Marian Dogma .... required or emotional attachment?

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Penitent:
You know, maybe we just have different meanings for the word “devotion” and that’s where our differences lay (which is what I hope because I’m certain you can’t possibly mean no Catholic without a devotion [my definition] to Mary is not getting into heaven]). If devotion to you means wearing something, pledging something, consecrating something, praying something every single day at the expense of taking those moments to be with Christ, if that’s what your definition is, than no, I beg to differ–even with your slew of quotes above…however, devotion under my definition, as stated over and over above and PM’d, well then yes, I’d agree.

So what exactly is your definition of “devotion”?

Penitent
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It is in fact one of the Acts of our Faith to believe in and Give assention to the doctrines and Dogmas of the Church am I correct? So, therefore in this we are Devoted to the Church the way that Christ commanded us to be, and thereby in doing this, in being devoted and ascending to the Motehr Church we are then ascending also to the Lord in Heaven by his command. I am correct in this am I right?

Therefore by defintion assention the Visible Church is also assention to the Lord, and the Lord said that whtsoever the Church, by the Seat of Peter shall bind in loose on earth shall also be bound and loosed in heaven and Hell, and I am correct here I am not?

Therefore if the Church has said that it is a matter of assention to believe in and in a normal manner devote ourselves to the Mother and that in their Her Teachings that bear the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur of the Catholic Church have stated that assention to these beliefs is required and that therefore the Teachings themselves then state that Yes she is indeed part of our Salvation, then I would again be right, in advising a Catholic that believes that believes that assention to beliefs is not essential to their Salvation that it is most definitely essential to their Salvation.

This is not a matter of conscience, this is not a matter of “am I emotionally attached to the Mother or not”, this is in fact an assention issue to the Doctrines and Dogmas of the Church, it does not involve a matter of morals.

Now if you truly wish to me to go directly against Church Teaching on the matter then I cannot in anyway, shape or form, do that simply because it may or may not be a little hard for someone to deal with at times to find out that they are truly incorrect about an aspect of the Church’s Teachings.

The Teachings on Mary are not simply Traditions, and they are NOT matters of maorals they are in fact Dogmatic in the constitution of the Church, and therefore require complete assention fo all the Lay Faithful and because of their Dogmatic Status are no longer up for any debate on them whatsoever…That is as good as the Church saying these Teachings can never be touched by anyone ever again not one iota of them. Now the fact remians that it is a Teaching and it is DOGMA that the Blessed Mother is also in conjuncton with her Son a Mediatrix …Now it is on you to believe what you will … I accept the Church’s Teachings and realize that this meanings that SHE MOST DEFINITELY PLYS A PART IN THE SALVATION OF SOULS…

Pax Christi
Debi
 
Debi,

Thank you for trying to help me understand this issue. I do realize there are volumes written on this subject. I could not call myself a catholic in training if I do not adhere to what the church teaches. I try to the best of my ability to behave accordingly. I have not flatly refused the idea of communion with Mary, though it is close to that. I pray that God understands my inability to go through someone else to get to Him and His son, if this is in fact required. I also pray on a regular basis to remain open to anything He wants me to understand. That being said, while I do not believe in the concept of sola scriptura, I do know that we, as Catholics rely on the Bible to justify many beliefs. It spells out many things leaving no doubt about the meanings. Why would something as critical as Marian devotion being essential to our our eternal salvation, which God desires for us all, not be spelled out and emphasized as clearly?

Sherilo
 
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sherilo:
Debi,

Thank you for trying to help me understand this issue. I do realize there are volumes written on this subject. I could not call myself a catholic in training if I do not adhere to what the church teaches. I try to the best of my ability to behave accordingly. I have not flatly refused the idea of communion with Mary, though it is close to that. I pray that God understands my inability to go through someone else to get to Him and His son, if this is in fact required. I also pray on a regular basis to remain open to anything He wants me to understand. That being said, while I do not believe in the concept of sola scriptura, I do know that we, as Catholics rely on the Bible to justify many beliefs. It spells out many things leaving no doubt about the meanings. Why would something as critical as Marian devotion being essential to our our eternal salvation, which God desires for us all, not be spelled out and emphasized as clearly?

Sherilo
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Ok If you want help that will lay Scripturally what we believe then I suggest you take the time to look here … and study these sections … hopefully this will help you …

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

The first one is to the understanding of the Saints and Intercessorship as it is written in the Bible and how we can justify it’s usage … As Well Verneration …

The second is to a better understanding of our Mother and her role in the Bible and the misconceptiopns that are brought fourth by others and how we understand them to be …

It also shares with you the Early Church Father’s understanding and quotations from their writings as well on the bottom of both of these sections so that you can better assess how we have come to the beliefs we have today and that they have been constant within the Church …

I hope that this helps you …

Please remember that Tradtition and Sacred Scriptura within the Church may never contradict one another … each is used to prove the other useful and beneficial …
 
