Marian Devotion vs. Apparitions

[cath2lic4ever]

Some Protestants like to make a big deal out the Catholic respect afforded to Mary, simply because it’s something they can contort to criticize the Catholic Church and that contorted information get passed around and people start to accept it as truth. The fact is, Mary is a creature, granted a very special creature, but a creature nonetheless and a “human” spirit just like us. She is not a goddess, she is not worshipped and she is not prayed TO. Some people may pray WITH Mary, or ask Mary to pray FOR them, but she is not a deity to which prayer is directed as an end in itself. Mary is venerated, which means she is given the special respect due to a meritorious created person; but she is not adored, i.e. worshipped. There are some Catholics who go WAY overboard with the veneration bit; but that is an issue with them on the individual level, it is not taught or encouraged by the Church. These people are a small minority, though they tend to be pretty visible; and, with a billion Catholics in the world, even a tiny percentage can still be a lot of people.

Nobody has to believe in apparitions, they are considered “private revelation” and are not part of the deposit of faith. When the Church approves one of these things, it does NOT guarantee the authenticity of the event. About all it says, after very careful investigation, is that the apparition does not appear to have been an outright fraud and that the message conveyed by the apparition did not contain doctrinal error; therefore, the Church does not have an issue if people CHOOSE to consider the apparition valid. Like the overwhelming majority of Catholics, I don’t really pay these things too much mind; I simply don’t know and they don’t impact me one way or the other (though, given the number of witnesses “without a dog in the fight,” it would appear that something did indeed happen at Fatima). If you look a the content of the messages that come from the apparitions, they almost exclusively deal with calling people to conversion, prayer and expressing the fact that God is love. To the extent that they have resulted in MANY, MANY, MANY people coming to God, perhaps they do indeed serve a purpose in the divine plan. Who knows?

If I were you, I’d go ahead and start RCIA; nobody will try to convert you, you can stop at any time you wish and no questions will be asked. You’ll get your answers straight from the horse’s mouth and probably have some fun too. Lots of non-Catholics, with no intention of converting, take RCIA just to learn what the Church really teaches. In any case, I think you’ll find that your issue in this area is really a non-issue.

agreed! now let’s all pray together…

hail mary, full of grace.
the LORD is with thee.
blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, JESUS.
holy mary, mother of GOD,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
amen

GOD bless & prayers to all!

 

[VARC]

Nobody has to believe in apparitions, they are considered “private revelation” and are not part of the deposit of faith. When the Church approves one of these things, it does NOT guarantee the authenticity of the event. About all it says, after very careful investigation, is that the apparition does not appear to have been an outright fraud and that the message conveyed by the apparition did not contain doctrinal error; therefore, the Church does not have an issue if people CHOOSE to consider the apparition valid.

Apparitions are very convenient Vatican smokescreen of endorsement. They can approve of the publishing and preaching of the events in local parishes, allow statutes and sermons of the apparitions in church buildings, and even insert feasts of apparitions in the Roman Calendar…but they don’t guarantee the authenticity of the event.

The truth is that if the"infallible" papal magisterium declares that a message does not contain doctrinal error than a Roman catholic is not free to assert that it does. So these approved Marian apparition messages that called for shrines and processions and consecrations of to the Virgin Mary have become de facto Roman catholic dogma. A Roman catholic is not free to object to these practices. Keep that in mind TaliaHudspeth

 

[RC_Matt]

Apparitions are very convenient Vatican smokescreen of endorsement. They can approve of the publishing and preaching of the events in local parishes, allow statutes and sermons of the apparitions in church buildings, and even insert feasts of apparitions in the Roman Calendar…but they don’t guarantee the authenticity of the event.

The truth is that if the"infallible" papal magisterium declares that a message does not contain doctrinal error than a Roman catholic is not free to assert that it does. So these approved Marian apparition messages that called for shrines and processions and consecrations of to the Virgin Mary have become de facto Roman catholic dogma. A Roman catholic is not free to object to these practices. Keep that in mind TaliaHudspeth

LOL, you forgot to mention “whore of Babylon.”

 

[VARC]

LOL, you forgot to mention “whore of Babylon.”

Try not to generalize it makes you look ignorant. I believe the Roman church to be catholic. However, I believe that they have some erroneous views, including Marian excess.

 

[mattkubes]

The truth is that if the"infallible" papal magisterium declares that a message does not contain doctrinal error than a Roman catholic is not free to assert that it does. So these approved Marian apparition messages that called for shrines and processions and consecrations of to the Virgin Mary have become de facto Roman catholic dogma. A Roman catholic is not free to object to these practices. Keep that in mind TaliaHudspeth

How on earth do we go from apparitions being called “worthy of belief” to…an act of papal infallibility on a dogmatic issue? Wow. Non sequitur much? How much more freedom do they have to give us? We don’t have to believe in them at all.

 

[VARC]

How on earth do we go from apparitions being called “worthy of belief” to…an act of papal infallibility on a dogmatic issue? Wow. Non sequitur much? How much more freedom do they have to give us? We don’t have to believe in them at all.

