thank-you for sharing that!

 

[Hesychios]

I don’t think it is Church teaching to say John the Baptist was born sinless. The Scriptures do indicate he was filled with the Holy Spirit in Elizabeth’s womb, but that is a different teaching than John born without Original Sin.

Actually, he was born without sin. That is the traditional belief.

The later Marian dogma is about her conception, not her birth.

Also, nothing says that he committed no sin from his birth on.

You are free to believe that he committed no sins in his life.

 

[Jerok]

I used to question the practice of praying to the Saints and Mary. So I asked Jesus in prayer to help me to know his mother, and I prayed that every night for awhile. A few months later, and I’m saying the Rosary every night and have a great devotion to her. I really feel Jesus helped me to know Mary.

It’s like a circle; I prayed to Jesus to know Mary, and now I pray to Mary to know Jesus.

God bless!

 

[John92]

Firstly, I am not a cradle Catholic – I converted at the ripe old age of 38-ish.
Growing up a low-church Anglican, Marian devotion was a big stumbling block for me. (The first time I was handed a Rosary I was afraid to even touch it!)
Today I have no intellectual problem with Marian devotion. I believe you’ve summed up our relationship with Mary fairly well. I just keep reminding myself that she is our Queen.
For God to pick a mere mortal to be His Mother when becoming Man just blows me away! (Being God and all, I’m sure he could have become Man without being born of a woman.)
One of my biggest problems is with the Rosary. I find it hard to pray to God when I am addressing every 10 prayers to His Blessed Mother. (Is there a thread somewhere addressing this?)
So, I understand where you are coming from but I know that our Father has blessed us with a Queen to pray for us.
(And maybe I’ll start a thread on praying the Rosary – I’m not quite sure of the questions I’d like to ask yet.)

In terms of the rosary . . . well you’re not praying to God, at least not directly. You’re praying to Mary. Protestants don’t like that formulation but it’s accurate as long as you’re aware that she’s not “doing things” directly (at least not without God’s approval) but rather pleading on your behalf to her son. Focus on her when you pray to her; remember that she’s not God, but there’s nothing wrong with venerating her in the fullest sense and not necessarily “thinking about” God Himself.

 

[Tony9712262]

I am Catholic, but I feel no Marian devotion what so ever. I believe that she was chosen in eternity past to be the earthly mother of our Lord, Jesus. I believe that she was “saved” by Jesus at the point of conception and thus born without original sin (so was John the Baptizer, btw). I accept that she is ever virgin. I believe that she is the first Christian and that her response to God’s request is a model for all of us to follow. I accept that she may have appeared to people around the world bringing messages from her Son. I don’t reject her at all (though I do reject the way some people elevate her to near deity status and in doing so completely ignore the Father or the Holy Spirit who along with Jesus should be the focus of our prayer) I have tried to pray the Rosary and meditate on the Passion, or scripture, but get nothing out of it. I invoke her intersession in prayer but I do that in one sentence, “Blessed Mother please join me in worship”, after that it’s me and the Father with the Holy Spirit bringing my prayers to Him and Jesus making it all possible. Am I alone in this? Again, I am cradle Catholic and not someone looking to start an argument. I just want to see if anyone else (catholic) feels the same way.

God Bless

The Church does not make a person have a devotion to Mary, or any saints for that matter. I personally have a great devotion to Our Blessed Mother. By the way, to believe that John the Baptist was Immaculately conceived is heresy, for it is not Church teaching. It’s like saying that Jesus isn’t God, when the Church teaches that Jesus is God. LOL

 

[AJV]

The Church does not make a person have a devotion to Mary, or any saints for that matter. I personally have a great devotion to Our Blessed Mother. By the way, to believe that John the Baptist was Immaculately conceived is heresy, for it is not Church teaching. It’s like saying that Jesus isn’t God, when the Church teaches that Jesus is God. LOL

The (side)issue was not whether St. John’s *conception * was immaculate but whether his birth was.

 

[Hesychios]

The (side)issue was not whether St. John’s *conception * was immaculate but whether his birth was.

Exactly.

 

[Hesychios]

By the way, to believe that John the Baptist was Immaculately conceived is heresy, for it is not Church teaching.

Exactly.

When the messengers of John had left, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John. "What did you go out to the desert to see–a reed swayed by the wind? Then what did you go out to see? Someone dressed in fine garments? Those who dress luxuriously and live sumptuously are found in royal palaces. Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet.

This is the one about whom scripture says: ‘Behold, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, he will prepare your way before you.’ I tell you, among those born of women, no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
Luke 7:24-28 NAB

Then why did you go out? To see a prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet.This is the one about whom it is written: 'Behold, I am sending my messenger ahead of you; he will prepare your way before you.'Amen, I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence,

All the prophets and the law prophesied up to the time of John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is to come. Whoever has ears ought to hear. and the violent are taking it by force.
Matt 11 9:15 NAB

 

[Hesychios]

By the way, to believe that John the Baptist was Immaculately conceived is heresy, for it is not Church teaching.

Exactly.

When the messengers of John had left, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John. "What did you go out to the desert to see–a reed swayed by the wind? Then what did you go out to see? Someone dressed in fine garments? Those who dress luxuriously and live sumptuously are found in royal palaces. Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet.

This is the one about whom scripture says: ‘Behold, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, he will prepare your way before you.’ I tell you, among those born of women, no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
Luke 7:24-28 NAB

"Then why did you go out? To see a prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written: ‘Behold, I am sending my messenger ahead of you; he will prepare your way before you.’

Amen, I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent are taking it by force.

All the prophets and the law prophesied up to the time of John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is to come.

Whoever has ears ought to hear.
Matt 11 9:15 NAB