Now the fact remians that it is a Teaching and it is DOGMA that the Blessed Mother is also in conjuncton with her Son a Mediatrix …Now it is on you to believe what you will … I accept the Church’s Teachings and realize that this meanings that SHE MOST DEFINITELY PLYS A PART IN THE SALVATION OF SOULS…
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I need to correct this …

It is in fact a DOCTRINE of the Church, which still requires our complete assention as the Lay Faithful, that the Blessed Mother in conjunction with her Son does PLAY A PART IN THE SALVATION OF SOULS…
 

MARY HAS ROLE IN JESUS’ SAVING MISSION
Pope John Paul II​

Simeon’s prediction that a sword would pierce Mary’s heart was fulfilled at the foot of the Cross, when she was closely united to her son’s sacrifice
“Beginning with Simeon’s prophecy, Mary intensely and mysteriously unites her life with Christ’s sorrowful mission: she was to become her Son’s faithful co-worker for the salvation of the human race”, the Holy Father said at the General Audience of Wednesday, 18 December 1996, reflecting on the significance of Simeon’s predictions at the Presentation in the temple. Here is a translation of his catechesis, which was the 40th in the series on the Blessed Mother and was given in Italian.
  1. After recognizing in Jesus “a light for revelation to the Gentiles” (Lk 2:32), Simeon announces to Mary the great trial to which the Messiah is called and reveals her participation in that sorrowful destiny.
His reference to the redeeming sacrifice, absent at the Annunciation, has shown in Simeon’s prophecy almost a “second Annunciation” (Redemptoris Mater, n. 16), which will lead the Virgin to a deeper understanding of her Son’s mystery.

Simeon, who up to that moment had addressed all those present, blessing Joseph and Mary in particular, now prophesies to the Virgin alone that she will share in her Son’s destiny. Inspired by the Holy Spirit, he announces to her: “Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed” (Lk 2:34-35).

Mary’s maternal suffering would reach culmination in the Passion
  1. These words foretell a future of suffering for the Messiah. He is, in fact, “the sign of contradiction”, destined to meet harsh opposition on the part of his contemporaries. But alongside Christ’s suffering Simeon sets the vision of Mary’s heart pierced by the sword, thus uniting the Mother with the sorrowful destiny of her Son.
In this way, while the venerable old man foresees the growing hostility the Messiah will face, he stresses its repercussion on the Mother’s heart. This maternal suffering will culminate in the Passion, when she will unite with her Son in his redemptive sacrifice.

Following an allusion to the first songs of the Servant of the Lord (cf. Is 42:6; 49:6), cited in Luke 2:32, Simeon’s words remind us of the prophecy of the Suffering Servant (Is 52:13; 53:12), who, " wounded for our transgressions" (Is 53:5), “makes himself an offering for sin” (Is 53:10) through a personal and spiritual sacrifice which far exceeds the ancient ritual sacrifices.

Here we can note how Simeon’s prophecy allows us to glimpse in Mary’s future suffering a unique likeness to the sorrowful future of the “Servant”.
  1. Mary and Joseph are astounded when Simeon proclaims Jesus as a “light for revelation to the Gentiles” (Lk 2:32). Mary, instead, with reference to the prophecy of the sword that would pierce her heart, says nothing. Together with Joseph, she accepts in silence those mysterious words which predict a deeply sorrowful trial and situate the Presentation of Jesus in the temple in its most authentic meaning.
Indeed, according to the divine plan the sacrifice offered then “according to what is said in the law of the Lord, 'a pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons’” (Lk 2:24), prefigured the sacrifice of Jesus, “for I am gentle and lowly in heart” (Mt 11:29); in it the true “presentation” would be made (cf. Lk 2:22), which would see the Mother associated with her Son in the work of Redemption.

Mary was to share in her Son’s saving mission
  1. Simeon’s prophecy is followed by the meeting with the prophetess Anna: “She gave thanks to God, and spoke of him to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem” (Lk 2:38). The faith and prophetic wisdom of the old woman who nurtures the expectation of the Messiah by “worshipping with fasting and prayer night and day” (Lk 2:37), offer the Holy Family a further incentive to put their hope in the God of Israel. At this particular moment, Anna’s behaviour would have appeared to Mary and Joseph as a sign from the Lord, a message of enlightened faith and persevering service.
Beginning with Simeon’s prophecy, Mary intensely and mysteriously unites her life with Christ’s sorrowful mission: she was to become her Son’s faithful coworker for the salvation of the human race.
Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
1 January 1997, page 11
L’Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
 

DEVOTION TO MARY IS BASED ON JESUS’ WILL
Pope John Paul II​

May all discover in his words ‘Behold, your mother!’ the invitation to accept the blessed Virgin as mother and respond to her as true children
“The words, ‘Behold, your mother!’, express Jesus’ intention to inspire in his disciples an attitude of love for and trust in Mary, leading them to recognize her as their mother, the mother of every believer”, the Holy Father said at the General Audience on Wednesday, 7 May. The Pope was continuing his catechesis on the role of the Blessed Mother, focusing this time on her spiritual motherhood. Here is a translation of his reflection, which was the 50th in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.
  1. After entrusting John to Mary with the words “Woman, behold your son!”, Jesus, from the Cross, turns to his beloved disciple, saving to him, “Behold, your mother!” (Jn 19:26-27). With these words, he reveals to Mary the height of her motherhood: as mother of the Saviour, she is also the mother of the redeemed, of all the members of the Mystical Body of her Son.
In silence the Virgin accepts the elevation to this highest degree of her motherhood of grace, having already given a response of faith with her “yes” at the Annunciation.