Are Roman catholics free to question the Orthodoxy of consecrations to Mary? I don’t believe that they are. Rome ruled that the request of the apparition was an orthodox expression of the faith. That is the overlap between apparirions and dogma. Not to mention Lourdes. The apparition declared she was the immaculate conception. Once the Vatican ruled that was “worthy of belief”, Ineffabilus Deus was a foregone conclusion. If you not free to reject something as contrary to the faith you are de facto forced to accept it, at least as a possibility.

 

[mattkubes]

Are Roman catholics free to question the Orthodoxy of consecrations to Mary? I don’t believe that they are. Rome ruled that the request of the apparition was an orthodox expression of the faith. That is the overlap between apparirions and dogma. Not to mention Lourdes. The apparition declared she was the immaculate conception. Once the Vatican ruled that was “worthy of belief”, Ineffabilus Deus was a foregone conclusion. If you not free to reject something as contrary to the faith you are de facto forced to accept it, at least as a possibility.

I don’t see why we would question any consecrations to (Jesus through) Mary’s Immaculate Heart…the consecration’s validity is not contingent on the apparition’s.

I think you have the timeline confused. Ineffabilis Deus was given in 1854, then a poor, uneducated girl in rural France started talking about the Immaculate Conception based on an apparition in 1858. But maybe I missed the point you were trying to make.

 

[VARC]

I don’t see why we would question any consecrations to (Jesus through) Mary’s Immaculate Heart…the consecration’s validity is not contingent on the apparition’s…

You didnt answer the question. I’m not asking whether or not you think a Roman catholic should object to Marian consecration but rather are they free to object to the practice.

I think it is more than legitimate to question the consecration of ones body and soul to anyone other than God.

I think you have the timeline confused. Ineffabilis Deus was given in 1854, then a poor, uneducated girl in rural France started talking about the Immaculate Conception based on an apparition in 1858. But maybe I missed the point you were trying to make.

I did have my timelines messed up. Lourdes is a bad example.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I am a Protestant who would be very eager to convert to Catholicism if I could reconcile the issue of the Virgin Mary.

This may be hard for non-converts to understand, but Mary is a MAJOR stumbling block for those of us who were not raised in the Catholic Church. The biggest problem is that we know nothing of her other than she was the mother of Jesus - she is hardly ever mentioned in our world outside of that event.

I have read an article on Patrick Madrid’s Surprised by Truth site, and I can reconcile the information I see about Mary there - that the Co-Redemptrix means she said “yes” to Jesus, etc. To oversimply, that Mary is one of the best (after Jesus) examples of how we are to be as believers.

What I do not understand, and where it seems to me that Mary is being elevated to God-like status, is the Marian apparitions. I don’t understand, from the Fatima apparitions, why a humble woman who seeks to lead us to Jesus would say to consecrate Russia to her - like she would be the one responsible for saving the nation. It seems that in apparitions, Mary is demanding adoration, devotion, laud, etc. for herself by asking for shrines, consecrations, and so forth and claiming that she will convert a certain area.

This seems (to me) out of character for the humble person that Mary is shown to be throughout the gospel narrative, as well as infringing upon God’s right to be the sole object of our adoration and the sole director of salvation.

Can anyone help explain this to me? I know that we Protestants have trouble understanding pious love, but this seems to go beyond those boundaries, and (as I said) is the one stumbling block holding me back from enrolling in my nearest RCIA class.

Thanks so much, and sorry for the novel.

Agreed ​

Catholic doctrine is more important than the alleged apparitions: no apparition, however well-attested, however probably true, however popular, is a source of Catholic teaching.

Apparitions are not doctrines, nor can they be. They have no authority as doctrine, nor are they all free of features which to say the least do not encourage confidence. They are not to be preferred to, or even treated as equal with, or parts of, Divine Revelation: for that has been closed since the Apostles died. The letter to the Galatians is part of revelation; dogmas are; the alleged apparitions at Fatima, like the sillinesses at Medjugorje, certainly are not.

Look instead at what the CC teaches - not at this apparition stuff; even if every apparition ever mentioned were beyond doubt genuinely & totally from God, they would all weigh nothing in comparison with the authentic teaching of the CC.

 

[Rawb]

The immaculate conception was denied by Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, and Bernard among other prominent Roman catholics. Were they spitting on the Blessed Virgin Mary? And since when did God, or even Blessed Mary for that matter, demand that we praise or pray to her. I thought she was the humble haidmaid of the Lord.

I was using an extreme example. It was supposed to represent not giving a queen her due in her own country. Perhaps it would’ve been better to say it’s like refusing to bow to the Queen of England, or wish her well, or something that would show you were disregarding her well being or the respect she deserves as the head of the country you are in. As an American I don’t really know what sort of action could convey that disrespect, but I do know spitting on someone is pretty serious.

The fact is ever Marian dogma proclaimed by the Church is true. If you don’t believe in them, that’s something you’ll have to deal with, not me. As I said on Holy Saturday a year ago, I believe and profess all that the Catholic Church teaches and holds as doctrine or dogma. Amen.

I should join the hook, line, and sinker club.

 

[notsmart]

This is exactly what I was trying to express on another thread of mine.
Can I quote you on it on my thread please?
It may help some posters there.