Jesus not only urges John to care for Mary with special love, but he entrusts her to him so that he may recognize her as his own mother.

During the Last Supper, “the disciple whom Jesus loved” listened to the Master’s commandment: “Love one another as I have loved you” (Jn 15:12) and, leaning his head against the Lord’s breast, he received from him a unique sign of love. Such experiences prepared him better to perceive in Jesus’ words an invitation to accept her who had been given him as mother and to love her as Jesus did with filial affection.

May all discover in Jesus’ words: “Behold, your mother!”, the invitation to accept Mary as mother, responding to her motherly love as true children.

The Blessed Virgin teaches us to love the Lord deeply
  1. In the light of this entrustment to his beloved disciple, one can understand the authentic meaning of Marian devotion in the ecclesial community. In fact, it places Christians in Jesus’ filial relationship to his mother, putting them in a condition to grow in intimacy with both of them.
The Church’s devotion to the Virgin is not only the fruit of a spontaneous response to the exceptional value of her person and the importance of her role in the work of salvation, but is based on Christ’s will.

The words “Behold, your mother!”, express Jesus’ intention to inspire in his disciples an attitude of love for and trust in Mary, leading them to recognize her as their mother, the mother of every believer.

At the school of the Virgin, the disciples learn to know the Lord deeply, as John did, and to have an intimate and lasting relationship of love with him. They also discover the joy of entrusting themselves to the Mother’s maternal love, living like affectionate and docile children.

The history of Christian piety teaches that Mary is the way which leads to Christ and that filial devotion to her takes nothing from intimacy with Jesus; indeed, it increases it and leads to the highest levels of perfection.

The countless Marian shrines throughout the world testify to the marvels wrought by grace through the intercession of Mary, Mother of the Lord and our Mother.

Turning to her, drawn by her tenderness, the men and women of our time also meet Jesus, Saviour and Lord of their lives.

Above all, the poor, tried in heart, in their affections and in their material need, find refuge and peace in the Mother of God, and discover that for all people true riches consist in the grace of conversion and of following Christ.

Every Christian should make room for Mary in his daily life
  1. According to the original Greek, the Gospel text continues: “From that hour the disciple took her among his possessions” (Jn 19:27), thus stressing John’s ready and generous adherence to Jesus’ words and informing us about his behaviour for the whole of his life as the faithful guardian and docile son of the Virgin.
The hour of acceptance is that of the fulfilment of the work of salvation. Mary’s spiritual motherhood and the first manifestation of the new link between her and the Lord’s disciples begins precisely in this context.

John took the Mother “among his possessions”. These rather general words seem to highlight his initiative, full of respect and love, not only in taking Mary to his house but also in living his spiritual life in communion with her.

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In fact, a literal translation of the Greek expression “among his possessions” does not so much refer to material possessions since John—as St Augustine observes (In Ioan. Evang. tract. 119, 3)—“possessed nothing of his own”, but rather to the spiritual goods or gifts received from Christ: grace (Jn 1:16), the Word (Jn 12:48; 17:8), the Spirit (Jn 7:39; 14:17), the Eucharist (Jn 6:32-58)… Among these gifts which come to him from the fact that he is loved by Jesus, the disciple accepts Mary as his mother, establishing a profound communion of life with her (cf. Redemptoris Mater, n. 45, note 130).

May every Christian, after the beloved disciple’s example, “take Mary into his house” and make room for her in his own daily life, recognizing her providential role in the journey of salvation.
Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
14 May 1997, page 11
L’Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
 

**CHURCH URGES FAITHFUL TO VENERATE MARY ** Pope John Paul II​

The Second Vatican Council exhorted the Church’s members to promote the various forms of Marian piety, especially liturgical devotion to Our Lady
The veneration of the Virgin Mary was the subject of the Holy Father’s catechesis at the General Audience of Wednesday, 29 October. Quoting the Second Vatican Council, the Pope urged that “the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and that the practices and exercises of devotion towards her, recommended by the teaching authority of the Church in the course of centuries, be highly esteemed”. Here is a translation of his catechesis, which was the 68th in the series on the Blessed Mother and was given in Italian.
  1. After giving doctrinal justification to veneration of the Blessed Virgin, the Second Vatican Council exhorts all the faithful to promote it: “The Sacred Synod teaches this Catholic doctrine advisedly and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and that the practices and exercises of devotion towards her, recommended by the teaching authority of the Church in the course of centuries, be highly esteemed” (Lumen gentium, n. 67).
With this last statement the Council Fathers, without going into particulars, intended to reaffirm the validity of certain prayers such as the Rosary and the Angelus, dear to the tradition of the Christian people and frequently encouraged by the Supreme Pontiffs as an effective means of nourishing the life of faith and devotion to the Blessed Virgin.

Nicaea II affirmed the veneration of sacred images
  1. The conciliar text goes on to ask believers “that those decrees, which were given in the early days regarding the veneration of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed” (Lumen gentium, n. 67).
Thus it reproposes the decisions of the Second Council of Nicaea, held in 787, which confirmed the legitimacy of the veneration of sacred images in opposition to those who wished to destroy them, since they considered them inadequate for representing the divinity (cf. Redemptoris Mater, n. 33).

“We define”, said the Fathers of that Council, “with full precision and care that, like the representation of the precious life-giving Cross, so the venerated and holy images either painted or mosaic or made of any other suitable material, should be exposed in holy churches of God on sacred furnishings and vestments, on walls and panels in homes and streets, be they images of the Lord God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, or of our immaculate Lady, the Holy Mother of God, of the holy angels, or of all the saints and the just” (DS 600).

By recalling this definition, Lumen gentium intended to stress the legitimacy and validity of sacred images, in contrast to certain tendencies to remove them from churches and shrines in order to focus full attention on Christ.
  1. The Second Council of Nicaea does not only affirm the legitimacy of images, but seeks to describe their usefulness for Christian piety: “Indeed, the more often these images are contemplated, the more those who look at them are brought to remember and desire the original models and, in kissing them, to show them respect and veneration” (DS 601).
These directives apply in a particular way to the veneration of the Blessed Virgin. Images, icons and statues of Our Lady, present in houses, public places and countless churches and chapels, help the faithful to invoke her constant presence and her merciful patronage in the various circumstances of life. By making the Blessed Virgin’s motherly tenderness concrete and almost visible, they invite us to turn to her, to pray to her trustfully and to imitate her in generously accepting the divine will.

None of the known images is an authentic reproduction of Mary’s face, as St Augustine had already acknowledged (De Trinitate, 8, 7); however they help us establish a more living relationship with her. Therefore the practice of exposing images of Mary in places of worship and in other buildings should be encouraged, in order to be aware of her help in moments of difficulty and as a reminder to lead a life that is ever more holy and faithful to God.
 
  1. To encourage the proper use of sacred images, the Council of Nicaea recalls that “the honour paid to the image is really paid to the person it represents, and those who venerate the image are venerating the reality of the person it represents” (DS 601).
Hence in adoring the Person of the Incarnate Word in the image of Christ the faithful are making a genuine act of worship, which has nothing in common with idolatry.

Similarly, when he venerates images of Mary, the believer’s act is ultimately intended as a tribute to the person of the Mother of Jesus.
  1. Therefore, the Second Vatican Council urges theologians and preachers to refrain from both exaggerating and minimizing the special dignity of the Mother of God. It adds: “Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin, which always refer to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and devotion” (Lumen gentium, n. 67).
Marian devotion stems from faith and filial love

Authentic Marian doctrine is ensured by fidelity to Scripture and Tradition, as well as to the liturgical texts and the Magisterium. Its indispensable characteristic is the reference to Christ: everything in Mary derives from Christ and is directed to him.
  1. Lastly, the Council offers believers several criteria for authentically living their filial relationship with Mary: “Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile nor transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to recognize the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love towards our Mother and to the imitation of her virtues” (Lumen gentium, n. 67).
With these words, the Council Fathers put people on guard against “vain credulity” and the predominance of sentiment. They aim above all at reaffirming authentic Marian devotion, which proceeds from faith and the loving recognition of Mary’s dignity, fosters filial affection for her and inspires the firm resolution to imitate her virtues.
Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
5 November 1997, page 7
L’Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
 
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MysticRose:
SHE MOST DEFINITELY PLYS A PART IN THE SALVATION OF SOULS…

Pax Christi
Debi
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And as far as I can tell, you’re singing to the choir…and yet I can’t help but wonder what you, in your own belief, would consider an “adequate” devotion to the Blessed Mother. I consider what I do just fine and dandy according to the way I understand the Catechism (and as explained to me by people whom I know, trust, love, and obey when it’s my obligation)…

Penitent
 
Debi,

Thanks for the Scripture references. Looks like I’ve got some more reading to do.

Sherilo
 
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MysticRose:
Now if you truly wish to me to go directly against Church Teaching on the matter then I cannot in anyway, shape or form, do that simply because it may or may not be a little hard for someone to deal with at times to find out that they are truly incorrect about an aspect of the Church’s Teachings.
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Apparently you and I are just two of those people in the virtual world who are not able to communicate with each other, because I can’t see how you could make the above statement–and I can assure you, no matter how many copy/pastes of statements you put, you won’t sway me either.