Agreed ​

Catholic doctrine is more important than the alleged apparitions: no apparition, however well-attested, however probably true, however popular, is a source of Catholic teaching.

Apparitions are not doctrines, nor can they be. They have no authority as doctrine, nor are they all free of features which to say the least do not encourage confidence. They are not to be preferred to, or even treated as equal with, or parts of, Divine Revelation: for that has been closed since the Apostles died. The letter to the Galatians is part of revelation; dogmas are; the alleged apparitions at Fatima, like the sillinesses at Medjugorje, certainly are not.

Look instead at what the CC teaches - not at this apparition stuff; even if every apparition ever mentioned were beyond doubt genuinely & totally from God, they would all weigh nothing in comparison with the authentic teaching of the CC.

 

[churchcamefirst]

Having veneration toward the Blessed Mother is not a “Catholic thing”, She is the mother of Christ. She has converted many non-Catholics in droves.

 

[mattkubes]

Having veneration toward the Blessed Mother is not a “Catholic thing”, She is the mother of Christ. She has converted many non-Catholics in droves.

And obviously it’s always by the grace of the Holy Spirit the people convert, but the apparitions at Guadalupe are an excellent example of this.

 

[churchcamefirst]

And obviously it’s always by the grace of the Holy Spirit the people convert, but the apparitions at Guadalupe are an excellent example of this.

Yes, millions of Aztec Indians were converted…truly a miracle.

 

[notsmart]

I dont think anyone is addressing the question of Marian Devotion VS apparitons.
I don’t think anyone should have a problem with marian devotion.
I think people are well within their rights to question apparitions.
Especially since they are not even required to believe them.

I won’t comment on the conversions accredited to OLG, because I don’t believe a single thing about that particular apparition.
The fact that many conversions came about after the claimed apparition occured is not proof of the apparitions authenticity.

We are talking about people who did not need evidence to believe what they did before they were exposed to Christianity.
Its not as if logic and reason were involved in their faith choices.

 

[peary]

Are Roman catholics free to question the Orthodoxy of consecrations to Mary? I don’t believe that they are. Rome ruled that the request of the apparition was an orthodox expression of the faith. That is the overlap between apparirions and dogma. Not to mention Lourdes. The apparition declared she was the immaculate conception. Once the Vatican ruled that was “worthy of belief”, Ineffabilus Deus was a foregone conclusion. If you not free to reject something as contrary to the faith you are de facto forced to accept it, at least as a possibility.

**It doesn’t matter if Lourdes occured or not. The Church, after 1,858 years, declared that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin on her soul due to the salvific act of Christ, whom she bore in her womb. As a dogma, it must be accepted by the faithful as an intergral part of Faith. In essence, the dogmas about Mary are actually about Christ and a proper understanding of our relationship to Him.

‘Consecration’, according to the dictionary (which also parallels the Catholic understanding of the word) means “a solemn commitment of your life or your time to some cherished purpose (to a service or a goal).” In the case of Mary, it is placing a life of service to others through Christ under her spiritual protection as she is Mother of the Church.

This is a very profound personal act of one’s will but is not required (though highly encouraged) by the Church. As such, it is unnecessary for a Catholic Christian to question the validity of another’s personal devotion to Mary.

The encyclical of 1854 was a summation and declaration of a truth that was believed and upheld within the vast majority of the Church for over a thousand years. The reason for its issuance was due to the theological errors of the time, particularly as a response to certain protestant theologies, which denigrated the role of Mary as Mother of the Church and, hence, as Mother of all Christians.**

 

[cath2lic4ever]

Yes, millions of Aztec Indians were converted…truly a miracle.

as most non-catholic christian would say “where is that in the bible?”. being a catholic is already a miracle to me. GOD bless & prayers to all!

 

[TaliaHudspeth]

Thanks to everyone for your replies here.

Like I said, unless you were raised Protestant (I’m a Southern Baptist) its hard to understand. If I enter RCIA, I run the risk of being “damned to hell” by the people with whom I currently go to church. These are the ones who think the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, etc.

I can acutely feel my soul on the line here - I’m terrified that a misstep will mean I’ve been misled one way or the other. That’s why I’m trying to hard to make sure I can be 100% in accord with the beliefs and teachings of the Catholic Church before I move forward. I want to be completely educated and know that I am doing the right thing, not entering a cult as my SB friends say.

If it wouldn’t be too forward, I would like to ask all of you to pray for me that God leads me into the right place. I can only hope that He wouldn’t send someone to hell who is trying so hard to please Him in this day and age of misleading teachings, false prophets, etc.

 

[Jimdandy]

Talia,

I pray that Our Lady will take you by the hand and lead you to her Son.

All Mary desires is that you love God, knowing that love will enable you to love others-

The Holy Spirit will enlighten you and guide you.

May God Bless you always

 

[Jimdandy]

A Prayer
by St. Pio of Pietrelcina

    May your heart always be
    the temple of the Holy Spirit.
    May Jesus always be the helmsman
    of your little spiritual ship.
    May Mary be the star
    which shines on your path 
    and may she show you
    the safe way
    to reach the Heavenly Father. 
            Amen