So I’m bowing out of this discussion at this point in time, perfectly secure in my knowledge that I am certainly doing nothing in opposition of the Magisterium as included laid out in the Catechism.

Penitent
 
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Penitent:
Apparently you and I are just two of those people in the virtual world who are not able to communicate with each other, because I can’t see how you could make the above statement–and I can assure you, no matter how many copy/pastes of statements you put, you won’t sway me either.

So I’m bowing out of this discussion at this point in time, perfectly secure in my knowledge that I am certainly doing nothing in opposition of the Magisterium as included laid out in the Catechism.

Penitent
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I never said that YOU, Penitent were did I, so therefore there should not have been a problem to begin with.

I was talking to another poster that in agreeing with you, also did in fact say that their Salvation DID NOT rest on their acceptance of said Doctrines and Dogmas as presented by the Church, therefore I was correct to that poster posting to the effect that it was essential to a Catholic the acceptances of said Doctrines and Dogmas of the Church…

YOU on the other hand participate in the regular devotion to Mary, which is within the confines of the requirement of the Church and therefore because of this you fall well within the assention to the Magesterium’s required teaching od Assention on the issue …

YOU, are the one that because another poster agreed, IN PART, with what you said, due to the feelings that YOU expressed, and that validly you should probaly qualify that although you do feel this way and although you personally worship in this manner by your own choosing, is NOT a recommended course of action by the Church and that it is heavily recommended by the Church to participate in the ADoration and Veneration of Our Mother, thereby My Brother not encouraging those that are either New to the Church or poorly Catechized to misunderstand you and your intent as something otehr than what it is and that you do in fact hold to the minimum requirement held by the Church … therefore you do fulfill your your obligation to our Mother and to the Lord in this matter …

This is the distinction that YOU are failing to see, and instead you are arguing with me as though I am wrong to encourage other’s to enter into something that the Church Herself encourage’s openly and freely and that our Holy Father JPII has officially declared the Whole of the Church in Venerable supplication to with His proclamation of Totus Tuus…

“The Pope, at the beginning of his episcopal service in St. Peter’s Chair in Rome, wishes to entrust the Church particularly to her in whom there was accomplished the stupendous and complete victory of good over evil, of love over hatred, of grace over sin; to her of whom Paul VI said that she is ’ the beginning of the better world;’ to the Blessed Virgin. He entrusts to her himself, as the servant of servants, and all those whom he serves, all those who serve with him. He entrusts to her the Roman Church, as token and principle of all the churches in the world, in their universal unity. He entrusts it to her and offers it to her as her property.”

Although I have encouraged people in this thread that the activity of private devotion to the Mother only enriches them I have not said that it is necessary or something that the Church requires, my contention th whole time though has been that as in all of our Doctrines and Dogmas it is not necessary to have an emotional attachment to something to assent to it as is required of us as Catholics …Since I have properly shown this in the CCC and I have shown that it is not only Doctrine bu also essential Dogma of the Church and therefore requires Assention of all the Lay Faithful to devote ourselves to the Teachings in one form or anotehr I do not understand what your insistance is that I am wrong, when according to everything that the Church Teaches, the CCC and the Canons of the Church and even Christ Himself by his teachings that we are to obey the Church … I am then dipensing only what is taught by the Church and advocating the Truth …
 
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sherilo:
Debi,

Thanks for the Scripture references. Looks like I’ve got some more reading to do.

Sherilo
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Sherilo,
You are very Welcome for the information and I will be glad to help you in any manner necessary… Please do not hesitate to ask any questions of me that you come up with in your reasearch even if they would appear to be silly or just plain nutty … 😃 … I had a lot of questions myself …

Please disregard the argument you see me having with Penitent it is merely one of constant miscommunication between the two of us because I think Penitent believes I am saying one thing when I am saying something completely different and is quick to jump on a post before rereading it at times … He really means no harm, and is actually from what I can tell from my PM conversations with him highly devoted to the Church and Her Teachings… All of them.

What often happens though is in being taught from different people and in different ways some people place more emphasis on certain things when we are being taught … therefore, we learn different aspects of it differently or to place more emphasis in one area as opposed to another… That is why the Church highly recommends that along with Her guidance we also read for ourselves the Teachings of the Church … We have been referred to as a thinking Church in the words of Cardinal Sin…

We are encouraged to think and to contemplate instead of just blindly adhering so that we know that the knowledge that we are assenting to is Truthful in the first place. Now you keep on seeing me say things about assention, and we are required to assent to the Doctrines and Dogmas and Traditions of the Church even when we do not agree to them, because it is belieed that with proper understanding by our furthering of our education on the subject and with the asking of questions of our Priests and Bishops and personal study into the subject that the assention that we do now in complete Faith will be rewarded with a better understanding in the future. But, as the Lord has told us the Church is the final Authority here on Earth because such power He did give unto them, so therefore, until such time as we have attained that understanding we do assent to these things in the knowledge that whether here and now or later after we have attained our Salvation we will be rewarded with the knowledge that we have sought after in diligence.

We as Catholics do understand though, that although we believe that Faith is NOT based in an absence there are factors of our Faith that re and will be based in Mystery until that time and for each of us this understanding level is different while we are here on earth …
 
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Penitent:
And as far as I can tell, you’re singing to the choir…and yet I can’t help but wonder what you, in your own belief, would consider an “adequate” devotion to the Blessed Mother. I consider what I do just fine and dandy according to the way I understand the Catechism (and as explained to me by people whom I know, trust, love, and obey when it’s my obligation)…

Penitent
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Penitent I have answerd this question continually throughout this thread… Although I CHOOSE to enter into private devotion to My Mother that does not mean that my defintion of Devotion of the Mother is any more than what the CCC brings forth… But we do look to our Church Fathers Past and Present for the accuracy of what this Devotion is supposed to mean to the Church as a whole and what is the recommendation to the Church and all of it’s Faithful… We should in this take what they say especially our past and present Popes who sit in the Chair of Peter seriously in their recommendation to us, and pay close heed to their advice in such matters of the Faith …

I have found that such men, have greater wisdom than I ever could have because of their close relationship with the Holy Mother and God and therefore know of the effect to me more prominently and because of their daily reflection hours of prayer guidance that does come directly from the Holy Spirit, and constant drive and meditation on such matters I believe that they are guided to the betterment of the whole Church in their thought … Who am I, a simple Lay Person, to say that I now have more knowledge than they do when they are guided directly by GOD Himself?
 
Well MysticRose, I am sure YOU will need to excuse ME because YOU are obviously the number ONE source in all of this and of course I BOW down to YOU and your knowledge.

<—really gone for good this time…I can get ALL CAPPED in real voices in my own home–>LOL

Penitent
 
As we begin to approach the holy season of Lent, it is also the time of year when many people make or remake their Marian consecration. Some use the 33 day formula of St. Lousi de Montfort or it could be as St. Maximilian formulated. In thinking of this for myself, I read these thoughts on Marian consecration from St. Maximilian and from the de Montfort fathers and wished to share them with you too.
Ave Maria!
Catechism on Marian Consecration
48. WHAT EXACTLY DOES “CONSECRATE” MEAN?
When something or someone is said to be consecrated, this means it is set apart by God for his exclusive use; it becomes holy. The word comes from the Latin consecrare: con-together + secrare-sacred.

We were all consecrated at Baptism when the priest poured holy water on our heads and baptized us “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” That is, we were “set apart” for the Holy Trinity. We are changed forever and pledged to the exclusive service of God, by God.

However, baptismal consecration represents only the germ of consecration. God has chosen us to a lifetime of Christian holiness, and “his call is irrevocable” (Rom 11:29). But God does not do anything in us or to us without our cooperation. We must continually give ourselves to God, to ask for, and to seek, holiness on a daily basis, until it becomes a natural habit that lasts a lifetime.
  1. WHY SHOULD WE CONSECRATE OURSELVES TO MARY? God willed that Mary would have a special role in our Christian life when he gave her to us as our spiritual mother at the foot of the Cross (In 19:27). It is a universal role assigned to her by God: All Christians of every age are to “take her into his home”-into our hearts, minds and every aspect of our lives. This is why we pray to her and through her, asking for her assistance.
In perfect union with her Son and subordinate to him, Mary is called by the Second Vatican Council “our mother in the order of grace” (Lumen Gentium, no. 61). Mary became the prototype of total consecration when, at the beginning of the New Testament, she said “yes” to becoming the Mother of God (Lk 1 :37). She was chosen to help us in our consecration through her maternal intercession as Mediatrix of All Graces, thus disposing us to develop the gifts of God that we received in Baptism. As such, Mary will enlighten your mind, guide your will, empower your efforts and intercede for you in a special way before the throne of the Father.

Finally, in her perfect spiritual sensitivity to the Holy Spirit’s inspiration as the Immaculate Conception and “Spouse of the Spirit,” she is the “Daughter of the Father” - his creaturely masterpiece prepared by him for all eternity to be the tabernacle of the Living God. By linking our lives to the Immaculata’s through total consecration, taught Maximilian, we too become channels of grace and “spouses” of the Holy Spirit, “overshadowed by the power of the Most High” (Lk 1:35). Like Mary, we become intimately united to the Ttinity and powerful co-redeemers with Jesus in bringing about the salvation of the world.
  1. DOES MARIAN CONSECRATION TAKE AWAY FROM MY RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS? On the contrary, consecration to Mary heightens the depth of our commitment to Christ. It is a way to express explic*itly that our ultimate goal and end is God.
St. Maximilian made it very clear that Marian consecration does not stop at Mary: "In reality, we are entirely, completely and exclusively consecrated to the Immaculata; in her and through her entirely, completely and exclusively to the Lord Jesus; in him, finally and through him entirely, completely and exclusively to our Father in heaven." And also, “Devotion to Mary is a direct means to this end. We pass with Mary to the Other.”

By consecrating ourselves to Mary, she will always point us to the heart of Jesus, for "her will is so perfect that in nothing does it differ from God’s." Marian consecration thus becomes the ideal way to fulfill our baptismal promises, which we renewed at our Confirmation. Maximilian summarized our Christian mission in the beautiful expression: “To win the world for the Immaculata, and as soon as possible.”

As Vatican II teaches, calling upon Mary’s intercession “does nor hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Christ, but on the contrary fosters it.” (Lumen Gentium, no. 60). Therefore, coming “to Jesus through Mary” through our Marian consecration is not an extraordinary way of worshipping God and bringing about our final sanctifica*tion - it is the best way!
 
Ave Maria!:
As we begin to approach the holy season of Lent, it is also the time of year when many people make or remake their Marian consecration. Some use the 33 day formula of St. Lousi de Montfort or it could be as St. Maximilian formulated. In thinking of this for myself, I read these thoughts on Marian consecration from St. Maximilian and from the de Montfort fathers and wished to share them with you too.
Ave Maria!
Catechism on Marian Consecration
48. WHAT EXACTLY DOES “CONSECRATE” MEAN?
When something or someone is said to be consecrated, this means it is set apart by God for his exclusive use; it becomes holy. The word comes from the Latin consecrare: con-together + secrare-sacred.

We were all consecrated at Baptism when the priest poured holy water on our heads and baptized us “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” That is, we were “set apart” for the Holy Trinity. We are changed forever and pledged to the exclusive service of God, by God.

However, baptismal consecration represents only the germ of consecration. God has chosen us to a lifetime of Christian holiness, and “his call is irrevocable” (Rom 11:29). But God does not do anything in us or to us without our cooperation. We must continually give ourselves to God, to ask for, and to seek, holiness on a daily basis, until it becomes a natural habit that lasts a lifetime.
  1. WHY SHOULD WE CONSECRATE OURSELVES TO MARY? God willed that Mary would have a special role in our Christian life when he gave her to us as our spiritual mother at the foot of the Cross (In 19:27). It is a universal role assigned to her by God: All Christians of every age are to “take her into his home”-into our hearts, minds and every aspect of our lives. This is why we pray to her and through her, asking for her assistance.
In perfect union with her Son and subordinate to him, Mary is called by the Second Vatican Council “our mother in the order of grace” (Lumen Gentium, no. 61). Mary became the prototype of total consecration when, at the beginning of the New Testament, she said “yes” to becoming the Mother of God (Lk 1 :37). She was chosen to help us in our consecration through her maternal intercession as Mediatrix of All Graces, thus disposing us to develop the gifts of God that we received in Baptism. As such, Mary will enlighten your mind, guide your will, empower your efforts and intercede for you in a special way before the throne of the Father.

Finally, in her perfect spiritual sensitivity to the Holy Spirit’s inspiration as the Immaculate Conception and “Spouse of the Spirit,” she is the “Daughter of the Father” - his creaturely masterpiece prepared by him for all eternity to be the tabernacle of the Living God. By linking our lives to the Immaculata’s through total consecration, taught Maximilian, we too become channels of grace and “spouses” of the Holy Spirit, “overshadowed by the power of the Most High” (Lk 1:35). Like Mary, we become intimately united to the Ttinity and powerful co-redeemers with Jesus in bringing about the salvation of the world.
  1. DOES MARIAN CONSECRATION TAKE AWAY FROM MY RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS? On the contrary, consecration to Mary heightens the depth of our commitment to Christ. It is a way to express explic*itly that our ultimate goal and end is God.
St. Maximilian made it very clear that Marian consecration does not stop at Mary: "In reality, we are entirely, completely and exclusively consecrated to the Immaculata; in her and through her entirely, completely and exclusively to the Lord Jesus; in him, finally and through him entirely, completely and exclusively to our Father in heaven." And also, “Devotion to Mary is a direct means to this end. We pass with Mary to the Other.”

By consecrating ourselves to Mary, she will always point us to the heart of Jesus, for "her will is so perfect that in nothing does it differ from God’s." Marian consecration thus becomes the ideal way to fulfill our baptismal promises, which we renewed at our Confirmation. Maximilian summarized our Christian mission in the beautiful expression: “To win the world for the Immaculata, and as soon as possible.”

As Vatican II teaches, calling upon Mary’s intercession “does nor hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Christ, but on the contrary fosters it.” (Lumen Gentium, no. 60). Therefore, coming “to Jesus through Mary” through our Marian consecration is not an extraordinary way of worshipping God and bringing about our final sanctifica*tion - it is the best way!
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I am so happy to see that someone understands the concept of the Mother in the Church …

I come from another forum where she is attacked continually so to see that our own Brethren attack our own beliefs is to me in my opinion horrid.

I can understand that some have a hard time understanding the concepts, but I do not understand the out and out denial of of our Faith. It is a Part of our Faith and an Article of our Faith that we believe in the Mother of the Church … We do NOT have to engage in Marian Devotion if we do not wish, this is a point so relevane to us all.

But, At the same time why would someone NOT want to engage in this type of Intecession if the Lord Himself believes it is fitting to do so?
This is made quite clear in 1 Tim 2:1-3
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 ** For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;**

And to give the meaning of the Greel word there of intercessions I will refer to the Strong’s defintiion

G1783
ἔντευξις
enteuxis
ent’-yook-sis
From G1793;** an interview, that is, (specifically) supplication: - intercession, prayer.**

This is exhorting us as infallble human beings to intercessions and prayer for one another … how much more so effective then is it to ask the entire Body of those tat are alive in Christ, as in the whole Mystical Body of Believer son earth and In Heaven to help us in prayer?

Continuaously it says that there is only one mediator between the Father and men and that is Christ Himself and that is true, I do not dispute this… But let us think about this for just a minute in a logical sense. If the Only mediator we had at all period was Christ at our disposal then what happens to the Holy Spirit who Himself is God? Why then was he sent by Christ to be a mediator between the Church and the Him? This alone disporves the theory that there is only one mediator for all of mankind… What there is, is only one mediator between the Father and Us and that is Christ Himself …

Our belief in the Saints has been a mainstay that has been essential throughout the History of the Church … It can be Biblically and Traditionally proven… The use of them ONLY enhances our relationship with the Lord not takes away from it, as I believe so many have been taught to believe. As I was taught to believe at one time.

If I remember correctly I started this thread because I saw that another apologist answered a question asked by someone that said it was not required to believe in Mary. The fact is that the Marian Doctrines and Dogmas are required beliefs in the Church, what is not required in the Church is Marian devotion although it is heavily stressed that it is beneficial to us all.

I ask this, if one can accept the Marian doctrines and Dogmas then why is it such a stretch to then also ask Mary to intercede on your behalf? Do you ask other humans to pray for you? And if you do then why do you have the problem of accepting that a Saint in Heaven can also pray for you if you ask?

Why would you have a problem accepting that she can dispense Graces? If this is what God wills her to do and therefore without God she does nothing of her own accord, then is she not then working still in cooperative Grace with the Lord the same way that we do? How does one believe that we can be used, as fallible humn beings, but not those in Heaven? That is an illogical premise to say the least.

Who was it that said that we can save not only ourselves but our hearers? And that this is Righteous and shows Glory to the Lord? If we believe that and we believe that we can participate in the Salvic work of Christ then why is it such a stretch to believe that those in Heaven are not also doing the same when in fact we have accounts of Gabriel and Micheal being used by the Lord on earth? Were they not used also? Was not elijah and Moses used by Christ when they appeared before the apostles to testify of the fact that the Lord is the Lord of the Living and not the Dead?

And to whom did Christ appear first and use to relay a message when he had arisen from his tomb? Man or Woman? So if your problem is that all of these were men then you have a prime example of how a woman was used in a very unique way… He could have chosen to go straight to the apostles Himself to appear to them directly instead, He appeared before a Woman and told her what to tell them…

I also ask you did Christ travail with only men or did he also travail with women? He travailed with both.

continued in next reply
 
Christ would not have broken any of His own commandments either, one of which was Honor thy Father and thy MOTHER…

I recently had to deal with this argumentation too. Christ did not need a Mother therefore she was nothing more than a brood mare. This exegesis and hypothesis is so unsound I do not even know where to begin… Suffice it to say this, if this was so true then why even give Mary the choice to begin with? But the fact remains that she was given the choice. In order for Christ to be who He was then He needed someone that was willing and that would understand the ramifications.

He needed to be able to be Wholly Man and Wholly God all at the same time. This was to fulfill prophecy, and it was so that in turn He could become the New Adam and His Mother the New Eve, therefore undoing the Stain on mankind. He therefore became the Last Sacrificial Lamb. With this we have the Hope of Salvation.

Mary was no brood mare, in fact far from it she worked in cooperative Grace with God to see that this happened for all of mankind, and what is more she was told and she knew it … All Nations shall call Her Blessed… It is because of Her Seed that we have the opportunity we have today to live by Grace. Those that Live by the Law are judged by the Law those that Live under Grace are then judged by Grace. This is in no way to say that we sshould not honor Christ when He told us to hold to His commands. But we are told that Faith alone will get us nowhere and works alone will get us nowhere… We live by Faith and Works and not that we shall boast but so that we shall show only glory to God at all times, as no man is worthy.

So therefore if Christ is not only you Lord God but with the understanding of the Sacred Scriptura also your Brother then you come to realize that in fact your Mother too is His… Mary is Mother to all that are His followers and that call themselves Christians. You tehn realize too that, if Christ has never once disobeyed his own commands then you also realize that He Himself would never dishonor His own Mother and neither should we.

Pax Christi
Mystic Rose
 
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